Technical Ducato P0401 P0402 P0236 P0238 and limp mode its 2017 Euro 6, EGR changed, What do I check next

[MSjoberg]

@theoneandonly @Fredastaire and any others with MES experience: With regard to using MES with the Ducato is it normal that when scanning/connecting to the ABS module that it triggers the vehicle to generate an ABS alarm - including yellow lights and audible beep alarm on the dash of the vehicle? The first time it happened gave me the shivers! This is a repeatable issue and occurs with either of the two interfaces I have - OBDLINK SX, and Vgate vLinker FS USB on Win 11. It doesn't generate a fault, but it certainly gave the operator a jolt! I know this is not specifically on topic here, but I reckon it is probably the best place to ask, considering the wealth of experience present. Apart from that one issue, my experience of MES has been flawless.

When I execute the scan function (F11) on my 2018 X290 something similar (or perhaps identical) happens. I noticed it some years ago and it is repeatable. I don't consider it to be a fault, have somewhere read a description why it happens. I'm also using a proper adapter and cables, from a German equivalent to Gendan.

(Sorry for adding to this off-topic discussion, but I thought it better to try to reassure deejays than not trying. Maybe Admin can move these entries to a new thread?)

 

[deejays]

@Fredastaire @theoneandonly
I own a 2018 150HP 2.3JTD Euro6B Ducato 290 with MTA. I have owned it since new.

I am the only driver and have maintained it myself. It has never once suffered any relevant issue or had any fault codes referred to in FCA Service News Bulletin 10.023.19. Recently (5 days ago) I had the ECM software updated from version 0024 to version 0032 and the TCM updated from version FEA09DAT to FEA10DAU as per that Bulletin. The vehicle has travelled around 32,000 km.

I have captured some data before and after the update. Of significance, I have captured the last DPF Regen under V0024 and the first DPF Regen under V0032. As can be seen, the profiles are so close they could be termed identical. The updated software does not appear to change the DPF Regen algorithm. I captured the V0024 regen using an Autel DS808, and the V0032 regen using MES. It would have been nice to have captured both with MES, but at the time I did not have MES up and running. At least the data can be confirmed in MES by the historical data supporting the live scan data.

Below are three snapshots of the V0024 regen:

Below is the capture of the V0032 regen:

Below is the historical data of V0024:

Below is the historical data of V0032:

To distil the above data as V0024/V0032:

Average distance between last regenerations: 675/635 km

Average temperature of last regenerations: 625/624.5 C

Maximum temperature of last regenerations: 658/653 C

Average duration of last regenerations: 398/403.4 S



So, what does V0032 address then if not the DPF regeneration profile?

It would appear obvious that the health of the injectors is absolutely critical, not just from the information in the Service bulletin, but specially from what has been exposed and recorded in this forum. I am beginning to suspect that the main difference could well be in the main injection period which MES has no access to, only the Total Fuel Quantity (which the main injection period is the bulk of anyway). But it does not show the duration or injection variation during the period. The only way to see that would be by analysing the injector waveform with a scope, and it would need to be done on a chassis dyno for accuracy. MES shows five injections periods, but only three are available – Pre, Pilot, and Post (same goes for FIAT’s own Wi-Tech). MAIN and After injection periods are not recorded. It would seem that MES has these original 5 injection periods which may have been relevant to the original version of Multijets, but not for the later versions of Multijet ii onwards.

Have I noticed any difference? Well, it could be the placebo effect, but the vehicle just seems to run more smoothly and quitely – it seems less fussed – if that makes any sense.

One large noticeable difference is the update to the MTA gearbox software. The gear change is very much improved both in upshift and downshift. It now holds gears longer and the change is also noticeably smoother. So there has been very favourable changes to the gear change point mapping and also the clutch mapping and perhaps throttle control on the change point.

 

[Fredastaire]

I shall look with interest to hear @theoneandonly comments, he's the techy guy, I'm the practical one with a victim van.
.
I'm currently working with him on latest results from my van. Its two years back that I had my cooler changed; I'm now seeing high measurements on the LP EGR plus the turbo is lagging a little. I'm suspicious that I'm seeing a 'blocking up' tea strainer in the cooler. @theoneandonly has new csv files to investigate
.
I wonder if at software 24; if this was already a safer bet for DPF damages? Might be why you can't spot a Regen difference to compare.

 

[theoneandonly]

Thanks for your data. Have you got any csv files pm if wanted.
Anumber of comments in no particular order.
The average dpf readings are for typicaly 5 readings (could be less, ) thus the v32 an v24 could include 3 or 4 identical readings so may be reason for closeness.
V24, 625c 398s
V32, 625C 403s
Values extracted from graph
V24, 633C 360s
V32, 653C 440s
The higher temp regen is contrary to the thought that high temp regen caused cracking of dpf. @Fredastaire may be correct in that v24 is an overcompensation for fiats first rectification version.
You wont be the first to have noticed a difference, ive no doubt it runs better. The gearbox improvements probably the most significant.

Puting a scope on the injectors :a good idea
Heres what i did earlyier,
Ps dont think i know what i'm doing its v28 manual
I found no examples on the net for this model. I would like to have the ecu connections to acess the crank sensor at same time (my sensor is inaccessable due to ac pump).
I have an example from the pico library at home, will post eventualy

Injector Waveform Picoscope | FIAT Ducato

On a previous thread someone mentioned the use of an occiloscope in Auto diagnostics. Well i have a ducato and MES tells me the injector variances are greater than the FIAT spec of +-2 but under what conditions. So Ive watched a lot of you tube and bought a scope and an amp clamp probe. The...

www.fiatforum.com

This is probbly enough ramblings for now.

 

[theoneandonly]

@Fredastaire @theoneandonly
I own a 2018 150HP 2.3JTD Euro6B Ducato 290 with MTA. I have owned it since new.

I am the only driver and have maintained it myself. It has never once suffered any relevant issue or had any fault codes referred to in FCA Service News Bulletin 10.023.19. Recently (5 days ago) I had the ECM software updated from version 0024 to version 0032 and the TCM updated from version FEA09DAT to FEA10DAU as per that Bulletin. The vehicle has travelled around 32,000 km.

I have captured some data before and after the update. Of significance, I have captured the last DPF Regen under V0024 and the first DPF Regen under V0032. As can be seen, the profiles are so close they could be termed identical. The updated software does not appear to change the DPF Regen algorithm. I captured the V0024 regen using an Autel DS808, and the V0032 regen using MES. It would have been nice to have captured both with MES, but at the time I did not have MES up and running. At least the data can be confirmed in MES by the historical data supporting the live scan data.

Below are three snapshots of the V0024 regen:
View attachment 448858
View attachment 448859
View attachment 448860


Below is the capture of the V0032 regen:
View attachment 448861

Below is the historical data of V0024:
View attachment 448862


Below is the historical data of V0032:
View attachment 448863

To distil



So, what does V0032 address then if not the DPF regeneration profile?

It would appear obvious that the health of the injectors is absolutely critical, not just from the information in the Service bulletin, but specially from what has been exposed and recorded in this forum. I am beginning to suspect that the main difference could well be in the main injection period which MES has no access to, only the Total Fuel Quantity (which the main injection period is the bulk of anyway). But it does not show the duration or injection variation during the period. The only way to see that would be by analysing the injector waveform with a scope, and it would need to be done on a chassis dyno for accuracy. MES shows five injections periods, but only three are available – Pre, Pilot, and Post (same goes for FIAT’s own Wi-Tech). MAIN and After injection periods are not recorded. It would seem that MES has these original 5 injection periods which may have been relevant to the original version of Multijets, but not for the later versions of Multijet ii

I think v32 does address regen issues but could be because they dialled the knob back too much. I / we need more data. I think V25 was a comformatic version.

The pico traces i gave show one injector that is out of spec but is sharing the grief. (from an expert, he wants the test with crankshaft sensor) and i did a leak off test with one being bad.
If you could repeat this with v32, i would love to inspect the traces.

 

[Serrow225]

@Fredastaire you say you think you maybe starting to show signs of LP cooler blocking up again on MES .
Could I ask do you know how many miles you done after it was changed, just be interesting to know potentially how long I might have before same issues after mine was changed.
Thanks

 

[Fredastaire]

@Serrow225 I'm guessing 12,000 miles, I've noticed high opening readings on the LP EGR yet the temperature is still good, @theoneandonly has csv files from me to interpret.
.
I've another brand new cooler in stock plus my old one caustic cleaned..
.
@deejays have you in past times done the clutch calibration with MES? With your dealer having just replaced the comfortmatic software it's almost certain he would have had to calibrate the clutch. I've just done the MES routine for the first time on mine, Im surprised by the smoothness it's given me.

 

[CheeseMonster]

I've just done the MES routine for the first time on mine, Im surprised by the smoothness it's given me.

I've not been brave enough, perhaps you do a tutorial?

 

[Serrow225]

@Serrow225 I'm guessing 12,000 miles, I've noticed high opening readings on the LP EGR yet the temperature is still good, @theoneandonly has csv files from me to interpret.
.
I've another brand new cooler in stock plus my old one caustic cleaned..
.
@deejays have you in past times done the clutch calibration with MES? With your dealer having just replaced the comfortmatic software it's almost certain he would have had to calibrate the clutch. I've just done the MES routine for the first time on mine, Im surprised by the smoothness it's given me.

Thanks , that sort of confirms my vans trend as well , I bought it with 14000 miles ,and by 17000 I had first EML , I monitored it thinking it was just a duff sensor , but by 21000 I was getting EML every 1000 miles then down to maximum 200miles .. at least I know roughly when to break open the piggy bank again.
Thanks for info

 

[theoneandonly]

@Fredastaire you say you think you maybe starting to show signs of LP cooler blocking up again on MES .
Could I ask do you know how many miles you done after it was changed, just be interesting to know potentially how long I might have before same issues after mine was changed.
Thanks

Did you just have the cooler changed? How about injectors and dpf?

 

[Serrow225]

Did you just have the cooler changed? How about injectors and dpf?

Just cooler , you checked my MES data for me and injectors are good ( original), but as I still have soot in system so my DPF is cracked...

 

[Fredastaire]

Not sure which of us the question is aimed at.
To bring things up to date.......
I'm the only owner of my van, I've serviced it from new. It's still on the original injectors and DPF. The cooler changed because it was blocked, early days I changed the turbo solenoid and MAP before we understood what's going on. It's now a known fact that the factory fitted wrong part number MAP sensors to engines around 2017 period.

 

[Serrow225]

Not sure which of us the question is aimed at.
To bring things up to date.......
I'm the only owner of my van, I've serviced it from new. It's still on the original injectors and DPF. The cooler changed because it was blocked, early days I changed the turbo solenoid and MAP before we understood what's going on. It's now a known fact that the factory fitted wrong part number MAP sensors to engines around 2017 period.

Yep sorry if it wasn't for me , but same route, HP EGR , map sensor ,mass air flow meter , OME air filter ( tech said my one was aftermarket and advised to change as well ) .. then LP cooler..

 

[deejays]

@Serrow225 I'm guessing 12,000 miles, I've noticed high opening readings on the LP EGR yet the temperature is still good, @theoneandonly has csv files from me to interpret.
.
I've another brand new cooler in stock plus my old one caustic cleaned..
.
@deejays have you in past times done the clutch calibration with MES? With your dealer having just replaced the comfortmatic software it's almost certain he would have had to calibrate the clutch. I've just done the MES routine for the first time on mine, Im surprised by the smoothness it's given me.

@Fredastaire An excellent question. The clutch has never been recalibrated. I asked them to check the clutch calibration after doing the SW update and they reported the clutch calibration was within tolerance and did not need any adjustment/recalibration. I would also ask if you could post a "how to" on your experience doing this - it would be most appreciated.

 

[deejays]

Thanks for your data. Have you got any csv files pm if wanted.
Anumber of comments in no particular order.
The average dpf readings are for typicaly 5 readings (could be less, ) thus the v32 an v24 could include 3 or 4 identical readings so may be reason for closeness.
V24, 625c 398s
V32, 625C 403s
Values extracted from graph
V24, 633C 360s
V32, 653C 440s
The higher temp regen is contrary to the thought that high temp regen caused cracking of dpf. @Fredastaire may be correct in that v24 is an overcompensation for fiats first rectification version.
You wont be the first to have noticed a difference, ive no doubt it runs better. The gearbox improvements probably the most significant.

Hi @theoneandonly , the average DPF temperatures I obtain direct from the graphs do not agree with the figures you have shown. I have double checked to ensure accuracy. Could you please re-check? I agree with you that the reported averages shown in MES are likely a fusion of both versions regarding the V32 data, which is why I also originally included the absolute maximum temperatures as shown in the graphs.

From the graphs, the following temperatures and times can be obtained:

V24: 616C Av temp, 658C Max temp, 380S duration

V32: 625C Av temp, 653C Max temp, 440S duration

The duration time and maximum temperatures are quite accurate and absolute.

The Average temperature is by best approximation and may have an accuracy of +/-5C.

I do not believe there is much difference between V24 and V32 regarding duration, max and average temperature of the DPF Regen. It is interesting to note however that V32 does not appear to be as tightly regulated as V24 and maybe this gives the injectors an easier time during the process – although I would think compared to the main injection cycle, the DPF Regen cycle would be the least arduous process the injectors would have to deal with.

One other thing to consider is that the two regens were not carried out in identical situations – that can only be done on a chassis dyno. The V24 regen was (unfortunately) carried out on a very short section of open highway (100kph) and included four U-turns where the vehicle was stationary waiting for clear traffic conditions. So, that would likely produce a lower DPF temperature. The V32 regen began on the entry to a freeway and the entire regen was carried out at 100kph without any interruptions.

I will post the file in another post, but it is not as per your Template 4. I also have files for the pre and post SW update, which may be of interest. I have spent way too much time trying to find an identical section in both files to compare and try and spot any significant repeatable differences. I will gladly upload them for your own enjoyment and punishment!

As to obtaining injection waveforms, I don’t think there is much to be gained by observation at idle. I suspect the difference between V24 and V32 will be in the main injection waveform under various load conditions through the entire rev range – dyno required.

The simple test for injector health is by observing the actual individual injector correction fuel amounts (not waveform) as per FIAT Service News 10.023.19. Understanding that these are obtained in the workshop connected to the FIAT analyser (Wi-tech) it is assumed that the quoted figures are obtained at idle – interesting to note that this is not specified in that document.

 

[MSjoberg]

The simple test for injector health is by observing the actual individual injector correction fuel amounts (not waveform) as per FIAT Service News 10.023.19. Understanding that these are obtained in the workshop connected to the FIAT analyser (Wi-tech) it is assumed that the quoted figures are obtained at idle – interesting to note that this is not specified in that document.

Agree! The evaluation criteria stated in that document is not so useful if the test procedure isn’t known in more detail (engine temp, load, rpm; static or dynamic; etc.). Or perhaps it is obvious to the professionals?

 

[MSjoberg]

I've not been brave enough, perhaps you do a tutorial?

Running MES in simulation mode and reading the help texts provides some info, e.g.:

 

[Fredastaire]

@deejays the info given above is all that I followed. When using the Ducato is necessary to understand that the clutch is a normal part of the 150/ 180 Ducato, just operated by the robot. Thus you must drive as if it were a manual, whenever you have to pause / stop always select neutral with handbrake on. I suspect many drive it like a standard auto and expect to hill hold using the throttle. You would never hill hold in a manual using the clutch for fear of burning it out. With comfortmatic we are also told to change the clutch oil every two years, I guess it gets degraded with the excess heat on hill holding.
I wasn't aware of these points for a couple of years so I hope it lasts a while longer.

 

[MSjoberg]

Agree, you should not use the accelerator pedal to simulate a hill holding function. The Ducatos that have a hill holder function uses the brakes (ABS system).

Surprisingly, Comfortmatic keeps the clutch pressed also in Neutral if the motor is running, so shifting to N at short standstills does not, as one would expect, reduce the wear on the slave cylinder bearing and seals. Unfortunately.

 

[theoneandonly]

@deejays i wish i knew the real info behind the injector correction test. If its at idle ive not seen a single engine that would fail. Pherhaps we need to come up with a standard test and get a number here to cooperate. Its simular to the leak off test in that ive seen a number of different options, what are sensible numbers? There is quite a variation in data we see due to a number of variables from well you allready know what they are we need to minimize them and get statisticaly viable data. I try a monthly run using same route a12mile 60mph blast up m1 and return. Not a dyno but best ive got. Yes im a masochist i love playing with numbers. Will lookat graphs again but will be tommorrow.