Technical Ducato P0401 P0402 P0236 P0238 and limp mode its 2017 Euro 6, EGR changed, What do I check next

[Fredastaire]

@theoneandonly I think the 130 doesn't have turbo control position. I think it's the 150 and 180 that have the variable turbo and therefore will have control of the vanes position.
However, are my thoughts correct?

 

[theoneandonly]

@theoneandonly I think the 130 doesn't have turbo control position. I think it's the 150 and 180 that have the variable turbo and therefore will have control of the vanes position.
However, are my thoughts correct?

Yes Correct fred almost said xxxx
even i make the odd error to check if people are taking notice

 

[Poachersmoon]

Hi I am from NZ with the same p0401 issue

2018 130hp twin egr no adblue model 76,000kms

Will start some diagnosis tomorrow but essentially have been told the dpf prob damaged and to gut it, remove the ecu code for it. Possibly same for egr

But I'll do the exhaust test and multi scan software tests

Software is ver. 024 I have

FYI another 2018 model 180hp model my friend has only done 30,000kms last year the installed ver. 032 so must have been as a precaution (had no issues). Just interesting to know the dealer did this regardless (sadly not mine!)

Apreciated the forum here and the time spent trying to get to the solution on this for everyone and hopefully I can help

 

[BoultsG]

@BoultsG
due to the timing issue it will be necessary to split into smaller chunks still try to do 10 mins with a warm engine.

View attachment 430978

View attachment 430977
This is the most important.
View attachment 430976

Thanks @theoneandonly I'll head out this morning and run the templates.

 

[Fredastaire]

@Poachersmoon welcome to the club, our members for just this post are from.far and wide.
.
I note the thoughts on deleting the DPF, alas for those of us in UK it's a legal offence.
.
I'm still hoping for a mechanical component dodge to just the LP EGR thus leaving the HP EGR operating.
.
My thoughts on the butterfly cam plate have been mentioned, the other might be to modify the cooler temp probe output so the LP EGR closes early to protect the ongoing pipework to the turbo from excessive temperature.
.
I trust we can help in our roundabout way.

 

[BoultsG]

Similar to yesterday. @theoneandonly using your templates in order from top to bottom; I setup template 1 ran the engine on idle for 5-10 minutes then headed of to a close by dual carriageway. Within few miles I received a 401 & 402 error with the 402 error our vehicle was put into limp mode. the data is in ( xxxFile1 ). I then cleared the errors, loaded template 2 and drove for around 12 minutes ( xxxFile2 ) no dramas. And finally loaded template 3, template 3 is a longer drive as we completed our journey to the supermarket. ( xxxFile3 ). Also no dramas.

 

[CheeseMonster]

Similar to yesterday. @theoneandonly using your templates in order from top to bottom; I setup template 1 ran the engine on idle for 5-10 minutes then headed of to a close by dual carriageway. Within few miles I received a 401 & 402 error with the 402 error our vehicle was put into limp mode. the data is in ( xxxFile1 ). I then cleared the errors, loaded template 2 and drove for around 12 minutes ( xxxFile2 ) no dramas. And finally loaded template 3, template 3 is a longer drive as we completed our journey to the supermarket. ( xxxFile3 ). Also no dramas.

@theoneandonly Looking at File3 it seems to me as though the Turbo Actuator Command (column G) is around 50% no matter what the revs. Can you explain please? I would have expected this to move between 0% and 100% depending on the power requirements.
Thanks

 

[Fredastaire]

Interesting to see how on the one hand it's saying HP EGR blocked yet on the events list below it's saying that the requested HP was zero and actual nearly zero. As well as the factory inbuilt problems of the actual cooler blocking because of the DPF heat damage it's still to me obvious that the software 'fault diagnosis and it's statement of fact' is wrong.
.
The van is so far as I can see behaving exactly as our did. Of point to note, I changed the MAP and Turbo Solenoid and problems disappeared for a good while before the final double whammy which needed the cooler change. Much that I've had over a year without problems I just wonder how long before it clogs again.

 

[BoultsG]

Interesting to see how on the one hand it's saying HP EGR blocked yet on the events list below it's saying that the requested HP was zero and actual nearly zero. As well as the factory inbuilt problems of the actual cooler blocking because of the DPF heat damage it's still to me obvious that the software 'fault diagnosis and it's statement of fact' is wrong.
.
The van is so far as I can see behaving exactly as our did. Of point to note, I changed the MAP and Turbo Solenoid and problems disappeared for a good while before the final double whammy which needed the cooler change. Much that I've had over a year without problems I just wonder how long before it clogs again.

@Fredastaire I can’t remember where I read pretty sure it was this forum re some had changed the MAP, Turbo solenoid and had the software updated to V32. I have done all of those and we are still getting 401, 402 and 238 errors :-(

 

[Fredastaire]

@BoultsG , thats me who detailed my way through this saga. If you personal message me with your email address I'll send my notes for you to read through
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It was using multiecuscan (MES), that I (with help from @theoneandonly) worked out the next step was to change the LP EGR cooler. THEN by using MES I had the lightbulb moment of watching the LP EGR opening and closing in a variable manner to control the amount of exhaust gas flowing.
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If your cooler filter is carbon blocked then its carbon blocked!!! No amount of other components changing is going to have any cleaning effect. I think that my other components change gave me a few thousand miles miles freedom as it was compensating a little. Then I changed the cooler....

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The question now is how much collateral damage there is. You need to know if it's also wrecked the injectors first.
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This whole saga needs 10 - 15 minutes running with MES connected and record the various parameters as recommended by @theoneandonly, then the story will unfold
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It's just not a simple event and far from simple solution

If only we can get to manageable state then we have a Euro 6 sevel van without the aggro and risks of Adblue. You only have to read up the tales of big repair bills on Boxers and Relays to know the problems and expensive repairs to fifth injectors, pumps and Adblue tanks.

 

[theoneandonly]

The Wifi OBD adaptor i s a limmiting factor in this investigation it is running at the same speed as my BT but only measuring 5 PIDs at a time not allowing some of the comparisons would have concidered eg comparing the Freeze frame data with air and turbo info, but hey ho. something i hadnt concidered previously.

These values are just outside the FIAT limmits of +- 2

From my Guide on

DPF Differential Pressure sensor Diagnosis with MES​

What is an acceptable figure for DPF Differential Pressure (measured in mbar)? The answer is as little as possible. But if it flatlines at zero its dead.
Adding back pressure will make the engine work harder, and use more fuel to deliver the same power.

<20 Brilliant DPF causing almost no restriction
20-99 Good result and typical of a DPF in good working order
100-250 DPF causing up to 0.25 BAR of pressure – needs investigation
250-500 Serious restriction probably not allowing car to do a Forced Regen
So above graph is typical of a working system

The max and mean temperatures are good, the graph is typical of an engine getting upto temperature and not blocked.

The valve opens mostly Max to Min but does have some intermediate positions. This was not obvious with other results as these are inbetween the collected results. Is it blocked? IF there were more intermediate positions (1-3) i would say no. But with these values i will look at some other results first.

 

[theoneandonly]

@theoneandonly Looking at File3 it seems to me as though the Turbo Actuator Command (column G) is around 50% no matter what the revs. Can you explain please? I would have expected this to move between 0% and 100% depending on the power requirements.
Thanks

As Fredastaire says this is only applicable to the variable vane variants as yet ive not charecterised one so i dont know. On Fiats the obvious does not always follow common sense eg a degraded oil is 200% degraded not 100%.

Interesting to see how on the one hand it's saying HP EGR blocked yet on the events list below it's saying that the requested HP was zero and actual nearly zero. As well as the factory inbuilt problems of the actual cooler blocking because of the DPF heat damage it's still to me obvious that the software 'fault diagnosis and it's statement of fact' is wrong.
.
The van is so far as I can see behaving exactly as our did. Of point to note, I changed the MAP and Turbo Solenoid and problems disappeared for a good while before the final double whammy which needed the cooler change. Much that I've had over a year without problems I just wonder how long before it clogs again.

The 401 here follows the norm of a 401 with problems with desired value exceeding 3000 and input 25% of desired , todays 401,402 do not concide with the measurements. the freeze frame is 31% of desired (in the range of other reported 401s)
Not finished looking.

 

[CheeseMonster]

While I'm sat in a field and there's no other campers about I thought I'd see what my Turbo Actuator Command (TAC) looks like. See attached.

I did read that TAC is to do with the wastegate, although I guess fiat could call it what they like.

Tomorrow I've to drive some motorway so will log it again (2017 130BHP engine).

 

[theoneandonly]

While I'm sat in a field and there's no other campers about I thought I'd see what my Turbo Actuator Command (TAC) looks like. See attached.

I did read that TAC is to do with the wastegate, although I guess fiat could call it what they like.

Tomorrow I've to drive some motorway so will log it again (2017 130BHP engine).

Will be interesting if you add the air inputs and the boost values

 

[CheeseMonster]

View attachment 431023

Will be interesting if you add the air inputs and the boost values

Please clarify air inputs.

 

[BoultsG]

The Wifi OBD adaptor i s a limmiting factor in this investigation it is running at the same speed as my BT but only measuring 5 PIDs at a time not allowing some of the comparisons would have concidered eg comparing the Freeze frame data with air and turbo info, but hey ho. something i hadnt concidered previously.
View attachment 431012
These values are just outside the FIAT limmits of +- 2
View attachment 431014
From my Guide on

DPF Differential Pressure sensor Diagnosis with MES​

What is an acceptable figure for DPF Differential Pressure (measured in mbar)? The answer is as little as possible. But if it flatlines at zero its dead.
Adding back pressure will make the engine work harder, and use more fuel to deliver the same power.

<20 Brilliant DPF causing almost no restriction
20-99 Good result and typical of a DPF in good working order
100-250 DPF causing up to 0.25 BAR of pressure – needs investigation
250-500 Serious restriction probably not allowing car to do a Forced Regen
So above graph is typical of a working system
View attachment 431013
The max and mean temperatures are good, the graph is typical of an engine getting upto temperature and not blocked.

The valve opens mostly Max to Min but does have some intermediate positions. This was not obvious with other results as these are inbetween the collected results. Is it blocked? IF there were more intermediate positions (1-3) i would say no. But with these values i will look at some other results first.

@theoneandonly If it helps further with diagnostics I am happy to purchase an alternative OBD adapter. Do you have recommendations?

 

[Fredastaire]

Gendan are now promoting a wireless adapter, I'm careful on wording, are they all Bluetooth?

 

[theoneandonly]

Please clarify air inputs.

Intake air quantity​

Desired intake air quantity​

Boost pressure​

Desired boost pressure​

​

​

​

 

[theoneandonly]

@theoneandonly If it helps further with diagnostics I am happy to purchase an alternative OBD adapter. Do you have recommendations?

I normaly just mention the two i have Usb OBDlinkSX (from Gendan)
For Bluetooth I use a vgate icar pro from ebay £25 they work, cheap £10 ones do not. And let people decide.
In your case any issue could also be laptop or setup. I would suggest the USB as being fastest and safest (for write activities).
Wifi is wireless technology eg used for internet and PC communications. Bluetooth is a very specific form of wireless technology. Both wireless but not same

 

[Poachersmoon]

@Bigruss - is your vehicle all sorted and working well now?

Thanks