Technical Ducato P0401 P0402 P0236 P0238 and limp mode its 2017 Euro 6, EGR changed, What do I check next

[Fredastaire]

@proppb , if you look at the LP EGR operation is it continually fluctuating it's opening measurements between say 2-4 when driving (it's zero with foot off say downhill) or is it either closed/ full open fluctuating?
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I think I'm correct in saying that the EGR systems are designed to input a measure of exhaust in to the induction stream of air such that it lowers the actual combustion top temperature and thus lowers NOX products.
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It's worth visually studying each of the sensors wiring where they pass through harness clips at the top of the engine. I've recently helped another member on here as his wiring had vibrated and chafed through both the outer sleeve tube and individual wire insulations causing intermittent short circuits.

 

[proppb]

@proppb , if you look at the LP EGR operation is it continually fluctuating it's opening measurements between say 2-4 when driving (it's zero with foot off say downhill) or is it either closed/ full open fluctuating?
.
I think I'm correct in saying that the EGR systems are designed to input a measure of exhaust in to the induction stream of air such that it lowers the actual combustion top temperature and thus lowers NOX products.
.
It's worth visually studying each of the sensors wiring where they pass through harness clips at the top of the engine. I've recently helped another member on here as his wiring had vibrated and chafed through both the outer sleeve tube and individual wire insulations causing intermittent short circuits

Thanks for the reply. I am still new to all this but intend to get to grips with it for the long term health of the engine as luckily for us the exhaust wipe is completely clean at the moment and we want to keep it that way.
Can I ask you to be more specific in what you mean when you ask about continually fluctuating and how to test it, can I see it off the data reading from template 4 or is it something we need to watch live while we are driving?

 

[Fredastaire]

@proppb , easy.use the template, scroll down so that the listed EGRs are at the top of the visible page. Go for a drive, say 60mph in a straightish road.
My wife watches typically the LP EGR and calls out the opening mm and temperatures. You should see the LP opening varying between 1 and say 4, it will be constantly varying to blend the induction air. The temperature equally will be fluctuating, ideally floating around 100- 130. When you take foot off going downhill, it will close to zero and temperatures drop well below 100.
If the opening is travelling from zero and going straight to 4.7 ish; the temperature struggling to reach 90 then it indicates the cooler is blocked

 

[CheeseMonster]

After an 80 drive today in our twin EGR MoHo the exhaust which I had cleaned as best I could before starting was as follows.
The Template 4 traces for the journey are attached

 

[proppb]

@proppb , easy.use the template, scroll down so that the listed EGRs are at the top of the visible page. Go for a drive, say 60mph in a straightish road.
My wife watches typically the LP EGR and calls out the opening mm and temperatures. You should see the LP opening varying between 1 and say 4, it will be constantly varying to blend the induction air. The temperature equally will be fluctuating, ideally floating around 100- 130. When you take foot off going downhill, it will close to zero and temperatures drop well below 100.
If the opening is travelling from zero and going straight to 4.7 ish; the temperature struggling to reach 90 then it indicates the cooler is blocked

Thanks for the quick reply, so just to confirm to do your test we start with a warm engine and watch for the LPEGR position varying between 1 and 4 and when we take our foot off the pedal note if the position is fully open or fully closed and the position should drop should be 0 with the foot off the gas and the temperature well below 100

I found out last night that the van has a speed limiter on and so all the test were carried out at sub 65mph.

As I say I am new to this and in order to understand whats going on can I ask the following.
Looking at the data on the template 4 run I did last night the DPF differential it varys between 10 and 70 which I understand is typical of a DPF in good working order.
On the LPEGR the mean LPEGR temperature over 1200 readings was 82.5C and the maximum 110C although visually scanning down the temperature data column rather than looking at the graph shows that the majority of the readings were between 75-90C the lowest being 68C.

If the exhaust pipe wipe is clean and the maximum temp is 110C on the template 4 data run would that indicate that the cooler is not blocked as it does get over 100C?
OR
Does the fact that the mean temperature is lower than 100C and on the data readings indicate a problem and that is why I need to carry out the test you suggest?

As the Council we bought the van off does not provide a service history we are having a major service done by my mechanic including timing belt and water pump, is there any way of physically inspecting if the cooler is blocked while he is doing this?

Also are there any other Items we should change as preventative maintenance while the van is being worked on, I understand from reading the posts on the forum that the NOX sensors (which we have an error for) and turbo boost valve can cause problems, the van is 6 years old with 71K miles?

Sorry for the escalating scope of the query and thanks

Paul

 

[proppb]

Just a quick note @theoneandonly has had a look at the data I provided and I understand that the data shows everything working as it should except for maybe the injectors.
I will use some Archoil AR6400-D MAX Professional Diesel Engine, Turbo, DPF & CAT Cleaner Concentrate
to see if I can improve the injector performance, I used it on my Citroen Car when we had problems and it worked wonders.

I still need to clear the errors and I would still like guidance on if there is any preventative maintenance we can do while we are at the garage if anyone has any tips.

Thanks.
Paul
Archoil

Archoil​

 

[Fredastaire]

@proppb you've already given some good pointers. As your van is ex council it's highly unlikely to have had EGR / DPF deletes or had other mapping done. It's already proven dangerous for 'next owners' who buy a van that's been meddled with, one had to have a new engine ECU at a dealer....plus new DPF and EGR components.....

You've also reported a clean exhaust and V28.
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For the LP EGR check do it with an already warm engine, look for that constantly adjusting its operation.
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Then look as suggested for damaged components wiring / damaged engine harness wiring.
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Back to other works I would change the map sensor, HOWEVER only by fitting a genuine Bosch part, do NOT buy aftermarket.
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Now it's down to comments by theoneandonly

 

[theoneandonly]

Since there has been discussion i will add the 2 graphs.

The mean is taken from sample 300 once engine has warmed up. The valve does open to plus 4 and closes but also controls at interim values. The temperature is mid band others run typicaly at 130 to 150 max and mean of 100.

What happened to old codes did you copy freeze frame and delete them.

 

[proppb]

Since there has been discussion i will add the 2 graphs.
View attachment 447793
The mean is taken from sample 300 once engine has warmed up. The valve does open to plus 4 and closes but also controls at interim values. The temperature is mid band others run typicaly at 130 to 150 max and mean of 100.


View attachment 447791

What happened to old codes did you copy freeze frame and delete them.


View attachment 447792

Yes the deleted codes are attached below.

 

[Fredastaire]

@proppb the other known harness problem is recorded in the vacinity where the harness passes at the bottom of the diesel filter. Some vans are known for the harness to abrade here. You may need to remove the left headlight to gain access, (two screws I think plus detach the plug/ socket).

 

[theoneandonly]

@CheeseMonster your last graphs bellow.
Nothing to see here move on. Seriously, good injectors , slight over boost on turbo, EGRS working ok. Differential sensor in ok region
I think this is an example of a perfectly working engine.

 

[CheeseMonster]

@CheeseMonster your last graphs bellow.
Nothing to see here move on. Seriously, good injectors , slight over boost on turbo, EGRS working ok. Differential sensor in ok region
I think this is an example of a perfectly working engine.

View attachment 447922
View attachment 447923View attachment 447924View attachment 447925View attachment 447927
View attachment 447926View attachment 447929View attachment 447930View attachment 447931View attachment 447933View attachment 447932View attachment 447934View attachment 447935

Thank you, that's very reassuring, i couldn'tse a problem but I'm no expert. I think/hope the black exhaust is possibly just a build up over 20+ thousand miles although a friends exhaust was spotless but our exhausts exit at completely different angles! His is a 150bhp on an Autotrail, ours is a 130bhp Roller Team but both coach built, why the different exhausts???

I keep using the Millers, should we alternate between different products, does Millers do it all?

 

[Serrow225]

Thank you, that's very reassuring, i couldn'tse a problem but I'm no expert. I think/hope the black exhaust is possibly just a build up over 20+ thousand miles although a friends exhaust was spotless but our exhausts exit at completely different angles! His is a 150bhp on an Autotrail, ours is a 130bhp Roller Team but both coach built, why the different exhausts???

I keep using the Millers, should we alternate between different products, does Millers do it all?

Another interesting thought regarding exhaust type , mine has a short system probably designed for chassis cab ,exit below drivers door , I know from my motorbike days exhaust length and bends alter gas flow and back pressure.. maybe it has a effect on deposits!!

 

[theoneandonly]

Thank you, that's very reassuring, i couldn'tse a problem but I'm no expert. I think/hope the black exhaust is possibly just a build up over 20+ thousand miles although a friends exhaust was spotless but our exhausts exit at completely different angles! His is a 150bhp on an Autotrail, ours is a 130bhp Roller Team but both coach built, why the different exhausts???

I keep using the Millers, should we alternate between different products, does Millers do it all?

Just confirm you have never had the DPF or LPegrcooler replaced. If so its just residuals in the exhaust system if not ?
You have always had very good injector results since ive been looking at the results, have they been changed. Again could be residual from a overfuelled engine.
Millers another question. A few years back i seen a very good comparisson paper on additives from a US magazine but dated 2007 not very relevant today need something more recent, from an unbiased source.

 

[CheeseMonster]

Just confirm you have never had the DPF or LPegrcooler replaced. If so its just residuals in the exhaust system if not ?
You have always had very good injector results since ive been looking at the results, have they been changed. Again could be residual from a overfuelled engine.
Millers another question. A few years back i seen a very good comparisson paper on additives from a US magazine but dated 2007 not very relevant today need something more recent, from an unbiased source.

Everything is original, nothing changed other than software to v32.

Just confirm you have never had the DPF or LPegrcooler replaced. If so its just residuals in the exhaust system if not ?
You have always had very good injector results since ive been looking at the results, have they been changed. Again could be residual from a overfuelled engine.
Millers another question. A few years back i seen a very good comparisson paper on additives from a US magazine but dated 2007 not very relevant today need something more recent, from an unbiased source.

The DPF and EGR Cooler are original, never changed.

 

[theoneandonly]

Another interesting thought regarding exhaust type , mine has a short system probably designed for chassis cab ,exit below drivers door , I know from my motorbike days exhaust length and bends alter gas flow and back pressure.. maybe it has a effect on deposits!!

My exhaust exits just behind passenger door traverses width of van. Rapido 2.3 130

 

[deejays]

Thank you, that's very reassuring, i couldn'tse a problem but I'm no expert. I think/hope the black exhaust is possibly just a build up over 20+ thousand miles although a friends exhaust was spotless but our exhausts exit at completely different angles! His is a 150bhp on an Autotrail, ours is a 130bhp Roller Team but both coach built, why the different exhausts???

I keep using the Millers, should we alternate between different products, does Millers do it all?

My understanding is the main difference between a 130HP and 150HP version is the 150 has a VGT turbo (similar to 180) whereas the 130 has a waste gate style of turbo. The other main difference (and this may be vital) is the 130 has a different (smaller?) DPF/CAT canister than the 150. The 180 uses the same DPF/CAT canister as the 150. So, I wonder is this an important factor in this issue with the twin EGR motors? Does anyone (theoneandonly?) have data on relative failure rates/issues between the 130, 150, and 180 variants?

 

[theoneandonly]

My understanding is the main difference between a 130HP and 150HP version is the 150 has a VGT turbo (similar to 180) whereas the 130 has a waste gate style of turbo. The other main difference (and this may be vital) is the 130 has a different (smaller?) DPF/CAT canister than the 150. The 180 uses the same DPF/CAT canister as the 150. So, I wonder is this an important factor in this issue with the twin EGR motors? Does anyone (theoneandonly?) have data on relative failure rates/issues between the 130, 150, and 180 variants?

As i understand it the 150,180 are idendentical apart from ecu mapping. The are a number of 'small" differences 130 to 150, the differences in cats i was unaware of, do you have part numbers? We know the problem affects comfortmatics more than manuals. i will have a rummage through the data but the variant isnt always mentioned

 

[deejays]

As i understand it the 150,180 are idendentical apart from ecu mapping. The are a number of 'small" differences 130 to 150, the differences in cats i was unaware of, do you have part numbers? We know the problem affects comfortmatics more than manuals. i will have a rummage through the data but the variant isnt always mentioned

I am stumped! I normally keep records of data like that. I have just spent the last 30 minutes trying to find where I read that info regarding the difference in the DPF's but I give up - I am at a loss. Sorry about that So maybe, there is no difference - does anyone have, or come across this info in the past? Regarding the issue being more of a problem with the comfortmatics - is it likely this is due to the comfortmatic logic keeping the rpm's lower than a "normal" person would driving a manual?

 

[deejays]

@deejays thanks for the update. Glad to hear you have a clean ehaust, you are right about the importance of a software updates. From a personal point of view when you have MES there is some info id like you to collect. Do you have a cof c and know when it left the factory or when registered.

I now have the interface and a paid version of MES. What info would you like me to collect? Template 4? With regard to CSV files, I note that the default in MES is tab separation, rather than comma separation. Which do you prefer - or does that not matter?