Technical Ducato P0401 P0402 P0236 P0238 and limp mode its 2017 Euro 6, EGR changed, What do I check next

[deejays]

@deejays that's not an avenue I would consider.if you failed to get it right then UK dealerships repair technique is 100% new selespeed, you need a mortgage to pay for it.
I wish we had knowledge of selespeed repairs.
.
My thoughts are to remove the air filter and MAF and it's pipework to reach the connector from the top.
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Stepping sideways I still wonder about reducing the desired opening of the LP EGR flap valve. Originally my thoughts were to change the internal cam. Problem is you can't remove the LP EGR without 'engine out' - unless someone comes up with the method. My other thought is to add a resistance in parallel with the temp probe to make the software close the flap down well away from fully open. I've been asking for ages for an engine wiring diagram but no success. If we knew the wire colours it should be possible to add a resistance in the main wiring harness at the top of the engine.

I think @MSjoberg may be correct in that it is not a big deal. I understand your reluctance @Fredastaire , but putting that aside, do you consider that it would be possible to remove the connector and sensor if the Selespeed accumulator was removed?

 

[Fredastaire]

I think @MSjoberg may be correct in that it is not a big deal. I understand your reluctance @Fredastaire , but putting that aside, do you consider that it would be possible to remove the connector and sensor if the Selespeed accumulator was removed?

I dont think it would give access as the connector is still well forward and access blocked by more selespeed parts. youn need to get two hands to the connector to both delatch each connector half and delatch from its metal support spade.

 

[Serrow225]

I dont think it would give access as the connector is still well forward and access blocked by more selespeed parts. youn need to get two hands to the connector to both delatch each connector half and delatch from its metal support spade.

I'm in agreement with you, to mess about with the comfortmatic system,to potentially not gain any advantage on EGR cooler,and be stuck with no gears ,I wouldn't risk it . Just my thoughts.

 

[Sillystu84]

150 multi jet manual

hi can anyone help me with this please so had faulty last week found split pipe from dpf to pressure sensors so fixed and was out for couple days now getting p0402 code, I’ve stripped van down to the lpegr which is covers in oil and starting to wonder if turbo seals failing, I’ve also notice not dpf is off that one the filter cones in side is hanging lower that rest,

Any help will be appreciated

• do u think turbo is knackered ?
• do you think dpf is knackered and blow pipe other day on pressure sensor

I’ll add some pics of codes from other day and codes that come up after a couple of days plus of lpegr and turbo

 

[deejays]

T

I dont think it would give access as the connector is still well forward and access blocked by more selespeed parts. youn need to get two hands to the connector to both delatch each connector half and delatch from its metal support spade.

Thanks @Fredastaire for the feedback. There will be a large number of people interested in this and it is good that you keep all informed with your progress. Hopefully you can find a way to this connector as it may lead to a breakthrough to a relatively cheap "fix". Cheers.

 

[deejays]

I'm in agreement with you, to mess about with the comfortmatic system,to potentially not gain any advantage on EGR cooler,and be stuck with no gears ,I wouldn't risk it . Just my thoughts.

Hi @Serrow225 I understand your reluctance, but to limit investigation by allowing our fear of a potentially negative outcome to not investigate every possibility stifles progress. What @Fredastaire is doing may be of help to numerous people. I am not suggesting he do something he is not comfortable with, but to report back the observed possibilities for those who may be more able/adventurous. Cheers.

 

[Fredastaire]

@Sillystu84 , the LP EGR is the suction side of the turbo. It takes clean fresh air from the air filter through the butterfly and takes 'hot' exhaust through the bottom flap type aperture. These are 'oil free'.
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It can't be turbo oil. A failed oil leaking turbo would blow oil through the intercooler pipes, (Inc intercooler radiator), then appear at the HP EGR.
.
Now I'm in to armchair theory, I've had a cleaned LP EGR in my hands so I'm working from memory. There is another infeed pipe at the top where it sucks engine crankcase fumes, I 'think' there might be an electric switched valve here.
.
So if you have oil around this LP EGR I suggest it's coming from the crankcase venting. Is it possible you've got wrecked piston rings?
.
The LP EGR needs a thorough clean, I would use caustic. The part you call a cone should be firm closed by a spring inside the black painted steel cover. Is it jammed part open?

.
I have a question where you can help me; were you able to remove the LP EGR wit the engine still in the van? I want to remove mine but cannot see how it's possible.

 

[Sillystu84]

@Sillystu84 , the LP EGR is the suction side of the turbo. It takes clean fresh air from the air filter through the butterfly and takes 'hot' exhaust through the bottom flap type aperture. These are 'oil free'.
.
It can't be turbo oil. A failed oil leaking turbo would blow oil through the intercooler pipes, (Inc intercooler radiator), then appear at the HP EGR.
.
Now I'm in to armchair theory, I've had a cleaned LP EGR in my hands so I'm working from memory. There is another infeed pipe at the top where it sucks engine crankcase fumes, I 'think' there might be an electric switched valve here.
.
So if you have oil around this LP EGR I suggest it's coming from the crankcase venting. Is it possible you've got wrecked piston rings?
.
The LP EGR needs a thorough clean, I would use caustic. The part you call a cone should be firm closed by a spring inside the black painted steel cover. Is it jammed part open?

.
I have a question where you can help me; were you able to remove the LP EGR wit the engine still in the van? I want to remove mine but cannot see how it's possible.

Hi thanks for reply,, I do have some oil in intercooler pipe I’ll attach a picture, To get lp egr off I’ve dropped the subframe and had to take dpf off as it’s busy inside,, I’ve left lower arms attached so it swings out way but I can fit my whole body under now and easy to get to lp egr

 

[Piotr129]

I have a question for @aschoots. What's the situation in the last few months with your cars? I remember that your LP Egr is delete. Please share your observations.

 

[theoneandonly]

@Sillystu84 , the LP EGR is the suction side of the turbo. It takes clean fresh air from the air filter through the butterfly and takes 'hot' exhaust through the bottom flap type aperture. These are 'oil free'.
.
It can't be turbo oil. A failed oil leaking turbo would blow oil through the intercooler pipes, (Inc intercooler radiator), then appear at the HP EGR.
.
Now I'm in to armchair theory, I've had a cleaned LP EGR in my hands so I'm working from memory. There is another infeed pipe at the top where it sucks engine crankcase fumes, I 'think' there might be an electric switched valve here.
.
So if you have oil around this LP EGR I suggest it's coming from the crankcase venting. Is it possible you've got wrecked piston rings?
.
The LP EGR needs a thorough clean, I would use caustic. The part you call a cone should be firm closed by a spring inside the black painted steel cover. Is it jammed part open?

.

For the Aluminium parts it would be safer to clean with a commercial product. Caustic OK on the Stainless stuff

Hi thanks for reply,, I do have some oil in intercooler pipe I’ll attach a picture,

Where is oil coming from? Is the lpegr cooler just sooty or oily, ie is oil also coming through the exhaust system or as fred says via crankcase breather. both internally and via a split hose to the outside world. Parts of the lpegr valve maybe just sooty so exhaust not involved but clarity needed. I once had a litre of oil in a Norton air filter as the crankcase breather feed direct to filter, the Ducato will be a damned sight more complex. I doubt if a schematic is available, or even one of fredastaires famous diagrams.

 

[Sillystu84]

For the Aluminium parts it would be safer to clean with a commercial product. Caustic OK on the Stainless stuff Where is oil coming from? Is the lpegr cooler just sooty or oily, ie is oil also coming through the exhaust system or as fred says via crankcase breather. both internally and via a split hose to the outside world. Parts of the lpegr valve maybe just sooty so exhaust not involved but clarity needed. I once had a litre of oil in a Norton air filter as the crankcase breather feed direct to filter, the Ducato will be a damned sight more complex. I doubt if a schematic is available, or even one of fredastaires famous diagrams.

For the Aluminium parts it would be safer to clean with a commercial product. Caustic OK on the Stainless stuff Where is oil coming from? Is the lpegr cooler just sooty or oily, ie is oil also coming through the exhaust system or as fred says via crankcase breather. both internally and via a split hose to the outside world. Parts of the lpegr valve maybe just sooty so exhaust not involved but clarity needed. I once had a litre of oil in a Norton air filter as the crankcase breather feed direct to filter, the Ducato will be a damned sight more complex. I doubt if a schematic is available, or even one of fredastaires famous diagrams.

 

[Fredastaire]

@Sillystu84 to add to previous comments, it you wipe out the exhaust silencer tailpipe; is it near spotless or dry sooty or oily sooty?
.
If your DPF is ok it will be near spotless
.
If its slightly dry sooty it indicates a cracked element inside the DPF, (caused by the original Fiat software regen temperature burning it)
.
If its oily then I would guess severe internal engine problems.
.
Regarding the LP EGR, I suggest removing the black cove plate so you can see the internal motor drive and cam system. you can then carefully clean the whole unit being aware to keep cleaning fluids away from the internal motor drive gears / motor. Last year I bought a spare LP EGR from Ebay, it arrived spotless; then I took the cover off; they had obviously totally cleaned the unit and being unaware of its bottom vent had blasted water at the whole unit before putting it on the shelf. being part full of water and not being sold for a while it has severe internal rust on the gears rendering it scrap.
.
You have mentioned oil in the intercooler pipes, I suggest you remove the intercooler radiator and flush it through. My garage said to use petrol to flush clean as its non damaging, they said that other cleaners like caustic will destroy the aluminium core.
.
Your second photo above shows the elbow from the cooler and shows the LP EGR temperature sensor. @theoneandonly this is the point at which I was thinking of filling with Caustic to flush the LP EGR cooler 'tea strainer mesh'. if only it were easy to remove the LP EGR without dropping the subframe.

 

[Fredastaire]

@Sillystu84 now please can I ask for information to help others of us get at and remove the LP EGR.
.
Can you tell us what holds the LP EGR in place? I can see a bracket with two M6(?) bolts, besides pipes are these the only two location fixings?
.
I can see on mine the two alley key bolts holding the bottom elbow.
.
Im not sure how the LP EGR fastens to the turbo, your is a 150 engine which might be different to a 130 engine, how did your come off?
.
Can you add photos of whatever is connected on top for the crankcase vent system.
.
For those of us with a blocked cooler, Im wondering if its possible to remove the engine bottom stabiliser tie bar, undo the exhaust silencer then be able to tilt the engine forwards to allow access to the LP EGR to enable removing it. Then we can fill the elbow with caustic easily, (the bottom exhaust flexi pipe needs blocking off to enable filling up).

 

[Sillystu84]

@Sillystu84 to add to previous comments, it you wipe out the exhaust silencer tailpipe; is it near spotless or dry sooty or oily sooty?
.
If your DPF is ok it will be near spotless
.
If its slightly dry sooty it indicates a cracked element inside the DPF, (caused by the original Fiat software regen temperature burning it)
.
If its oily then I would guess severe internal engine problems.
.
Regarding the LP EGR, I suggest removing the black cove plate so you can see the internal motor drive and cam system. you can then carefully clean the whole unit being aware to keep cleaning fluids away from the internal motor drive gears / motor. Last year I bought a spare LP EGR from Ebay, it arrived spotless; then I took the cover off; they had obviously totally cleaned the unit and being unaware of its bottom vent had blasted water at the whole unit before putting it on the shelf. being part full of water and not being sold for a while it has severe internal rust on the gears rendering it scrap.
.
You have mentioned oil in the intercooler pipes, I suggest you remove the intercooler radiator and flush it through. My garage said to use petrol to flush clean as its non damaging, they said that other cleaners like caustic will destroy the aluminium core.
.
Your second photo above shows the elbow from the cooler and shows the LP EGR temperature sensor. @theoneandonly this is the point at which I was thinking of filling with Caustic to flush the LP EGR cooler 'tea strainer mesh'. if only it were easy to remove the LP EGR without dropping the subframe.

@Sillystu84 now please can I ask for information to help others of us get at and remove the LP EGR.
.
Can you tell us what holds the LP EGR in place? I can see a bracket with two M6(?) bolts, besides pipes are these the only two location fixings?
.
I can see on mine the two alley key bolts holding the bottom elbow.
.
Im not sure how the LP EGR fastens to the turbo, your is a 150 engine which might be different to a 130 engine, how did your come off?
.
Can you add photos of whatever is connected on top for the crankcase vent system.
.
For those of us with a blocked cooler, Im wondering if its possible to remove the engine bottom stabiliser tie bar, undo the exhaust silencer then be able to tilt the engine forwards to allow access to the LP EGR to enable removing it. Then we can fill the elbow with caustic easily, (the bottom exhaust flexi pipe needs blocking off to enable filling up).

Hi fredastair

So I suspect the dpf is damaged as one of the cone filters inside is hanging down below others and I can push it back up and it drops again so new dpf needed,,, There is a little black dry spot at exhaust tip I wouldn’t says it’s massive amounts but still some there,


As for the oil all over the lp egr its been coming from the joint of the metal intercooler pipe as for some reason they didn’t use a clamp on that pipe it just has an o ring inside and just pushed onto turbo and bolts to side of block I think oil has come from the breather pipe on rocker cover

As for removal of lp egr you need to drop subframe it makes life so much easier and if you remove battery box you can sit right under the van and work on it a lot better ( sub frame is easy to remove/drop 4 bolts holding steering rack, tack track rod ends out and undo the 6bolts holding frame, I’ve left lower arms on so I can swing/move frame around if needed,

Lp egr removal If I remember rightly yes there’s the two bolts on brackets, you need to take all the pipes off it as well and this is where I’m a bit confused as I don’t think this was put on right anyway in the first place as mine just come away from turbo but there is a exhaust clamp on the turbo side which was doing nothing and I suspect that clamp is meant to be holding the lp egr onto turbo,, Thinking need to find a workshop manual to find out if it’s meant to clamp onto turbo or just pushed onto it,,

I’ll get some more pics when back at van

 

[MSjoberg]

@Fredastaire @theoneandonly . Thank you both (and many other contributors) for your commitment and valuable contributions to this thread! I'm sure many of us have learnt a lot from it.

My apologies if the answer to my question is there and I have missed it: is it confirmed that high regen temps have caused DPF cracking, or is it an assumption?

The DPF temperature is measured by the ECU and must surely be an important parameter in the regen control algorithm. I would be a bit surprised if Fiat hadn't managed to produce (using e.g. existing subject matter knowledge plus laboratory and road tests during development) an algorithm good enough to avoid harmful DPF temperatures, and more surprised if they hadn't even implemented a high temperature alarm for the DPF. But less surprised if there were manufacturing errors in some DPF examples or lots.

 

[aschoots]

Hi all,

I have gone ahead and applied an "LP-EGR delete" ECU update. @Poachersmoon has reported earlier he has a LP- and HP-EGR delete done (in NZ by Peter James Tuning) and had no problems in a 5 hour trip. Since the LP-EGR delete I have now done around 1100km without any problems.

The proces is to unplug the LP-EGR connector so it won't move. This way no 'clean' exhaust fumes are transported back to the turbo inlet via the cooler anymore, which means the cooler (mesh) won't get blocked. And more importantly, the turbo and engine will only see clean air (apart from HP-EGR recycle). To prevent errors and emergency running the ECU update cancels 24 errors. I am told the following list is blocked: 0409, 0402, 0401, 0101, C405, 0489, 0488, 0486, 061D, 2111, 2112, 060E, 0638, 0639, 061F, 044A, 045B, 045A, 045E, 041A, 046E, 041A (again), 213B, 213A.

The ECU update is done via an Alientech Powergate tool: a) download the original ECU file to the Powergate, b) send the file to the tuner, c) tuner 'mods' the file and sends it back, d) upload the modded file to the Powergate, e) upload the mod to the ECU. Nice thing is the Powergate can hold multiple files, mine has the original (slightly tuned) ECU file, the LP-EGR delete, and the LP- and HP-EGR delete. It is an easy 20min proces to switch between ECU files. I can e.g. choose to switch back to original before going for MOT testing (or "apk" as is called in NL).

I know I will need to track 'health' of the engine (more) myself now these errors are cancelled. I am told 22 of these 24 are directly related to LP- and HP-EGR operation which should not give problems, the other two are for communication with cruise control and the MAF sensor.
I want to check / this, and prepare a periodic manual check of engine health to ensure this error cancel does not hide anything serious from being detected.

But, so far, so good.

Attached are some MES recordings from the 1100km trip this weekend and a short test / check drive tonight.

Update: Did not travel much between half May when I did de LP-EGR "delete" (unplug would be a better word) and September. Just finished a 2500km holiday through the UK, had one 'limp mode' instance where it reported P0237 and P0238. One of them may have existed for a longer period. Reset the errors, and had no more trouble in the following 1000+ km or so. Made some recording with MES, see attachements.

cheers, Alex

 

[theoneandonly]

@Fredastaire @theoneandonly . Thank you both (and many other contributors) for your commitment and valuable contributions to this thread! I'm sure many of us have learnt a lot from it.

My apologies if the answer to my question is there and I have missed it: is it confirmed that high regen temps have caused DPF cracking, or is it an assumption?

The DPF temperature is measured by the ECU and must surely be an important parameter in the regen control algorithm. I would be a bit surprised if Fiat hadn't managed to produce (using e.g. existing subject matter knowledge plus laboratory and road tests during development) an algorithm good enough to avoid harmful DPF temperatures, and more surprised if they hadn't even implemented a high temperature alarm for the DPF. But less surprised if there were manufacturing errors in some DPF examples or lots.

Having read what i can about the implementation of the twin egr and Fiats general competance on ecu programming i will say thier competance is normally well regarded with error trapping in areas where other manufacturers didnt bother ( but 10 years difference).
The implementation was relatively quick and 3 serious recalls within a year related to exhaust issues. Now did they have sufficient background info on which to fully understand all the processes. I know that before march 2019 (when mine had been updated to V28 either before march 18 when first registered or at first service) there had been 7 iterations of software and one after. Now to assumption that excessive temperature cracks the DPF ceramic matrix, Not really an assumption but application of knowledge in a simular field. Now current known regens have never exceeded 700C. Now next bit is pure guess work it wouldn't surprise me that initial regen was too low then too large an increase and then manufacturing deffects in some DPF lots or vica versa. All guess work. From Looking at a particular VW engine I also feel that Fiat may have much less control over injection. I have seen very little actual regen processes to be conclusive but from mine and reported results i think the temperature range of regen is quite large ie is it really in control over a wide range of engines.

As an aside the first paper i've read concidering the possibility of Twin Egr system was dated 2007. They are now mainstream in marine engines.

 

[Fredastaire]

@Sillystu84 , I wonder if I'm too late on your rebuild to ask another but of help?
.
We have been trying to locate a wiring diagram for the last year but can't find one.
.
Have you still got Access to the LP EGR temperature probe connector? I would like to know the wire colours of the engine harness. I'm theorising to add a resistance across these two wires to see if a high temp reading by the ECU might reduce the LP EGR flap opening and slow or stop the exhaust input.
.
I'm also wanting the wires detail to the LP EGR main unit
.
Best would be colour photos of the harness wires if at all possible?
.
Kind regards

 

[Sillystu84]

@Sillystu84 , I wonder if I'm too late on your rebuild to ask another but of help?
.
We have been trying to locate a wiring diagram for the last year but can't find one.
.
Have you still got Access to the LP EGR temperature probe connector? I would like to know the wire colours of the engine harness. I'm theorising to add a resistance across these two wires to see if a high temp reading by the ECU might reduce the LP EGR flap opening and slow or stop the exhaust input.
.
I'm also wanting the wires detail to the LP EGR main unit
.
Best would be colour photos of the harness wires if at all possible?
.
Kind regards

@Fredastaire

hi mate I’m back at van tomorrow to start rebuild so I’ll have a look at wires and will take some pics of both and colors for you, is that the temp one you after in pic I’ve circled red ??


I’m thinking of buying a digital Haynes workshop manual would it not have it there ?

 

[Fredastaire]

@Sillystu84 yes that's the temp probe. I'm wondering why it's there and what does it do? My guess is that if the exhaust temp rises too high that it could pass hot gas in to the turbo and following plastic intercooler pipes. I'm guessing it's a policeman to cause the LP EGR flap to close down.
.
That's why I want to trial a resistance in parallel to mimic a high temp and see if the flap closes.
.
There again I might be completely wrong....
.
If you could look back many pages of this post I added photos of the inside of this LP EGR to show the internal cam that actuates the butterfly (which strangles the engine causing codes and limp), I was questioning about making a different cam but as removing the EGR is diabolical the thought is as far as I've got.
.
Have you removed and cleaned the EGR cooler mesh?