Technical Rusted rear wheel drum won't move

[AnthonyH]

Also I see the adjuster on handbrake is quite a way up already, strange if new rear shoes fitted and correctly set up. The n/s cable at handbrake appears to be traveling further and is it my imagination or is the handbrake lever moving sideways towards you when you pull it on, is it secure?
I know it is a bit of a learning curve, but always best to double check as you go along, particularly with brakes.

From these posts it looks like the cable is sticking/jammed against the shoes, so drums off and get the handbrake working now

 

[AnthonyH]

Thanks for your replies. The offside is amiss, unless the cable is really slackened off at the handbrake lever then the spring mechanism is touching the hub. I've circled that in red.

When really slackened off the handbrake does seem to work, in that the spring mechanism is off the hub and the shoes are tightened and loosened. I've tried moving things around but its not interested in working properly. This cable doesn't look original to the car, is a bit gnarled at the handbrake in the cabin and its head didn't fit nicely into the grove holding it onto the spring mechanism. Scratching my head

 

[bugsymike]

It does look odd, how does it compare with the N/S and how does it compare with what you took off to replace it.
If part is correct and assembled and adjusted correctly I would expect the lever to be set fully to the left in your picture up against the brake shoe, with the spring providing return pressure so that the cable returns when handbrake lever is released the lever returns fully to it's stop position against the shoe.
If that is the case and adjusted manually at the adjuster across the shoes so that when drum fitted and turning freely then only a small amount of handbrake lever movement will start to activate the hand brake.

 

[AnthonyH]

The hand braking force is mismatched across the two sides. I was adjusting for 5 clicks of the handbrake on the off side handbrake, i got it so that it was hard and holding the drum on 5 clicks, went to check the nearside and the wheel was running freely with no brake force at all.

I didn't look at the spring mechanism on the near side closely but I recall checking that the cable was connected, I'll have another look tomorrow. The shoes I put on were identical to the ones I took off.

 

[The Panda Nut]

I got the second brake on this morning without any problems, i decided to cut the big spring because i had a spare and i was worried about damaging the wheel cylinder while getting the shoes off. The main issue I had was with bleeding the brakes, the regular spanner i'm using doesn't have good access to the bleed nut so i'm struggling to nip it up in time because it'll only do a micro turn before having to come off.

The brake fluid I took out today looks a lot worse than in the other back brake line, it was coming out all milky and has turned the more or less clean dot 4 that was in this bottle kind of murky. Is there are any reason for this?

View attachment 434407



On a side note my wife was around today and so I got her to pump the brake, but then nothing was happening so I go to see what she's doing and I can see her foot on the accelerator pedal. So I said "you're supposed to be pumping the brake" and she replied "Oh yes, sorry, I was pumping the accelerator, and also the last time I helped you!" Then she laughed with uproar. I can see the funny side of this

You are a very nice man then!

 

[AnthonyH]

You are a very nice man then!

Why thank you. I've made a mistake or two myself so it wouldn't be fair to make much out of hers. What's your new icon car?

 

[AnthonyH]

I opened up the hub on the nearside to look at the spring mechanism of the handbrake and it is similar to the offside pictured above, so I think the spring mechanism touches the hub when the drum isn't on and this isn't the problem.

I tried adjusting the handbrake today, but had no luck. I moved the shoes around on the offside to try to get it to work but no. It looks like a handbrake cable that is too short has been fitted, or the cable is somehow wrapped around something under the car, or something else similar.

 

[vexorg]

I'd have both drums off at the same time to compare the cables, length and when they start to move the shoes. You should be able to put the handbrake on with the drums off to see the movement (just bearing in mind the self adjuster may need reset if it has one).

 

[bugsymike]

Maybe several more close up photos of both sides with drums off and if you can do it safely the layout/route of both handbrake cables from underneath.
Maybe one of us can see what is wrong, it is always harder when not by the vehicle.
With both drums off I would like to see the handbrake levers against their stops inside the drums with the handbrake off, then pulled up and then again released when of course the levers should be back in their fully off position.
Make sure there is photos of both self adjusters to compare.

 

[jackwhoo]

The handbrake must be fully slackened off before fitting shoes and self adjusters.
Then the self adjusters MUST be set manually so shoes near drum. Then the foot brake operated so the self adjusters finish adjusting . Only after that attempt adjust hand brake cable

 

[vexorg]

Then the self adjusters MUST be set manually so shoes near drum. Then the foot brake operated so the self adjusters finish adjusting .

Make sure the drum is on at that point

 

[AnthonyH]

Make sure the drum is on at that point

Yep got that one lol

 

[AnthonyH]

The handbrake must be fully slackened off before fitting shoes and self adjusters.
Then the self adjusters MUST be set manually so shoes near drum. Then the foot brake operated so the self adjusters finish adjusting . Only after that attempt adjust hand brake cable

I have done all of these.

 

[AnthonyH]

Maybe several more close up photos of both sides with drums off and if you can do it safely the layout/route of both handbrake cables from underneath.
Maybe one of us can see what is wrong, it is always harder when not by the vehicle.
With both drums off I would like to see the handbrake levers against their stops inside the drums with the handbrake off, then pulled up and then again released when of course the levers should be back in their fully off position.
Make sure there is photos of both self adjusters to compare.

I'll do this as soon as practical. Some context, I bought this car with the bumper hanging off, a window out, huge scrapes across 3 panels, 4 bald tyres, bad brakes, strut mount etc. So a previous mechanic putting on a short handbrake cable and the owner driving it is quite possible.

 

[jackwhoo]

Please post photos of both the handbrake levers attached to shoes with handbrake not applied.

 

[AnthonyH]

I took the handbrake off and slackened it to around 10 clicks to pull up.

I got the drums off and took a picture of the handbrake levers, neither are alongside the shoes, they are pulled out more or less evenly by about 2cm. The first picture is the offside, second one nearside.

I also took some pictures of the cable route and felt along their pathway, the only untoward thing I found was that someone had put a kind of plastic and cable ties around one part of the offside cable path, I've put a picture of that below. That's probably a protective coat, it felt OK as I put my hand along it, and there wasn't anything knotted or caught up.

 

[bugsymike]

Can't see N/S but O/s is definitely wrong if cable backed off and handbrake off, judging by position of handbrake lever not against stop on shoe.

 

[AnthonyH]

Both handbrake levers are in a similar position off the shoes, I'll have a dig around in the car tomorrow. In the car itself I think someone has had some pliers on the offside cable, trying to pull it up and in the process taking off the plastic cable cover.

 

[The Panda Nut]

If it were me I would cut off that stuff on the cable(s) so you can then examine them. Our outer cable sheathing was damaged and this was pointed out at MOT a while back saying it needed a new cable. I checked it was just the plastic covering, so wrapped it with plastic tape. Where the cables enter the outer, there should be a rubber bellows / gaiter, but these perish and disappear after a few years. The potential for water and dirt to enter the outer is increased after these have gone. I have made sure that I have worked plenty of copper slip up into the outer at the ends and re pack this regularly ish. (Best done after a good dry spell so its not sealing in water) When disconnected the inner cable should be easily movable with a pair of pliers and of course both should move the same extent. Glad to see you are getting on top slowly. I had so much trouble in my early years of motoring, with drum brakes, I hate them irrationally. I think when the rear discs on my 4x4 need changing I will maybe change my mind a bit. There are some advantages to drums on the back of small cars which I should accept. If you end up buying cables, I would recommend genuine ones. I had a garage fit one to my Bravo and they used a well known make spare. It was much thinner than the origianl and longer and because the routing was bad it rubbed the inside wall of a brand new tyre out in 150 miles. I was not best pleased and made them change it for a Fiat part. Saving of around £20 ruined a £100 tyre, NOT WORTH IT. Good luck with sorting this.

 

[AnthonyH]

If it were me I would cut off that stuff on the cable(s) so you can then examine them. Our outer cable sheathing was damaged and this was pointed out at MOT a while back saying it needed a new cable. I checked it was just the plastic covering, so wrapped it with plastic tape. Where the cables enter the outer, there should be a rubber bellows / gaiter, but these perish and disappear after a few years. The potential for water and dirt to enter the outer is increased after these have gone. I have made sure that I have worked plenty of copper slip up into the outer at the ends and re pack this regularly ish. (Best done after a good dry spell so its not sealing in water) When disconnected the inner cable should be easily movable with a pair of pliers and of course both should move the same extent. Glad to see you are getting on top slowly. I had so much trouble in my early years of motoring, with drum brakes, I hate them irrationally. I think when the rear discs on my 4x4 need changing I will maybe change my mind a bit. There are some advantages to drums on the back of small cars which I should accept. If you end up buying cables, I would recommend genuine ones. I had a garage fit one to my Bravo and they used a well known make spare. It was much thinner than the origianl and longer and because the routing was bad it rubbed the inside wall of a brand new tyre out in 150 miles. I was not best pleased and made them change it for a Fiat part. Saving of around £20 ruined a £100 tyre, NOT WORTH IT. Good luck with sorting this.

I can't currently see any way to avoid replacing the handbrake cable on the offside. I don't need to change both do I?

I'm not wholly sure how I'm going to thread the cable underneath the car, I won't have good access without putting it on my ramps and that's not such a good idea without the handbrake working! lol.

Drum brakes are a pain, I guess now I'm more or less OK with getting them on and off, putting a new handbrake on won't be such a big deal. But we'll see about that!