Technical Ducato P0401 P0402 P0236 P0238 and limp mode its 2017 Euro 6, EGR changed, What do I check next

[Serrow225]

All attempts/ ideas welcomed. As alternatives propriety DPF cleaners squirted up may be safer than high pressure caustic (not reccomended). The resting position of the valves (cold) would be usefull to know to prevent soot / caustic / rinse water being blasted down the turbo.

My compressor is around 7bar and after air passed though matrix and mesh it's probably dropped to around 2 bar and is defused a lot ,so I don't think any damage to LP egr possible, I'm going to tap into air line a tin of carburettor spray( should be ok to any plastic or seals) cleaner with total evaporation.
Worth a try !

 

[Fredastaire]

My original thoughts on Insitu cleaning was to undo the elbow under the cooler, having removed temp probe first; then pump in caustic thro the elbow top and watching till it overflowed out the probe hole.
I came to a standstill because I couldn't undo the probe because I couldn't unplug it's wire. Plus a bad back.
I now have a way of plugging in the probe wires conveniently at the engine top so could afford to just snip the probe wires and solder an extension wire up to my new socket.
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I have a new probe plus new elbow gasket in case anyone needs part numbers.
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Maybe we could have a spacer elbow with tee piece at the elbow/ EGR joint?

 

[Serrow225]

My original thoughts on Insitu cleaning was to undo the elbow under the cooler, having removed temp probe first; then pump in caustic thro the elbow top and watching till it overflowed out the probe hole.
I came to a standstill because I couldn't undo the probe because I couldn't unplug it's wire. Plus a bad back.
I now have a way of plugging in the probe wires conveniently at the engine top so could afford to just snip the probe wires and solder an extension wire up to my new socket.
.
I have a new probe plus new elbow gasket in case anyone needs part numbers.
.
Maybe we could have a spacer elbow with tee piece at the elbow/ EGR joint?

My entry point is from under van disconnect flex pipe off DPF hopefully get enough clearance to push rubber pipe ( fuel line ) up to the matrix inside cooler , plug up cooler pipe , then inject air and cleaner , twisting pipe around I found spreads air flow over greater area . Hopefully it should improve situation and cleaner evaporated,no risk to turbo or hydraulic lock .
But it's still a theory? Ideally I still want to get DPF replaced but my garage doesn't seem to be forthcoming with prices or time . Maybe they don't want the job !

 

[Serrow225]

So I've got quote to get van back to correct set up for anyone who wants to get a idea of how much it is at fiat professional garage.
Or if you need part numbers for reference.

 

[Jiwawa]

My quote has few more parts on it. It includes the MAP as I have the 'wrong' one fitted (from new). I'm not panicking just yet as I'm talking to Fiat Customer Care (onto whom I was fobbed having contacted the CEO).

 

[Serrow225]

My quote has few more parts on it. It includes the MAP as I have the 'wrong' one fitted (from new). I'm not panicking just yet as I'm talking to Fiat Customer Care (onto whom I was fobbed having contacted the CEO).

View attachment 462798

I see they also a " if injectors need changing" that will go over a £10k bill . Hope you get something towards it from fiat!

 

[Jiwawa]

They changed the injectors a year ago, along with the HPEGR valve and cooler. Within 8 months I had the problem again.

 

[theoneandonly]

My quote has few more parts on it. It includes the MAP as I have the 'wrong' one fitted (from new). I'm not panicking just yet as I'm talking to Fiat Customer Care (onto whom I was fobbed having contacted the CEO).

View attachment 462798

Glad to see contacting CEO Has resulted in some movement from the impasse with local dealer. Now time to ask for Fiat support. If it was a commercial vehicle it would be straight down the scrapyard but it isnt and fiat went after the lucrative Mhome buiseness, this is not standard wear and tear but result of initial design problems.

 

[Serrow225]

Glad to see contacting CEO Has resulted in some movement from the impasse with local dealer. Now time to ask for Fiat support. If it was a commercial vehicle it would be straight down the scrapyard but it isnt and fiat went after the lucrative Mhome buiseness, this is not standard wear and tear but result of initial design problems.

The service manager at my fiat professional garage had a conversation with me on Tuesday and did say have I tried going down the warranty route, but I'm sceptical I'd get anywhere,could take years and fighting. Life is to short sometimes for all the stress...

 

[Jiwawa]

The service manager at my fiat professional garage had a conversation with me on Tuesday and did say have I tried going down the warranty route, but I'm sceptical I'd get anywhere,could take years and fighting. Life is to short sometimes for all the stress...

Is yours still under warranty @Serrow225 ? I'd definitely be going down that route if mine was. I first had the problem when it was just over 6yrs.

 

[Serrow225]

Is yours still under warranty @Serrow225 ? I'd definitely be going down that route if mine was. I first had the problem when it was just over 6yrs.

2018 , we got it 2021 ... But no service history.
Just service from motorhome dealer.
So I know fiat will have there legal side say .. well if we'd seen it as per service schedule it would have been flagged up ! .. and without going into personal details we have spent two years so far in a legal battle with local health authority over malpractice.. so we don't want another battle now .

 

[Piotr129]

I even found the Original ECU Software in the Web If you search for it. On a lot of Sites for Chiptuning you can also purchase and download the unmodified Original ECU Softwarefiles.

I wonder what the differences are between the software versions, between the older v28 or v25 and the newest v32. Since it is possible to download the software, maybe someone has the possibility and knowledge to compare both programs, e.g. in the WinOLS program.

 

[theoneandonly]

I wonder what the differences are between the software versions, between the older v28 or v25 and the newest v32. Since it is possible to download the software, maybe someone has the possibility and knowledge to compare both programs, e.g. in the WinOLS program.

Apart from a vehicle with a known Version where is it possible to obtain/ down load the software. Anybody with the software and or knowledge please stand up

 

[Fredastaire]

Interesting to note that Fiat acknowledge that they fitted the wrong MAP! I found that early on, a fact that other members confirmed.
.
On searching for a way around our problems I've tried adding a resistor to the LP EGR temp probe. That's not proved successful so far.
.
Which brings me to another thought that I had a while back, that is to change the cam profile in the LP EGR. Thought I'd add my drawing again to see if it generates any comments. It would stop the butterfly operating.

 

[Jiwawa]

My quote has few more parts on it. It includes the MAP as I have the 'wrong' one fitted (from new).

Interesting to note that Fiat acknowledge that they fitted the wrong MAP!

@Fredastaire if your comment was directed at me, Fiat hasn't acknowledged any such thing - I only know it from reading the part number on the sensor and from what I've read here.

As I understand it the 'wrong' MAP sensor was suspect in causing damage to the early design DPFs (confirmation of that would be useful) so it adds a further layer of Fiat culpability for the problem.

 

[Piotr129]

Interesting to note that Fiat acknowledge that they fitted the wrong MAP! I found that early on, a fact that other members confirmed.
.
On searching for a way around our problems I've tried adding a resistor to the LP EGR temp probe. That's not proved successful so far.
.
Which brings me to another thought that I had a while back, that is to change the cam profile in the LP EGR. Thought I'd add my drawing again to see if it generates any comments. It would stop the butterfly operating.View attachment 462902

In my opinion the modified cam idea won't work. The Egr system is based on the measurement of the air mass from the MAF sensor. When the air cooler is clogged, the ECU sees an incorrect air mass, which causes the EGR valve to open more.
If the EGR system does not meet the airflow requirements, the ECU requires a larger valve opening, when this is not enough it activates the throttle. That is why most errors, if not all, in the error description have quite strange values of the required airflow.
Which could also be a software bug. If I'm wrong, someone correct me. I am thinking about doing some bypass, behind the LPEGR radiator, When the radiator is clogged, the engine will be able to draw air from the air filter, it seems to me that such a system can work. All measurements except temperature will match.

 

[Fredastaire]

I suspect it's the MAP that's complaining. Because the MAP can't get enough turbo pressure (EGR filter blocked) it fully operates the LP EGR, at which point the butterfly strangles the engine. However, anything you write or anything I write is us playing guesswork.
Back to your other point, I'm wondering if there could be a thick spacer fitted where the elbow pipe (from the cooler exit) bolts to the LP EGR.
This spacer having an inbuilt pipe going upwards to a second air filter.
One of our members previously recorded having taken his temp probe out and that he didn't get further fault codes. Just the airflow through the probe hole avoided strangulation.
Overall we all need to theorise and test theories. Maybe one day we will find a mechanical way to dodge our problem. I don't fanct the software delete because it's not under my control and thus not reversible at home. A DPF delete is a definite no no.
Please keep thinking .....

 

[Piotr129]

Removing DPF is not a good idea but I am still thinking about the concept of #aschoots (disabling LPEGR) because it is a reversible process. (even at home) We want to trick the engine controller, i.e. limit the opening of the valve. The same as disabling.

 

[Hank25]

I suspect it's the MAP that's complaining. Because the MAP can't get enough turbo pressure (EGR filter blocked) it fully operates the LP EGR, at which point the butterfly strangles the engine. However, anything you write or anything I write is us playing guesswork.
Back to your other point, I'm wondering if there could be a thick spacer fitted where the elbow pipe (from the cooler exit) bolts to the LP EGR.
This spacer having an inbuilt pipe going upwards to a second air filter.
One of our members previously recorded having taken his temp probe out and that he didn't get further fault codes. Just the airflow through the probe hole avoided strangulation.
Overall we all need to theorise and test theories. Maybe one day we will find a mechanical way to dodge our problem. I don't fanct the software delete because it's not under my control and thus not reversible at home. A DPF delete is a definite no no.
Please keep thinking .....

The main problem with both these ideas is access.The easiest way to bypass lp egr would be to remove the input end of egr cooler and fit hose to main air filter.This would only work if the lp egr cooler isn’t already blocked.I think fredastaires idea will work providing it doesn’t upset position sensor in egr unit.Or could just remove butterfly flap in unit.

 

[Serrow225]

I suspect it's the MAP that's complaining. Because the MAP can't get enough turbo pressure (EGR filter blocked) it fully operates the LP EGR, at which point the butterfly strangles the engine. However, anything you write or anything I write is us playing guesswork.
Back to your other point, I'm wondering if there could be a thick spacer fitted where the elbow pipe (from the cooler exit) bolts to the LP EGR.
This spacer having an inbuilt pipe going upwards to a second air filter.
One of our members previously recorded having taken his temp probe out and that he didn't get further fault codes. Just the airflow through the probe hole avoided strangulation.
Overall we all need to theorise and test theories. Maybe one day we will find a mechanical way to dodge our problem. I don't fanct the software delete because it's not under my control and thus not reversible at home. A DPF delete is a definite no no.
Please keep thinking .....

Agree with your thoughts on the MAP sensor, as when I changed MAP sensor to correct item from factory fitted incorrect item , suddenly I went from a few EML warnings to limp modes constantly as I'm surmising it was getting a more accurate reading on expected pressure,which was not possible due to blocked cooler ..