Technical Ducato P0401 P0402 P0236 P0238 and limp mode its 2017 Euro 6, EGR changed, What do I check next

[theoneandonly]

@jansla thanks for the extra details on the MAP sensors. No you are not the only one who had the wrong sensor fitted in the factory, @Fredastaire reported this many moons ago. I think incorrect/ different differential DPF sensors were also fitted for a while as an alternative due to correct specified being unavailable (cynics might suggest a cost saving exercise).
Checking the MAP sensor has been @Fredastaire reccommendation early on in this thread and the reason why i checked mine and got a spare.

MAP sensor Location and Multiecuscan data 2017 Twin EGR 2.3

This information was taken from a working 2017 Ducato. Parts of it maybe applicable to other models and general MAP sensors. Location. It is at front of engine on the inlet manifold Map sensor Multiecuscan Data This Gives sufficient info to...

www.fiatforum.com

 

[jansla]

@theoneandonly you are right, now when you wrote this I remember that it was mentioned (not directly as this is a very long thread now), my apologies to you and @Fredastaire not remembering this

Do you think that all that soot I could see in may exhaust pipe and possible had worsen engine performance and cause to the fault codes and limp modes could depend on the wrong sensor and its malfunction resulting in poor combustion = more sooty exhaust?
You were so kind and analysed my MES data previously and your assessment was that it was not too bad, and LP-EGR was still working quite good. Is it possible that MAP sensor was sending data not that much out of range that engine could manage until it got far too much sooty deposits with time so recently started throwing codes? Is this the right way to think about it?

 

[theoneandonly]

@theoneandonly you are right, now when you wrote this I remember that it was mentioned (not directly as this is a very long thread now), my apologies to you and @Fredastaire not remembering this

Do you think that all that soot I could see in may exhaust pipe and possible had worsen engine performance and cause to the fault codes and limp modes could depend on the wrong sensor and its malfunction resulting in poor combustion = more sooty exhaust?
You were so kind and analysed my MES data previously and your assessment was that it was not too bad, and LP-EGR was still working quite good. Is it possible that MAP sensor was sending data not that much out of range that engine could manage until it got far too much sooty deposits with time so recently started throwing codes? Is this the right way to think about it?

I was just trying to reinforce the fact that fiat have used incorrect sensors i dont think @Fredastaire is precious about being first. yes it is a long thread. We have all learned on the way. i Have have looked at data from a few engines now and eventualy thought along with good engine data i knew what was going on. There have been a couple of engines like yours recently that I didnt really know what was happening that didn't totaly fit the previous data eg one that had all symtoms of a 401 without actualy throwing a 401. Yours also has different symtoms I know i dont know everything and your assessment is reasonable. How are your injectors. The MAP can easily be the catalyst for your problems. Cant remember how long you had been running on an old version of the software or when you got V32

 

[jansla]

I was on v028 all 5 years and update to v032 was made in the middle of September. As for injectors - so not much variation in their inj. correction - I think. Made some recordings today, driving and in idle

 

[Fredastaire]

@jansla in changing the MAP youve actually changed two things, one is the part number, the second is that you have removed a dirty carboned component. So which has caused the improvement - fact is we dont know.
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I made a mistake in changing two components at the same time so I could never be sure which made my improvement. after changing both the MAP and the turbo solenoid my fault codes and limp disappeared for a good while before re-appearing, then I had my garage change the LP EGR cooler, that now is over a year back and no fault codes, HOWEVER, ive no idea if the cooler is going to slowly re-block with soot so I dont know if I am clear from trouble. I keep regular MES checks and email results to @theoneandonly . I am aware of light soot in the silencer tailpipe which surely defines I have a cracked DPF.
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Together we have a problem which is as yet undefined as to origin, my thoughts are that there are a number of possible root causes, software is one, maybe suspect injectors, maybe questionable batch quality on the DPF manufacture, not forgetting the MAP incorrect part and that others tell us that the turbo solenoid life is likely 24,000 miles (ish). The finality of all is that the cooler gets carbon blocked, the LP EGR opens to 4.7 and cuts off any air supply from the air filter - engine strangled = limp mode.
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Could I emphasise again that every tank fill up is with high quality 'ultra diesel' PLUS I always add a dose of Millers Diesel Max HOWEVER, can I prove It works / benefits? Absolute not; Im just scared of an early return to faut codes and limp mode.

 

[Poachersmoon]

@Fredastaire - so far done about 500 ish KM trip with no issues (including some steep up and down hills) urban and highway mixed.
Will attempt to log this weekend but it's just a little tricky.

My motorhome with the 130HP (2018) chipped / remapped to 160HP approx and EGR delete - sitting at 3.5 Tonne (3500KG)
Fuel consumption (with my heavy foot) was sitting around 12L/100KM (Is that about 19 MPG?) - to me it seems reasonable with my heavy foot driving and EGR deleted / off.

 

[theoneandonly]

@Fredastaire - so far done about 500 ish KM trip with no issues (including some steep up and down hills) urban and highway mixed.
Will attempt to log this weekend but it's just a little tricky.

My motorhome with the 130HP (2018) chipped / remapped to 160HP approx and EGR delete - sitting at 3.5 Tonne (3500KG)
Fuel consumption (with my heavy foot) was sitting around 12L/100KM (Is that about 19 MPG?) - to me it seems reasonable with my heavy foot driving and EGR deleted / off.

My standard 130 gets 22mpg towing a 1tonne car, or 25 mpg max solo. Plated at 3850 normaly sat at 3500

 

[aschoots]

@Fredastaire - so far done about 500 ish KM trip with no issues (including some steep up and down hills) urban and highway mixed.
Will attempt to log this weekend but it's just a little tricky.

Why is logging tricky?
It should be pretty straightforward with MES.

 

[Poachersmoon]

My standard 130 gets 22mpg towing a 1tonne car, or 25 mpg max solo. Plated at 3850 normaly sat at 3500

Like i said i have a heavy foot haha. And nz iamt very flat we have quite allot of hilly roads. This weekend might be better. When i was on the straights for some time it averaged down to 10L/100km (23.5 mpg) doing 110km hr (68 m ph).

It has a nice bit more of tourque for the hills it can grunt up 100km hr up relative steep highway no trouble.

My laptop has been playing up and logging whej i sont want to stop for a few hours means my laptop will probably run out of battery as well. But will give it a go

 

[Fredastaire]

Our camper is a 130 comfortmatic L2H2 fully kitted out and from memory running circa 3200kg all up. In distance runs it can average 32mpg, local Derbyshire days out with lots of uphill downhill it will do 29mpg.

 

[Hank25]

Like i said i have a heavy foot haha. And nz iamt very flat we have quite allot of hilly roads. This weekend might be better. When i was on the straights for some time it averaged down to 10L/100km (23.5 mpg) doing 110km hr (68 m ph).

It has a nice bit more of tourque for the hills it can grunt up 100km hr up relative steep highway no trouble.

My laptop has been playing up and logging whej i sont want to stop for a few hours means my laptop will probably run out of battery as well. But will give it a go

So I have been following this thread with interest.Some points/questions :I see poacherman has lp egr deleted,would this create engine over run on turn off as the fresh air butterfly would not be now turned shut on engine turn off?Also after this very long thread the start of most of troubles is the dpf gets cracked,but what causes it to crack?Is it overfuelling ?Is it poor dpf design ? Or is it poor quality dpf inner filter component ?What does the v32 update address?Overfuelling and possibly allowing engine to rev higher between gearshifts ?Still many unanswered questions ! My vehicle has sooty exhaust pipe but no other symptoms.So most likely cracked dpf,but am reluctant to change it without knowing what is causing it to crack in the first place.

 

[Fredastaire]

Easy answer is that there is the standard butterfly at the front of the engine, this remains functioning. To clarify then these engines have two butterfly throttles.
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With regards to your other queries, we all wish we knew the answers to your questions, only Fiat Italy would be able to reply. Having discussed with two Fiat dealer technicians in Europe, they suggest that Fiat Italy keeps mum and won't give anything away.
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If you are planning on a new DPF you first need multiecuscan and do many live data runs to know which software version. You have and to know the running state of your injectors and cooler..
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Good luck and please keep us informed.

 

[theoneandonly]

Ducato twin EGR Engine with P0401 Code (2016 to 2019)

This does not refer to earlier single EGR systems or to later AdBlu SCR engines. Note this is a guide and not definative. It is up to you to make decissions. It is the result of my investigations of data from many contributors and discussion with...

www.fiatforum.com

So I have been following this thread with interest.Some points/questions :I see poacherman has lp egr deleted,would this create engine over run on turn off as the fresh air butterfly would not be now turned shut on engine turn off?Also after this very long thread the start of most of troubles is the dpf gets cracked,but what causes it to crack?Is it overfuelling ?Is it poor dpf design ? Or is it poor quality dpf inner filter component ?What does the v32 update address?Overfuelling and possibly allowing engine to rev higher between gearshifts ?Still many unanswered questions ! My vehicle has sooty exhaust pipe but no other symptoms.So most likely cracked dpf,but am reluctant to change it without knowing what is causing it to crack in the first place.

The ecu software version started at 13 but by 2018 was at least 24 my van was updated to 28 in March 2019.
Most with blocked cracked DPF/ LPEGR cooler have comformatic gearboxes and had gbox ecu updated as well as engine ecu. 32 was available in Nov 2019. 32 is mostly fitted to Autos not manuals apart from owners have hastled for it.

the dpf gets cracked,but what causes it to crack?Is it overfuelling ?

The function of the regeneration process is to increase the temperature above normal to facilitate the burning/conversion of soot to ash. If overfuelled we could have much higher temperature leading to cracking or melting

Is it poor dpf design ? Or is it poor quality dpf inner filter component ?

poor Design an interesting question, Has the part number changed since 2016 no, so design probably deemed ok, however the dpf fitted to the twin egr model was of a new concept. These engines were the first to use production variant of what is now standard manufacturing technique. Now Because of my work in materials and process development I am well aware that problems can occur in early production phases of complex ceramic processess. So were early DPFs dodgy? or more suseptible to poor temperature control?

What does the v32 update address?

Poor regen algorithm, other overfuelling issues, better callibration data with experiance of engine hours running .
All mostly guesswork of course (or analysis of data). I have no connection to Fiat or have had discussion with Fiat employees.

possibly allowing engine to rev higher between gearshifts

The comformatic ecu was also modified, but i believe the box was changing too early rather than over revving.

 

[theoneandonly]

My vehicle has sooty exhaust pipe but no other symptoms.So most likely cracked dpf,but am reluctant to change it without knowing what is causing it to crack in the first place.

First things first welcome to the forum. Now before drastic action like spending money or time on what guesses you have you need to spend time and money on proper diagnosis. in this case get a copy of multiecuscan (multiecuscan.net) a windows laptop and an appropriate obd adaptor. an OBDlink adaptor direct from States may be your best bet given your location. Then its down to taking a run with some templates (5 ) mentioned here

Multiecuscan and Alfaobd Pids for X290 Ducato

Here is a list of the PIDs available for the Dual EGR non adblue Euro 6 X290. ECU Marrelli 9DF CF6/EOBD The templates I use for Multiecuscan are given on subsequent pages MES Pids 1 AC compressor relay...

www.fiatforum.com

Then if you post your results here (or via PM) I will analize the data and i will be able to advise or prevaricate.

 

[Fredastaire]

@Tomm53 as you have the usual problems, please have a read up on this long running post and use the reply section below then we can all read and pick up your details and questions.
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@theoneandonly will shortly be adding my latest graphs he's made of Multiecuscan data runs on my engine showing how my cooler is performing one year on from changing it, plus other members good and bad results.
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I rather think you will have a blocked cooler and not EGR problems, it's just how misleading fault codes can be to lead you in changing wrong components.
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We look forward to you joining us

 

[aschoots]

My twin-EGR is at the Fiat garage for MOT testing and replacing the LP-EGR cooler (I have a spare one that I cleaned). The 401/238 errors were starting to occur, and MES data showed the "usual" trends indicating a blocked LP-EGR system.
As I have had the DPF changed out the last time (some 1.7years / 40.000km ago), and it was supplied with 2 years warranty, I'd indicated that the DPF failure might very well be a guarantee job. I'd assumed the LP-EGR would only get blocked if the DPF had a crack (again).

The dealer informed me today they suspect / identified the LP-EGR is leaking from cooling water to exhaust gas side, and they consider this as the cause for failure of the DPF - hence to guarantee job, "please pay 3800 euro for a new DPF".

I'm going along with that immediately. The reasoning does not feel correct. The leak in the LP-EGR must be small - we would have had a low cooling system level alarm otherwise. Never had to top-up in 40.000km.

A (small) leak in de LP-EGR cooler can move two ways;
- Flowing with the (on/off) exhaust gas via the turbo (not failed / so no large amount of water), into the inletmanifold, through the engine, and as water vapour via the turbo out to the DPF. It does not seem realistic to assume this causes a failure of the DPF.
- Flowing -following gravity- against the (on/off) exhaust gas to the outlet side of the DPF, and then out of the exhaust. This route the cooling water does not even 'see' the DPF. Also not realistic to assume this causes failure of the DPF.

Anybody here that has had a LP-EGR cooler leaking?
And if so, did that cause other failures / symptoms?

If I cannot get them to accept a guarantee claim, I might opt for an aftermarket DPF.
Found two sources for -by the looks of it- the same manufacturer:

KF-9331 Diesel Particulate Filter DPF with catalytic converter FIAT - Krosfou

Order your KF-9331 Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF) with catalytic converter (auto catalyst) FIAT Direct-Factory ! Fast shipping, FREE return and 3 years Warranty

www.krosfou.co.uk

Fiat Ducato III (2006 - ) PAM1339DPF - Exhaustdirect24

exhaustdirect24.co.uk

Has anyone here tried this aftermarket DPF?
Cost is less than half of original - including cost for installing.

 

[Fredastaire]

The only comment I have comes from Fiat dealership technician (who did converse with me then has gone silent) , he said that Fiat now offers service exchange DPF units however there are two different parts numbers and you have to be sure and buy the correct one.
Alas as he has gone silent I regretfully have no other information.........
Might be worth checking out?

 

[aschoots]

The only comment I have comes from Fiat dealership technician (who did converse with me then has gone silent) , he said that Fiat now offers service exchange DPF units however there are two different parts numbers and you have to be sure and buy the correct one.
Alas as he has gone silent I regretfully have no other information.........
Might be worth checking out?

For my 177hp the new DPF partno is 1398668080, found a supplier that gave me a price for a refurbished / trade-in item.
Both supplied through FCA, with 2 year warranty (which is worth zilch as they will always find a reason to say the DPF failed of).
Price for the new one is 3200 euro, the refurbished / trade-in one is 1700 euro (both ex VAT).
Also there are some low-mileage parts around from scrap-yards, don't know if those are to be trusted.
Choices, choices...

 

[aschoots]

Like i said i have a heavy foot haha. And nz iamt very flat we have quite allot of hilly roads. This weekend might be better. When i was on the straights for some time it averaged down to 10L/100km (23.5 mpg) doing 110km hr (68 m ph).

It has a nice bit more of tourque for the hills it can grunt up 100km hr up relative steep highway no trouble.

My laptop has been playing up and logging whej i sont want to stop for a few hours means my laptop will probably run out of battery as well. But will give it a go

@Poachersmoon Have you done any more (longer) trips?
Probably more of us here are (very) curious to the prolonged experience of running the mod with both EGR's switched off.

 

[Poachersmoon]

Yes habe done nearly 1000km total been. Long trips. Unfortunately my laptop keeps playing up and we ate usually in a hurray to get to the places we are going. No chance to log yet but i think i have sorted out the laptop so my next free weekend ill do a quick local drive and post up.