Technical Ducato P0401 P0402 P0236 P0238 and limp mode its 2017 Euro 6, EGR changed, What do I check next

[Fredastaire]

Can I bring some comments here.
It is me who started this thread.
I've been though all of this with our 2017 Comfortmatic that I ordered as new build from my Fiat dealer. I've designed and built my camper layout and maintain my own van and car. I've over 50 years of car repair / rebuild / maintenance experience.
These twin EGR no adblue vans are showing multiple problems some related some probably not. Fiat are understood to have realised they has software problems leading to overfuelling which damages components thus there have been revised softwares having reached v32 which has been installed in many vans since about 3 years. As they havnt changed it in those years we can only assume it's 'good'.
It's clear that many vans are surviving ok having probably been updated by their dealer unknown to the owner. Then there are those of us with ongoing problems because of damage in early times.
The original software overfuelling can wreck injectors which in turn wrecks the DPF which in turn clogged the LP EGR cooler and also blocks the intercooler and sometimes the front throttle body.
Separate the turbo solenoids begin to fail at every 25k miles causing hesitatiowastedn and fault codes.
Separate the MAP sensors clog up, also note the factory is known to have fitted wrong part number sensors.
Separate some vans have a problem of wiring harness rubbing body parts and slicing through cables.
Where am I in all this? I now only run high spec diesel 'ultra' and always use Millers additive. I've wasted time replacing the HP EGR because the fcr incorrectly told me so. I've replaced the MAP, the turbo solenoid and finally replacer the LP EGR cooler. My exhaust is slightly sooty which suggests the DPF is cracked.
I'm clear of fault currently and await the next round....
@theoneandonly can add comments.
.
Conclusion - 1/. it's a must that you buy and use MES 2/. You need to know your injectors are within Fiat running spec, 3/.you need V32, 4/.only buy quality 'ultra' spec diesel.
.
I look forward to comment's

 

[TangoQuebec]

Hello everyone.

Victim of the double EGR valve of the Fiat Ducato I add my experience to those already described in this forum.
I bought a new Fiat Ducato 130 HP comfortmatic van in 2017.
After 20000 km I started to have more and more frequent alarms P0236 and P0238, with limp mode (limp mode goes off on restart, EML stays on for 5 or 6 restarts).
The fault usually occurred during slight acceleration.
The vehicle ran perfectly, average consumption 29 mpg, but the exhaust showed traces of soot.
Around 40,000 km, at the beginning of 2022, I entrusted it to my Fiat dealer who made an offer for a software update (V32 I suppose), the replacement of the 4 injectors and the replacement of the particle filter.
An expert, commissioned by my “mechanical breakdown” insurance, validated this proposal and the repair was carried out.
After repair the alarm appeared again but less and less frequently (after 300 km then 500 km then 1000 km and now no more faults since 6000 km).

My personal experience therefore validates the synthesis made by Fredastaire in his last message.

 

[theoneandonly]

Hello everyone.































































































































Victim of the double EGR valve of the Fiat Ducato I add my experience to those already described in this forum.































































I bought a new Fiat Ducato 130 HP comfortmatic van in 2017.































































After 20000 km I started to have more and more frequent alarms P0236 and P0238, with limp mode (limp mode goes off on restart, EML stays on for 5 or 6 restarts).































































The fault usually occurred during slight acceleration.































































The vehicle ran perfectly, average consumption 29 mpg, but the exhaust showed traces of soot.































































Around 40,000 km, at the beginning of 2022, I entrusted it to my Fiat dealer who made an offer for a software update (V32 I suppose), the replacement of the 4 injectors and the replacement of the particle filter.































































An expert, commissioned by my “mechann” insurance, validated this proposal and the repair was carried out.































































After repair the alarm appeared again but less and less frequently (after 300 kmn 500 km then 1000 km and now no more faults since 6000 km).































































































































My personal experience therefore validates the synthesis made by Fredastaire in his last message.

Hello everyone.

Victim of the double EGR valve of the Fiat Ducato I add my experience to those already described in this forum.
I bought a new Fiat Ducato 130 HP comfortmatic van in 2017.
After 20000 km I started to have more and more frequent alarms P0236 and P0238, with limp mode (limp mode goes off on restart, EML stays on for 5 or 6 restarts).
The fault usually occurred during slight acceleration.
The vehicle ran perfectly, average consumption 29 mpg, but the exhaust showed traces of soot.
Around 40,000 km, at the beginning of 2022, I entrusted it to my Fiat dealer who made an offer for a software update (V32 I suppose), the replacement of the 4 injectors and the replacement of the particle filter.
An expert, commissioned by my “mechanical breakdown” insurance, validated this proposal and the repair was carried out.
After repair the alarm appeared again but less and less frequently (after 300 km then 500 km then 1000 km and now no more faults since 6000 km).

My personal experience therefore validates the synthesis made by Fredastaire in his last message.

Glad to hear the problems appear to be behind you.
Do you have a list of works or parts that were changed ?
you mention injectors and dpf were other parts changed eg egr valve egr cooler.
Do you know the version of software before the work. This is all trying to build a bigger picture. Was this carried out at Fiat cost or another insurance?

 

[Bigruss]

My last post for Engine Z in our tacking register was in June 2022 - at which time I was expecting replacement parts (including the DPF) in 10 weeks.
Most parts arrived within a month, but the DPF took 7 months to arrive - 30 weeks.

The local agent (who work on Fiats a lot) said the job was sufficiently difficult, that in retrospect they would have removed the engine to do the work. This way the truck wouldn't have to be on their main hoist the whole time, stopping other jobs progressing.

$16,000 NZD or £9000 GBP later, the DPF, LPEGR, LPEGR Cooler, and two lambda sensors have been replaced.
The HPEGR, MAP Sensor, and turbo actuator valve and associated piping, had been done by myself earlier 2022.

Immediately, temperatures after the DPF get to 100 degC, whereas prior to this work 58 degC was the limit.
So far, I have had no dreaded 236 or 238 fault codes, however mileage has been light, and testing continues.

I cut open the returned parts for photographing, to add to our knowledge pool.
The DPF shows the expected damage.
The LPEGR shows the expected tar / soot / black slime coverage.
The LPEGR cooler was the interesting one - after being cut in half, I shook out around 1 Tablespoon of small chunky black and ash coloured debris. The debris is up to 1mm across - much chunkier than soot - more like charcoal from an old fire.

 

[theoneandonly]

@Bigruss thanks for the continuing story, especially the cut away photos. So this is what a a cracked DPF looks like. The LPEGR cooler is interesting, more complex than i originaly had in mind. Does the coolant run around the oval chanels or through them?

 

[Fredastaire]

@Bigruss thanks also from me, I had been wondering if the EGR cooler mesh could be removed, now understanding the carbon particle size; if this went straight through it would first impact the high speed turbo vanes, (never mind what it would do thereafter inside the engine bores /pistons).
If only Fiat would come up with their knowledge of history and advise us of why and what to do.
.
I also wonder if their was a bad batch of DPF units or if the ones bought now are any more resistant to being burnt out.

 

[TangoQuebec]

Glad to hear the problems appear to be behind you.
Do you have a list of works or parts that were changed ?
you mention injectors and dpf were other parts changed eg egr valve egr cooler.
Do you know the version of software before the work. This is all trying to build a bigger picture. Was this carried out at Fiat cost or another insurance?

Only the 4 injectors and the dpf have been changed.
I do not know the versions of the software before and after the intervention, I only know that it is the injection software and the comfortmatic gearbox software (since this update the torque below 1800 rev/min seems to have been increased).
The insurance expert had requested at least partial coverage by Fiat France, which was refused. Finally the insurance took care of the repair (about 6000€).

 

[theoneandonly]

Only the 4 injectors and the dpf have been changed.
I do not know the versions of the software before and after the intervention, I only know that it is the injection software and the comfortmatic gearbox software (since this update the torque below 1800 rev/min seems to have been increased).
The insurance expert had requested at least partial coverage by Fiat France, which was refused. Finally the insurance took care of the repair (about 6000€).

Thanks for info, it all adds to the bigger picture.

 

[theoneandonly]

Fuel Quality?
The big question .
@Fredastaire Talks about this being important and uses Premium fuel and additives ( i regularly add injector cleaners) but is there any backup to this theory other than he has the best injector variance graph i have seen.
Recently i seen a fuel report taken for an van on its second rebuild from Fiat. It was interesting reading (after i read about fuel testing). The main conclusion was the contamination levels were 10 times the limits, this was very significant at the bacteria sizes and though no reference was made this could well have been Diesel bug.
So a question (or 2)
Does diesel bug assist or promote soot production, unclean burn?
How do we know we have diesel bug, any simple tests on fuel?
do additives have anti bacterial agents to keep them at bay?
a quick search gives
Some of the ways to tell if your fuel is contaminated include, but are not limited to, the following:

• Blocked filters that need changing on a regular basis
• Sediments that may look like coffee in the filters
• Engines suddenly losing power
• Bad or rotten fuel smell or black smoke from the exhaust
• Fuel injectors needing frequent cleaning and replacing
• Increase in fuel consumption
• Sudden engine stoppages or Difficulty in starting the engine
• Fuel discolouration – milky and cloudy appearance

Knowing which signs to look for and acting quickly can help you to prevent problems associated with the diesel bug.
Modern diesel fuel is so highly refined that it begins to break down after 6-12 months. This is when the danger begins for diesel bug. As water is more dense than diesel it will sink to the bottom, allowing the bug a better hiding place from any cursory checks. The boat world have a greater knowlege on this subject.

So what this all about then?
please think about it are you suffering or have any specific knowledge.
What would be a good treatment plan?
What would be a good way forward? any suggested products.

 

[Bigruss]

@Bigruss thanks for the continuing story, especially the cut away photos. So this is what a a cracked DPF looks like. The LPEGR cooler is interesting, more complex than i originaly had in mind. Does the coolant run around the oval chanels or through them?

The cooler runs around the oval channels. In this picture, the LPEGR Cooler is filled with water from the coolant inlet - you can see the water outside the ovals as a black shiny reflective surface.

 

[theoneandonly]

@Bigruss thanks for the picture, thats a lot of small chanels to block.

 

[Masztiff]

Hello
I have twin egr engine with manual gearbox.I.have same problem with my car and last year change to new complete engine.The car with 715.000 km with 170.000 km engine.The dpf didnt change since 0 km but make washing cleaning when engine change (540.000 km).
Software dpf off and the check engine didnt come till 60.000 km.Now the yellow light on with nox 1 sensor (p2200)fault.Nox sensor change but the problem.not solved.I make log with MES and the Pre Catalyst temp somtimes going down -15 celsius.Pre cat temp sensor change (then regeneration working) 1.5 Month later the p2200 code come up again with p1219-63 excessiver regeneration time.So i log again (i make logs in regeneration also with faulty sensor then with good sensor).Every 60 km regenaration.The Regeneration temp maxx: 350 celsius so the shoots didnt burn and regenaration didnt work.Now the problem i didnt find what cause the problem.The diff pressure sensor on idle 8 mbar on 2000 45 mbar and the maximum under load 125 mbar.The temp sensors write normal temps.So my question why regenerate the car every 60 km if the diff pressure not too high and what cause the low dpf temp ?

 

[Camper1]

Hello
I have twin egr engine with manual gearbox.I.have same problem with my car and last year change to new complete engine.The car with 715.000 km with 170.000 km engine.The dpf didnt change since 0 km but make washing cleaning when engine change (540.000 km).
Software dpf off and the check engine didnt come till 60.000 km.Now the yellow light on with nox 1 sensor (p2200)fault.Nox sensor change but the problem.not solved.I make log with MES and the Pre Catalyst temp somtimes going down -15 celsius.Pre cat temp sensor change (then regeneration working) 1.5 Month later the p2200 code come up again with p1219-63 excessiver regeneration time.So i log again (i make logs in regeneration also with faulty sensor then with good sensor).Every 60 km regenaration.The Regeneration temp maxx: 350 celsius so the shoots didnt burn and regenaration didnt work.Now the problem i didnt find what cause the problem.The diff pressure sensor on idle 8 mbar on 2000 45 mbar and the maximum under load 125 mbar.The temp sensors write normal temps.So my question why regenerate the car every 60 km if the diff pressure not too high and what cause the low dpf temp ?

Hello, you wrote about software DPF off and then continue with dpf regeneration etc... you ment EGR off?

 

[BobSlo]

What about injectors, did you record the values of the corrections. If the injectors are overfueling excesive soot is produced and the exhaust gases can not heat the DPF to required 600 degrees. Why the diferential pressure is normal is mistery. What is the percentage of cloging…..

 

[Masztiff]

Hello, you wrote about software DPF off and then continue with dpf regeneration etc... you ment EGR off?

Sorry Egr off Dpf on

 

[Masztiff]

What about injectors, did you record the values of the corrections. If the injectors are overfueling excesive soot is produced and the exhaust gases can not heat the DPF to required 600 degrees. Why the diferential pressure is normal is mistery. What is the percentage of cloging…..

The complete new engine built in then 40.000 drive and log first my car with MES. The first and fourth injector variance sometimes out of range but just 40.000 km drive with the car.Now 170.000 km have in engine so i drive with the car 130.000 km with bad injectors ? Some people here have same issue with variance change to brand new and variance didnt change.But i check the exhaust pipe and dirty.If the dpf shoot up and clogged what cause the clogging and why normal my differential pressure ? I upload my logs today

 

[Camper1]

The complete new engine built in then 40.000 drive and log first my car with MES. The first and fourth injector variance sometimes out of range but just 40.000 km drive with the car.Now 170.000 km have in engine so i drive with the car 130.000 km with bad injectors ? Some people here have same issue with variance change to brand new and variance didnt change.But i check the exhaust pipe and dirty.If the dpf shoot up and clogged what cause the clogging and why normal my differential pressure ? I upload my logs today

I recognize arround 100 000 km black exhaust pipe so I ment DPF is gone. I went to technical control to measure parameters and it was OK so I am able to pass.
Then I found this very useful forum and thank you all I started investigate with my mechanic. I pass the emmision contol but in case of real driving to hill there was to much smoke. So I let mechanic to change injectors. Driving and power much better consuption lover and not to much smoke. When I cleaned exaust pipe it comes little dirty. DPF is regenerating cca after each 550km.

I am sure based what on all your experiences that my DPF is broken but still working in tollerance... and new one is 5000 EUR so I decided not to change it yet.

I had error code with HP EGR but not often and no emrgency low power engine mode.

I asked in FIAT to upgrade firmware (I have v23) to version v32 but they do not have it available for my engine and still investigating for it.

So I see that all problems are cause by broken injectors which somebody tell after 100 000km its OK but some people have here jut half or less with same problem.

I discussed with engine tuners what can be difference in v23 and v32 regarding fule injectors impact and the answer was it is inlikely that this is problem it will not be 100k km OK....

If you look what is happening by breaking DPF and soot is comming to low EGR (which is normally clean) ther is same soot comming to engine like from HP EGR - pleas correct me if I am wrong.

Best will be to have right explanation if it is just very sensitive construction of overal engine with DPF like this regarding wrong injectors... or there is some real construction error which means it will come back to all of us.

Or the upgrade to v32 with new injector is real fix of the problem?

Do you have some good support in FIAT service for this issue because I dont?

Thanks in advance for your opinions and advices.

 

[Masztiff]

The software update didnt help.My engine get the update but the problem didnt solve.Injector variance out of range.
Hesitate: The car make hesitate from 0 km.The update also didnt solve the hesitation.The hesitation make the boost solenoid valve range: 70-95 percent.The good valve make 40-50 procent when accelerate harder..I change to new solenoid valve the range now between 40-95 bit the hesitation not solved.If you log with mes when car hesitation the solenoid valve go from 95 to 40 bit the throttle didnt change.

 

[theoneandonly]

@Masztiff and @Camper1 What levals of injector variances are you getting have you any MES data some csv files we could look at, either post here or PM me. as @BobSlo says the differential pressure sensor data is confusing. Can you get a simple vacuum tester (eg a brake bleeding system ) and apply a vacuum to pipes and read on mes. Check for water in the lines.

 

[Camper1]

@Masztiff and @Camper1 What levals of injector variances are you getting have you any MES data some csv files we could look at, either post here or PM me. as @BobSlo says the differential pressure sensor data is confusing. Can you get a simple vacuum tester (eg a brake bleeding system ) and apply a vacuum to pipes and read on mes. Check for water in the lines.

Injectors corrections I had on old (before change) just on started engine not driving over 2mm^3 now on band new on I have on started engine less than 2mm^3. During driving it is going more than 2 mm^3. I have MES only on mobile and its not easy to record such good graph like on laptop. Somebody explained to me that correcation is not oly about injector, it can be also connected to not proper valve or other aspects in engine...

One engine tuner told me that all tis problems can be connected with not proper change of timing belt and if there is not corrent timing averything go wrong... but there are sensors of rpm in engine so in case of bad timing it will go immediatelly to limp mode.