Technical Ducato P0401 P0402 P0236 P0238 and limp mode its 2017 Euro 6, EGR changed, What do I check next

[MSjoberg]

BTW I am waiting on a call back from Motapart who supply the oils to the dealer who services our MH and getting some further advice on whether low SAPS is recommended for this particular engine - I will let you know what I find out shortly......

The Fiat manual specifies ACEA C2 quality, which is Mid SAPS

 

[theoneandonly]

@athoirs Have you done the wipe exhaust with kitchen roll test yet, clean or sooty. Please check for error codes again.
Yet more tick boxes
130,150,180
comfortmatic or manual (in post)
From first 3 graphs
The HPEGR is functioning it is not stuck open or closed , we could do a specific test to check actual versus required.
the LPEGR graphs are the early signs of a blocked lpegr cooler, there are no error codes to support this but the lpegr temperature results are low and the valve is swinging from open to closed.

 

[Serrow225]

Just to get one of you thinking.
.
I've filled up my spare LP cooler with water. I used a rubber glove secured with rubber band to stopper the bottom end. Then holding horizontal as it would be installed, the Wife removed the glove and the excess water drained away thus leaving the pool of water in the lower zone of the tank.
.
Then drained out this 'pool of water' being circa 110 ml.
.
So if insitu cleaning were possible this is what would remain in the tank - to need removal - but how?
.
I'm also questioning if one could cut a rectangle of steel bulkhead away to reach the elbow that links the cooler to the actual LP EGR itself?
.
So.... I'm thinking....

Another liquid could be brake/ carb cleaner , you can buy it in a container 5ltrs I think, this should evaporate quickly and when I sprayed it on to my blocked cooler tea strainer removed a lot of gunk
I thought if I can fill the LP cooler and then empty and refill every 1hr or so hopefully the 75%that drains back will clean out matrix and mesh screen? I suppose leaving 110ml in dish would give a estimate on evaporation time .

 

[athoirs]

@athoirs Have you done the wipe exhaust with kitchen roll test yet, clean or sooty. Please check for error codes again.
Yet more tick boxes
130,150,180
comfortmatic or manual (in post)
From first 3 graphs
The HPEGR is functioning it is not stuck open or closed , we could do a specific test to check actual versus required.
the LPEGR graphs are the early signs of a blocked lpegr cooler, there are no error codes to support this but the lpegr temperature results are low and the valve is swinging from open to closed.

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Thanks for your work reviewing my results and confirms just what I thought.
It's a 130 manual.
Got to say sooty ( just a little)
V32
At the end of that run there were no actual or stored errors.
Gone on to the expensive diesel with additive ( a hard ask for a Scotsman!)
Got a long Holliday run to Spain in a couple of weeks, but I'm going to do another longer test run before I go.

Andy

 

[Fredastaire]

@Serrow225 , I've had van back in ramps again and had another peruse with a torch.
.
My thoughts are to remove the battery and it's plastic tank and support strapping.
.
This as suggested by @kangexpress gives access to the elbow with its temp sensor.
.
Remove temp sensor.
.
Undo the two hex socket fixing screws to allow the elbow to drop a little. This for safety to make certain that you don't fill up the induction with cleaning fluid.
.
Undo the ring clamp of the lower cooler flexi, (DPF lowered joint) ,ease back and cap off the flexi with the wrist section of a rubber glove and rubber bands.
.
Use syringe and fill with hot Caustic. Wait 10 minutes and drain, cap off the lower end and refill with fresh water, drain down and repeat this flushing.
.
Use a syringe with pipe down the elbow and suck out that 100ml of puddle.
.
Fit new gasket to the elbow joint and reassemble all and test.
.
To conclude it's all mental theorising as I havnt done it.
.
Remember I have cleaned my original cooler with caustic, I've also used an endoscope to look inside so know it's clean now.
.
Is anyone brave enough to try?

 

[Serrow225]

@Serrow225 , I've had van back in ramps again and had another peruse with a torch.
.
My thoughts are to remove the battery and it's plastic tank and support strapping.
.
This as suggested by @kangexpress gives access to the elbow with its temp sensor.
.
Remove temp sensor.
.
Undo the two hex socket fixing screws to allow the elbow to drop a little. This for safety to make certain that you don't fill up the induction with cleaning fluid.
.
Undo the ring clamp of the lower cooler flexi, (DPF lowered joint) ,ease back and cap off the flexi with the wrist section of a rubber glove and rubber bands.
.
Use syringe and fill with hot Caustic. Wait 10 minutes and drain, cap off the lower end and refill with fresh water, drain down and repeat this flushing.
.
Use a syringe with pipe down the elbow and suck out that 100ml of puddle.
.
Fit new gasket to the elbow joint and reassemble all and test.
.
To conclude it's all mental theorising as I havnt done it.
.
Remember I have cleaned my original cooler with caustic, I've also used an endoscope to look inside so know it's clean now.
.
Is anyone brave enough to try?

If it works, it will save a few thousand pounds , my thoughts are from how my van was behaving with the original LP cooler, and to my surprise just how little soot was causing so much trouble, that even clearing 50% of soot would make a massive impact on it's running,so as you say who's going to try it , hopefully I've still got more time yet before I'm facing that decision.

 

[theoneandonly]

@Serrow225 , I've had van back in ramps again and had another peruse with a torch.
.
My thoughts are to remove the battery and it's plastic tank and support strapping.
.
This as suggested by @kangexpress gives access to the elbow with its temp sensor.
.
Remove temp sensor.
.
Undo the two hex socket fixing screws to allow the elbow to drop a little. This for safety to make certain that you don't fill up the induction with cleaning fluid.
.
Undo the ring clamp of the lower cooler flexi, (DPF lowered joint) ,ease back and cap off the flexi with the wrist section of a rubber glove and rubber bands.
.
Use syringe and fill with hot Caustic. Wait 10 minutes and drain, cap off the lower end and refill with fresh water, drain down and repeat this flushing.
.
Use a syringe with pipe down the elbow and suck out that 100ml of puddle.
.
Fit new gasket to the elbow joint and reassemble all and test.
.
To conclude it's all mental theorising as I havnt done it.
.
Remember I have cleaned my original cooler with caustic, I've also used an endoscope to look inside so know it's clean now.
.
Is anyone brave enough to try?

My three pennysworth . FredAstaire needs to do it now.
what are your options
1 pay to have new cooler fitted
2 try your method outlined above with caustic soada
3 try your method outlined above with alternative cleaner (what ever that may be)
4 try your method outlined above with Launch cleaner as used by Jimmy oriely on youtube
5 Bell Jimmy oriely on youtube and ask for quote. (PS hes based in Luton but mobile)
6 Have heart attack after youve got a nice shinny quote from Fiat to have new DPF and cooler fitted.

youve allready survived 6 ,1 may be too far away time wise
3 is the method you were hoping for 2 years ago when replacing /cleaning the cooler was first mooted.
So when are doing it next week?

 

[aln1337]

Anyone tried carbon cleaning machine on these ?

 

[Serrow225]

Hi , re DPF and MOT , I've taken into MOT test 2 times , with a cracked DPF and it passed no problem, last MOT emission read out was slightly higher than 1 st time ? It's going in again on Friday so hopefully I still have no issues!

Just a update to faulty DPF and MOT , my van just had smoke test and passed , looking at last year's MOT it's actually improved ( miller's additive this year ?)but oddly I cleaned tail pipe before test , 5 miles round trip , check on return soot on my finger,but no problem passing MOT !

 

[Fredastaire]

@kangexpress please can you give me a quick description of removing the battery box to reach the LP EGR temp sensor. Do I need to remove the front seats?
.
I'm preparing to investigate cleaning the LP EGR cooler by insitu filling it full of caustic then flushing through with clean water.
.
I've bought a spare temp sensor and the gasket between the elbow and EGR etc. I'm now going to fill up my old cooler and flex pipe so I know the volume needed.

 

[proppb]

@kangexpress please can you give me a quick description of removing the battery box to reach the LP EGR temp sensor. Do I need to remove the front seats?
.
I'm preparing to investigate cleaning the LP EGR cooler by insitu filling it full of caustic then flushing through with clean water.
.
I've bought a spare temp sensor and the gasket between the elbow and EGR etc. I'm now going to fill up my old cooler and flex pipe so I know the volume needed.

Good luck I am sure we are all watching with fingers crossed.

 

[proppb]

@kangexpress please can you give me a quick description of removing the battery box to reach the LP EGR temp sensor. Do I need to remove the front seats?
.
I'm preparing to investigate cleaning the LP EGR cooler by insitu filling it full of caustic then flushing through with clean water.
.
I've bought a spare temp sensor and the gasket between the elbow and EGR etc. I'm now going to fill up my old cooler and flex pipe so I know the volume needed.

@Fredastaire,when you do this could you please document it with pictures so we can replicate it.

 

[Fredastaire]

Hi @proppb ,
I've actually hit a problem for me. I've taken the battery and battery box out to investigate.
I can see and reach the temp probe however I can't reach the probe plug/ socket at the harness.
.
Mine is comfortmatic. The gearbox top is covered in mechanics. I can see the plug/ socket however I can't get at it. Maybe the arm of a three year old could reach it!
.
You need to unplug it because the cable/ wire has to rotate as you unscrew the sensor.
.
The harness connector is underneath the stainless EGR feed pipe for the HP EGR feed.
.
That pipe is underneath the Intercooler pipe
.
I have to see if it's possible to take the air filter box out, take the MAF out.
.
Maybe it might then be possible to reach the connector?
.
To me it's clear that you have to remove the temp sensor AND undo the elbow from the LP EGR.
.
Using caustic whilst it's ok for cleaning stainless of the pipework it must be kept clear of aluminium as it has the ability to dissolve it. Hence why I think the filler hole has to be overflow hole as well
.
The LP EGR body , I think, is aluminium.
.

 

[theoneandonly]

Hi @proppb ,
I've actually hit a problem for me. I've taken the battery and battery box out to investigate.
I can see and reach the temp probe however I can't reach the probe plug/ socket at the harness.
.
Mine is comfortmatic. The gearbox top is covered in mechanics. I can see the plug/ socket however I can't get at it. Maybe the arm of a three year old could reach it!
.
You need to unplug it because the cable/ wire has to rotate as you unscrew the sensor.
.
The harness connector is underneath the stainless EGR feed pipe for the HP EGR feed.
.
That pipe is underneath the Intercooler pipe
.
I have to see if it's possible to take the air filter box out, take the MAF out.
.
Maybe it might then be possible to reach the connector?
.
To me it's clear that you have to remove the temp sensor AND undo the elbow from the LP EGR.
.
Using caustic whilst it's ok for cleaning stainless of the pipework it must be kept clear of aluminium as it has the ability to dissolve it. Hence why I think the filler hole has to be overflow hole as well
.
The LP EGR body , I think, is aluminium.
.

Would the connector be accessible with a manual box and none of the comformatic gubbins.
There are commercial products that would do the cleaning and dont attack Aluminium. They typically use a spray gun system (Aprox £300, so not cheap) One version does come in spray cans for DIY use.

 

[Serrow225]

Hi @proppb ,
I've actually hit a problem for me. I've taken the battery and battery box out to investigate.
I can see and reach the temp probe however I can't reach the probe plug/ socket at the harness.
.
Mine is comfortmatic. The gearbox top is covered in mechanics. I can see the plug/ socket however I can't get at it. Maybe the arm of a three year old could reach it!
.
You need to unplug it because the cable/ wire has to rotate as you unscrew the sensor.
.
The harness connector is underneath the stainless EGR feed pipe for the HP EGR feed.
.
That pipe is underneath the Intercooler pipe
.
I have to see if it's possible to take the air filter box out, take the MAF out.
.
Maybe it might then be possible to reach the connector?
.
To me it's clear that you have to remove the temp sensor AND undo the elbow from the LP EGR.
.
Using caustic whilst it's ok for cleaning stainless of the pipework it must be kept clear of aluminium as it has the ability to dissolve it. Hence why I think the filler hole has to be overflow hole as well
.
The LP EGR body , I think, is aluminium.
.

If it's not possible to reach connection plug, would it be possible to cut cable and fit a connector inline at accessable point ? If there is no other option!

 

[Fredastaire]

@Serrow225 @proppb the photo was taken with me lying on my back, looking upwards at the temp sensor (white arrow) and the connector (yellow arrow). The battery and its box is out.
It probably shows how diabolical this area is to reach.
.
No its not possible (in my opinion), to cut the wires and add a connector, this would leave a weighty 'thing' in fresh air which would no doubt rattle around and break the wires at a later time.
.
Maybe if you have a manual gearbox you may reach the connector as I suspect our previous member must have done (cant remember his name a I type).
.
@theoneandonly , have you photos of a removed engine on the workshop floor which might help us understand?

 

[Serrow225]

@Serrow225 @proppb the photo was taken with me lying on my back, looking upwards at the temp sensor (white arrow) and the connector (yellow arrow). The battery and its box is out.
It probably shows how diabolical this area is to reach.
.
No its not possible (in my opinion), to cut the wires and add a connector, this would leave a weighty 'thing' in fresh air which would no doubt rattle around and break the wires at a later time.
.
Maybe if you have a manual gearbox you may reach the connector as I suspect our previous member must have done (cant remember his name a I type).
.
@theoneandonly , have you photos of a removed engine on the workshop floor which might help us understand?

@Fredastaire I see what you mean , it was definitely built as a engine out job to work on it (fiat keeping repair work at dealership)
Looking more and more like not possible to do anything ?
I'll keep fingers crossed you find a way .

 

[deejays]

@Serrow225 @proppb the photo was taken with me lying on my back, looking upwards at the temp sensor (white arrow) and the connector (yellow arrow). The battery and its box is out.
It probably shows how diabolical this area is to reach.
.
No its not possible (in my opinion), to cut the wires and add a connector, this would leave a weighty 'thing' in fresh air which would no doubt rattle around and break the wires at a later time.
.
Maybe if you have a manual gearbox you may reach the connector as I suspect our previous member must have done (cant remember his name a I type).
.
@theoneandonly , have you photos of a removed engine on the workshop floor which might help us understand?

Could you access the connector and remove it if the Selespeed accumulator was unscrewed and removed? @kangexpress is the person who has the manual version and reported being able to access and remove the sensor. Removing the accumulator obviously involves depressurising, bleeding and refilling the hydraulic fluid, but would be considerably less expense and time compared to the alternative. Thoughts?

 

[Fredastaire]

@deejays that's not an avenue I would consider.if you failed to get it right then UK dealerships repair technique is 100% new selespeed, you need a mortgage to pay for it.
I wish we had knowledge of selespeed repairs.
.
My thoughts are to remove the air filter and MAF and it's pipework to reach the connector from the top.
.
Stepping sideways I still wonder about reducing the desired opening of the LP EGR flap valve. Originally my thoughts were to change the internal cam. Problem is you can't remove the LP EGR without 'engine out' - unless someone comes up with the method. My other thought is to add a resistance in parallel with the temp probe to make the software close the flap down well away from fully open. I've been asking for ages for an engine wiring diagram but no success. If we knew the wire colours it should be possible to add a resistance in the main wiring harness at the top of the engine.

 

[MSjoberg]

Removing the pressure accumulator shouldn't be a big issue. It loses capacity over the years and should be replaced sooner or later. Some recommend 10 year intervals, others recommend shorter. I have not replaced mine yet but seen it described as an easy operation by those who has.