Technical Ducato P0401 P0402 P0236 P0238 and limp mode its 2017 Euro 6, EGR changed, What do I check next

[Fredastaire]

Reference the LP EGR. Has anybody got at this in order to remove it for replacement? It's well hidden from view, I wonder if first I have to remove the cabin heater bulkhead inlet duct / scoop?
I have an idea brewing.......

 

[jansla]

isn't accessible from under the car, after removal of sub-frame and then dpf? I haven't tried myself but that's what says elsewhere...

 

[theoneandonly]

There is no info on the diffential dpf pressure sensor to look at dpf clogging.
the injector variances haven't significantly improved.
the p0328
Fiat 2 P0238 turbo pressure - low pressure,
Generic P0238 Turbocharger Boost Sensor A Circuit High
look at graph there is conciderable difference between desired and actual. check the pipework to the turbo solenoid.

Turbo solenoid test

This discusses the option to test the (turbo solenoid)boost valve in MultiEcuScan.

www.fiatforum.com

 

[theGman]

I've seen mentioned in a few posts eLearn, how do I obtain this? Thanks.

 

[theoneandonly]

Not used it myself . Supposed to be easier than elearn

 

[Fredastaire]

P0401 - I have a bright idea but dont know how to execute it.
.
Ive had a LP EGR in my hands and studied it. its much like a house drain pipe 't joint.'; it has three holes. 1/. in from the air cleaner 2/. in from the exhaust silencer 3/. out to the turbo inlet.
No 2 has a n EGR flap valve operated by an electric motor, this flap pivot rod has a disc cam
No 1 has a butterfly disc to work as a throttle, it takes its positional drive by a roller follower from No 2 disc cam
The disc cam does nothing for (say) half the EGR opening and then it rapidly operates the No 1 butterfly to close off the clean air from the air filter.
the system is designed to allow entry of the dirty exhaust and by reducing the clean air it can provide a blended air to the turbo.
.
When the LP EGR Cooler becomes soot clogged the engine ECU calls for a bigger opening of No2 EGR Flap which in turn closes off the butterfly disc.
The engine is now throttled and cannot breath any air, the ECU gives a daft demand for the HP EGR to compensate and open wider than its design, parameter thus we get fault codes and limp mode.
.
So my proposal is to remove the original LP throttle disc cam and replace it with one of a new design which performs no closing of the No 2 butterfly. (the Butterfly thus redundant).
.
With the LP EGR in your hands its a quick cover off, undo three screws and remove the cam for exchange for the new design replacement.
.
The mega problem is that its difficult to even see the LP EGR never mind undo anything.
.
Im wondering if its possible to remove the silencer and the engine stabiliser bar under the engine to allow you to tilt the engine forwards. if one could do this there are only abut 6-8 screws to enable removing the plastic cover and reach the disc cam. (it still wouldnt be easy, access very tight).
.
The result would be no throttling and air starvation as the cooler blocks, no software changes. It wouldnt need the LP EGR removal.
.
So.......ideas anybody?
.
(ive a pencil sketch of the replacement disc cam.

 

[theoneandonly]

I see this as a problem in two parts
one :how to get at the LPEGR Valve. I havent got a clue. This is probably Freds greatest problem
two :replacement or modified camplate
if a second plate can be aquired (a complete valve, not cheap or readily available) then as its made of hardened Mild Steel i think a drop of weld and grinding will do the job. (i dont know if theres room to just add a plate (screw or weld) to restrict the movement)
alternatively manufacture a new plate to the modified design. Where to get it made?
Any suggestions 1 or 2. Or any other comments

 

[Hank25]

I see this as a problem in two parts
one :how to get at the LPEGR Valve. I havent got a clue. This is probably Freds greatest problem
two :replacement or modified camplate
if a second plate can be aquired (a complete valve, not cheap or readily available) then as its made of hardened Mild Steel i think a drop of weld and grinding will do the job. (i dont know if theres room to just add a plate (screw or weld) to restrict the movement)
alternatively manufacture a new plate to the modified design. Where to get it made?
Any suggestions 1 or 2. Or any other comments

Hi,I have been following this thread with interest as I have one of these twin egr engines in my Benivan.It has got some soot on exhaust pipe but as of yet no fault codes and still runs well.I suspect the Dpf has a minor crack in it.Be good to disable the low pass egr to stop any future problems,so see what develops as a solution.

 

[Fredastaire]

@Hank25 I strongly recommend you buy Multiecuscan and interrogate the LP EGR opening values and temperature, do a recording test run and send the results to @theoneandonly , he will spot if the cooler mesh is beginning to block.
Second I might suggest you change to buying an 'ultra' type expensive diesel AND dose with Millers Ecoboost additive. I'm now over a year now having installed a new cooler and even though I know the DPF is cracked I've the best injectors reading that @theoneandonly sees, maybe I've better combustion. Problem is we don't actually know....

 

[theoneandonly]

Hi,I have been following this thread with interest as I have one of these twin egr engines in my Benivan.It has got some soot on exhaust pipe but as of yet no fault codes and still runs well.I suspect the Dpf has a minor crack in it.Be good to disable the low pass egr to stop any future problems,so see what develops as a solution.

Here are 2 guides to help you use multiecuscan including an example template.ini file (.txt format and how to use it.)
Initialy get results with Template 5

Tutorial to Measure specific Engine PIDs (Parameter ID) and Save data for analysis.

This was originally written to help one person with his Ducato totally new to MES to start saving data. it is not an exhaustive manual nor intended to be. Tutorial to Measure specific Engine PIDs (Parameter ID) and Save data for analysis. Open...

www.fiatforum.com

Template Examples 2 | Multiecuscan and Alfaobd Pids for X290 Ducato

Template 4 Monitoring for Regen Template 5 General Template 7 Wideband General Template 8 Specific signal monitoring Template 9 Periodic changing parameters

www.fiatforum.com

 

[Hank25]

Here are 2 guides to help you use multiecuscan including an example template.ini file (.txt format and how to use it.)
Initialy get results with Template 5

Tutorial to Measure specific Engine PIDs (Parameter ID) and Save data for analysis.

This was originally written to help one person with his Ducato totally new to MES to start saving data. it is not an exhaustive manual nor intended to be. Tutorial to Measure specific Engine PIDs (Parameter ID) and Save data for analysis. Open...

www.fiatforum.com

Template Examples 2 | Multiecuscan and Alfaobd Pids for X290 Ducato

Template 4 Monitoring for Regen Template 5 General Template 7 Wideband General Template 8 Specific signal monitoring Template 9 Periodic changing parameters

www.fiatforum.com

Here are 2 guides to help you use multiecuscan including an example template.ini file (.txt format and how to use it.)
Initialy get results with Template 5

Tutorial to Measure specific Engine PIDs (Parameter ID) and Save data for analysis.

This was originally written to help one person with his Ducato totally new to MES to start saving data. it is not an exhaustive manual nor intended to be. Tutorial to Measure specific Engine PIDs (Parameter ID) and Save data for analysis. Open...

www.fiatforum.com

Template Examples 2 | Multiecuscan and Alfaobd Pids for X290 Ducato

Template 4 Monitoring for Regen Template 5 General Template 7 Wideband General Template 8 Specific signal monitoring Template 9 Periodic changing parameters

www.fiatforum.com

This program looks very non user friendly,especially since I have only Apple devises.
I am thinking about purchasing a Xtool D7s scanner as it appears to do many funcations I require?
Anyone have any experience using these?

 

[jansla]

@Hank25 same here, everything Apple so I started with Multiecuscan for iOS and that was wasted money! You can see not much more than engine speed in a free version than after paying for the whole year it hangs can not save the data = rubbish. I had to buy a windows laptop - last time I had one was twenty years ago so now have this MES up and runnig. You’re right- not user friendly with rather curly learning curve. But I’ve managed. Still happens that it suddenly stops recording data and looses what was recorded needs restarting from time to time. That reminds me my user’s experience with Win machines before I changed to Mac but may depend on present win laptop which I bought used - hard to tell. What is certainly good with Multiecuscan that it is quite specific and let’s you choose right model and looks like it really dedicated to all brand specific details. So it does what it should and is popular here in this forum and some colleagues here are real masters in translation of recorded data. That is advantage!

 

[theGman]

This program looks very non user friendly,especially since I have only Apple devises.
I am thinking about purchasing a Xtool D7s scanner as it appears to do many funcations I require?
Anyone have any experience using these?

@Hank25 I was the same, all my devices are Apple, I ended up buying a cheap Windows laptop to run MES. MES is is definitely worth the investment.

 

[Fredastaire]

I use a 10 year old windows laptop with MES.
For me it gave the eureka moment when after fitting the new LP EGR cooler I could drive and see on screen the LP EGR working managing it's opening dimension as a constantly varying measurement and to see the LP temperature also being controlled. Previous the LP EGR was either full open or closed. I was the person on here together with the help of @theoneandonly to first understand what's going on.
With the cost of say £100 for a second hand laptop and another 100 for the MES is it that bad?

 

[theoneandonly]

I first bought multiecuscan as it was one of only 2 in the diy world that could reset the oil degradation softwzre and make diy servicing viable for my euro6. My laptop is also 10 years old (running win 10). I use linux on my destop to analise the data. I also use VCDS Vagcom for my vag cars a truely remarkable piece of software (American) but 4 times the price. Mes has its peculiarities ( some are due to the way windows is set up as i found when swaping laptops). The mes guides on here also have thier peculiarities (writen by me) so feed back appreciated. The simulation mode is useful to get experiance in how to navigate an to see what is available. This is very dependent on model selected so very difficult to produce a general manual.

The pid tutorial is under going review and when able to edit will change, use the last 2 pages and the suggested templates ini to start with at least.
As a group/ forum the use of MES and the sharing of data has been vital in the inderstanding of the twin egr engine, much we still dont know. The more we use the same softwzre and share data the more confident we can be in reccommendations. One problem with using different scan tools is the use of subtly different PIDs or units, thus unable to directly compare.

 

[BoultsG]

Hi, a few months ago now we were on our way to Greece. Our MH had covered a little over 42k miles. On our drive down we started to receive P0238 & P0401 errors code,. I have read in some earlier posts on this thread that some had these were triggered within the first 10-20 minutes of travelling. Our own scenario is very similar. From cold we would begin our journey and with 10 minutes or so the error codes would trigger and we would enter into limp mode. I was able to clear the codes and once cleared we were able to continue our journey without any further issues. So far I have changed the MAP sensor and the Turbo solenoid. Our ECU is at version 032. Today I received a 401 error however no limp mode engaged. Over the next few days I’ll read the MES guide and run some test. :-(

 

[Fredastaire]

@BoultsG, if your exhaust has any signs of soot inside the tailpipe then you need to be using MES to look at the LP EGR cooler valve openings and temperature. If the cooler shows full closed, full open (or near on), and low average temperature then you need to either change the cooler or remove it and clean with caustic. ( then look at the injectors for perfection and consider whether/ if to change the DPF). It scares me to think of spending thousands on a new DPF only for injector and other problems destroying it anew.

 

[theoneandonly]

@BoultsG have a read of this guide. if you run my template 5 save the results as a csv fill and post them here. I will look at the results and advise as appropriate.
the paper towel wipe the exhaust test is also vital to understanding whats going on.

Tutorial to Measure specific Engine PIDs (Parameter ID) and Save data for analysis.

This was originally written to help one person with his Ducato totally new to MES to start saving data. it is not an exhaustive manual nor intended to be. Tutorial to Measure specific Engine PIDs (Parameter ID) and Save data for analysis. Open...

www.fiatforum.com

Do you when the ecu was last updated and how many updates (page2 info). now is not the time to jump to conclusions and paranoia. lets do this one step at a time. Several people have had serious problems and have been repaired. There is only one i know of that has had a repeated problem but that was due to diesel bug.
If you get mes sorted and can run template 5 for a few days and issolate precisely when a 401 occurs it will help. if you can do a screen shot of the freeze frame that can help. (freeze frame is the screen shown when the error is highlighted (f3). If you can constantly run mes then as a mil occurs you can delete it. This will get you home. Record as much info as possible. From engine data i have from 15 engines the 401 occur in a simular way. We need to see data to understand what is happening and evaluate how blocked your dpf is.
Please confirm engine details eg 2.3 130, 150 year 2017-1019 no adblu
Are you still travelling or at home?

 

[BoultsG]

@BoultsG have a read of this guide. if you run my template 5 save the results as a csv fill and post them here. I will look at the results and advise as appropriate.
the paper towel wipe the exhaust test is also vital to understanding whats going on.

Tutorial to Measure specific Engine PIDs (Parameter ID) and Save data for analysis.

This was originally written to help one person with his Ducato totally new to MES to start saving data. it is not an exhaustive manual nor intended to be. Tutorial to Measure specific Engine PIDs (Parameter ID) and Save data for analysis. Open...

www.fiatforum.com

Do you when the ecu was last updated and how many updates (page2 info). now is not the time to jump to conclusions and paranoia. lets do this one step at a time. Several people have had serious problems and have been repaired. There is only one i know of that has had a repeated problem but that was due to diesel bug.
If you get mes sorted and can run template 5 for a few days and issolate precisely when a 401 occurs it will help. if you can do a screen shot of the freeze frame that can help. (freeze frame is the screen shown when the error is highlighted (f3). If you can constantly run mes then as a mil occurs you can delete it. This will get you home. Record as much info as possible. From engine data i have from 15 engines the 401 occur in a simular way. We need to see data to understand what is happening and evaluate how blocked your dpf is.
Please confirm engine details eg 2.3 130, 150 year 2017-1019 no adblu
Are you still travelling or at home?

We have a 2018 2.3 150 Multijet with a conformatic gear box. no adblu. We had her from new and completed all current 49k miles. The last ECU update would have been carried out late 2019 when we had the only dealer service done The current version is 032. Though I will double check when I have MES up and running. We are back in the UK for a few months. I'll take a look at the guide, check the exhaust and hopefull have some data in the next few days.

 

[aschoots]

P0401 - I have a bright idea but dont know how to execute it.
.
Ive had a LP EGR in my hands and studied it. its much like a house drain pipe 't joint.'; it has three holes. 1/. in from the air cleaner 2/. in from the exhaust silencer 3/. out to the turbo inlet.
No 2 has a n EGR flap valve operated by an electric motor, this flap pivot rod has a disc cam
No 1 has a butterfly disc to work as a throttle, it takes its positional drive by a roller follower from No 2 disc cam
The disc cam does nothing for (say) half the EGR opening and then it rapidly operates the No 1 butterfly to close off the clean air from the air filter.
the system is designed to allow entry of the dirty exhaust and by reducing the clean air it can provide a blended air to the turbo.
.
When the LP EGR Cooler becomes soot clogged the engine ECU calls for a bigger opening of No2 EGR Flap which in turn closes off the butterfly disc.
The engine is now throttled and cannot breath any air, the ECU gives a daft demand for the HP EGR to compensate and open wider than its design, parameter thus we get fault codes and limp mode.
.
So my proposal is to remove the original LP throttle disc cam and replace it with one of a new design which performs no closing of the No 2 butterfly. (the Butterfly thus redundant).
.
With the LP EGR in your hands its a quick cover off, undo three screws and remove the cam for exchange for the new design replacement.
.
The mega problem is that its difficult to even see the LP EGR never mind undo anything.
.
Im wondering if its possible to remove the silencer and the engine stabiliser bar under the engine to allow you to tilt the engine forwards. if one could do this there are only abut 6-8 screws to enable removing the plastic cover and reach the disc cam. (it still wouldnt be easy, access very tight).
.
The result would be no throttling and air starvation as the cooler blocks, no software changes. It wouldnt need the LP EGR removal.
.
So.......ideas anybody?
.
(ive a pencil sketch of the replacement disc cam.

We've had this issue 20months ago (some 30-35k miles since then) DPF failure / leak was the cause. Replaced the DPF (new - 2yr guarantee) and the LP-EGR cooler and valve (used / clean). The P0238 error has just come back, on every cold start after ca 10 min driving, reset and no problem rest of the day. I know this will progress into P0238 and P0401 occuring very frequently if nonaction is taken.

I like the idea very much. Simple mechanical change, no software mod needed. Would need to he done only once, I would be happy to pay a garage to replace the LP-EGR valve by a modded one if this means no more limp mode in future.

But... the ECU software is "smart", I am afraid it will see that the (clean) air flow sensor sees too much flow related to the LP-EGR valve position and throw another error.

Anybody here that can shine a light on this?

If this occurs, I guess that - based on "normal" data as logged with MES - with a bit of electronics it would be possible to give the ECU the air flow signal it is expecting based on the LP-EGR valve position...