Technical Fiat grande punto 2009 won't start!

[JohnyCash]

There are lots of videos on youtube for "Fiat no crank no start"

Thanks for the video Zardo tried this but not sure where/how can i ground the engine to see if that would start it at all. Tried to clip it anywhere on the engine, but I'm almost certain that's not the correct way! Looking at the video he just jams it somewhere on the engine to ground it.

 

[JohnyCash]

I'll ask again.
How long did you leave it running before switching off.

As far as i can remember it did run for few minutes or so then turned it off. Could that cause an issue?

 

[Zardo]

Thanks for the video Zardo tried this but not sure where/how can i ground the engine to see if that would start it at all. Tried to clip it anywhere on the engine, but I'm almost certain that's not the correct way! Looking at the video he just jams it somewhere on the engine to ground it.

Basically, the starter motor is permanently connected to the (negative) earth by its metallic connection to the engine block. The battery negative is connected to the earth via the chassis on one or more earth points.

The starter motor draws a lot of current, but only if the resistance of the positive and negative connection to the battery is extremely low, and if it actually gets a positive voltage triggered by the ignition key.

With older cars, the earth strap corrodes, which increases the resistance between battery negative and starter negative. This increase of resistance has first only a minor effect on the rest of the car electrics, but as it gets bigger, a lot of bizzare errors might appear.

To create a direct negative connection to the starter motor, connect a jumper cable between batterie NEGATIVE and anywhere metallic, it's best close to the starter motor or on the bolt with which the starter motor is fixed to the engine, but if that bolt isn't corroded as well then anywhere metallic on the engine (unpainted) with a good grip of the jumper cable on the engine block will do.

You need to connect only the negative (black) part of the jumper cable, don't connect the red part. You only re-establish the negative connection.

With that jumper cable correctly in place, turn the ignition on and start the engine, if a bad earth strap was the only issue, it should now start.

Visually check the earth strap as well.

If it still does'nt start, search for other issues.

 

[Burble]

As far as i can remember it did run for few minutes or so then turned it off. Could that cause an issue?

If it was for a few minutes then that's probably OK, but starting a 'modern' car and turning it off before it has time to warm up can often cause a subsequent shutdown as neat fuel gets through to the o2 sensor.

 

[JohnyCash]

If it was for a few minutes then that's probably OK, but starting a 'modern' car and turning it off before it has time to warm up can often cause a subsequent shutdown as neat fuel gets through to the o2 sensor.

Hmm.. Thanks forl letting me know and what is the fix for that if it happens?

 

[JohnyCash]

Basically, the starter motor is permanently connected to the (negative) earth by its metallic connection to the engine block. The battery negative is connected to the earth via the chassis on one or more earth points.

The starter motor draws a lot of current, but only if the resistance of the positive and negative connection to the battery is extremely low, and if it actually gets a positive voltage triggered by the ignition key.

With older cars, the earth strap corrodes, which increases the resistance between battery negative and starter negative. This increase of resistance has first only a minor effect on the rest of the car electrics, but as it gets bigger, a lot of bizzare errors might appear.

To create a direct negative connection to the starter motor, connect a jumper cable between batterie NEGATIVE and anywhere metallic, it's best close to the starter motor or on the bolt with which the starter motor is fixed to the engine, but if that bolt isn't corroded as well then anywhere metallic on the engine (unpainted) with a good grip of the jumper cable on the engine block will do.

You need to connect only the negative (black) part of the jumper cable, don't connect the red part. You only re-establish the negative connection.

With that jumper cable correctly in place, turn the ignition on and start the engine, if a bad earth strap was the only issue, it should now start.

Visually check the earth strap as well.

If it still does'nt start, search for other issues.

Thanks man much appreciated i will give it a go after work and see what's up. Will update later thanks again much appreciated =)

 

[Burble]

Hmm.. Thanks forl letting me know and what is the fix for that if it happens?

If that was the cause then leaving it for several hours the sensors dry out and then it will start. You have posted that it has happened before, and at some point presumably you've managed to start it, so it's one possibility.

 

[Mikeldn88]

On these GP models, the starter motor is placed behind the engine, and the rain water comes off the windscreen and directed towards the starter motor.

If you can reach it with a little stick. Give it a few light taps, then try turn over the engine again.

If that's the issue, get a replacement (exchange) from GSF car parts if you have one local. I did mine a few years back. Initially my cheapo mechanic tried to get a crappy ECP starter motor that looked like a toy. The GSF exchange units, use the OEM bodies, just replaced brushes, etc.

 

[Bartoosh]

On these GP models, the starter motor is placed behind the engine, and the rain water comes off the windscreen and directed towards the starter motor.

If you can reach it with a little stick. Give it a few light taps, then try turn over the engine again.

If that's the issue, get a replacement (exchange) from GSF car parts if you have one local. I did mine a few years back. Initially my cheapo mechanic tried to get a crappy ECP starter motor that looked like a toy. The GSF exchange units, use the OEM bodies, just replaced brushes, etc.

And if that's the issue modify the drainage funnel under the scuttle panel so that rainwater doesn't continue to drip on your new starter motor or alternator.

 

[JohnyCash]

Thanks to everyone i did try this option please see the the attached picture. First try nothing still the same outcome as before where the engine is not cranking. I went out to check if the connection was proper in the process of trying to fix that there was sparks and that totally made the electricity in my car go away. Just to clarify this happened when trying to adjust the point on the engine block. After that I connected the earth ground of the battery to the starter motor and what not and electricity came back. So my question could have that spark damaged something in my car?

 

[Zardo]

Thanks to everyone i did try this option please see the the attached picture. First try nothing still the same outcome as before where the engine is not cranking. I went out to check if the connection was proper in the process of trying to fix that there was sparks and that totally made the electricity in my car go away. Just to clarify this happened when trying to adjust the point on the engine block. After that I connected the earth ground of the battery to the starter motor and what not and electricity came back. So my question could have that spark damaged something in my car?

If the battery is totally disconnected, there will be a small spark for some milliseconds when reconnecting it, that's normal. This spark shouldn't cause any harm.

However, nobody said you should disconnect the battery. The idea was to connect the jump starter cable to the negative pole, leaving everything else in place.

Also, don't leave ignition on whilst disconnecting your battery or playing around with the jumper cable (unstable connection). This might cause damage.

Luckily, looks like your car doesn't have start-stop. Start-stop cars have AGM batteries and a voltage regulator connected to the negative terminal (it's not the voltage regulator of the alternator, it's a special regulator for start-stop). These special voltage regulators need to be treated very carefully.

Did the engine finally crank or not?

If not, with ignition off, reconnect the negative terminal of the battery with the car's negative clamp using battery clamp grease on the battery terminal (a special type of conductive gel which will prevent corrosion of the terminal and help increase conductivity) and add the jumper cable as a second connection between battery negative and engine block. Crank it again.

You could also clean the positive terminal and apply some battery clamp grease to it.

Hope this helps.

 

[JohnyCash]

If the battery is totally disconnected, there will be a small spark for some milliseconds when reconnecting it, that's normal. This spark shouldn't cause any harm.

However, nobody said you should disconnect the battery. The idea was to connect the jump starter cable to the negative pole, leaving everything else in place.

Also, don't leave ignition on whilst disconnecting your battery or playing around with the jumper cable (unstable connection). This might cause damage.

Luckily, looks like your car doesn't have start-stop. Start-stop cars have AGM batteries and a voltage regulator connected to the negative terminal (it's not the voltage regulator of the alternator, it's a special regulator for start-stop). These special voltage regulators need to be treated very carefully.

Did the engine finally crank or not?

If not, with ignition off, reconnect the negative terminal of the battery with the car's negative clamp using battery clamp grease on the battery terminal (a special type of conductive gel which will prevent corrosion of the terminal and help increase conductivity) and add the jumper cable as a second connection between battery negative and engine block. Crank it again.

You could also clean the positive terminal and apply some battery clamp grease to it.

Hope this helps.

Okay i just tried your suggestion where to clamp the negative jump cable on top of the existing one and the other end was hooked on the engine bay. But still the same thing no cranking at all. Please see the video of how i hooked up things. I have also gotten a multi meter from another friend to triple check the battery at this point and the reading was 12.46v is that enough to start the car?
Thanks Zardo

 

[Zardo]

Okay i just tried your suggestion where to clamp the negative jump cable on top of the existing one and the other end was hooked on the engine bay. But still the same thing no cranking at all. Please see the video of how i hooked up things. I have also gotten a multi meter from another friend to triple check the battery at this point and the reading was 12.46v is that enough to start the car?
Thanks Zardo

This means there must be some other fault. Maybe it's the starter motor, after all.

1. Intermittently faulty starter motor (carbon brushes at the end of life?)
2. Faulty starter motor relay
3. Faulty ignition switch
4. Faulty wiring harness between all of the above

and maybe faulty clutch switch, if in your model not pressing the clutch with a gear engaged results in the ECU preventing the starter motor to activate.

 

[JohnyCash]

This means there must be some other fault. Maybe it's the starter motor, after all.



and maybe faulty clutch switch, if in your model not pressing the clutch with a gear engaged results in the ECU preventing the starter motor to activate.

When i turn on the the ignition I can hear this faint buzzing noise coming for a bit and then stops. I was in the car with a friend of mine once and he said that it was the starter motor and i assumed its fine. He also said this actually rules out the starter motor being the problem. One question how can i possibly check with the multi meter if the negative is causing the problem?

 

[Zardo]

Ok maybe you should focus on the starter motor. It needs to engage, not only "buzz".

5 ways your starter motor can fail

 

[Bartoosh]

Goodness me, JC, never disconnect/reconnect battery cables with the ignition actuated, that's asking for trouble. As Zardo pointed out, the black jump lead between negative battery terminal and engine is in addition to the existing connections, not a replacement for the battery cable. The rationale behind this test is to determine whether the main earth cable is faulty. As you got the same result even with the jump lead attached, you can rule out this possibility and turn your attention the next item on Zardo's list.

If it were me I'd be checking the starter motor relay next (in fact, I'd be checking all relays and fuses to begin with). You can either test with your multimeter or swap with a known IDENTICAL working relay to see if it makes a difference. The key word here is IDENTICAL; don't go swapping relays of different type. I've attached the fuse box diagram. R11 is the Starter Motor Relay. R9 is the Front Electric Window Relay. If your front electric windows are working, then you can temporarily swap R11 with R9 and re-test. If after swapping these two relays around your front electric windows suddenly don't work but the car cranks then you know that the relay is faulty. If your windows continue to work but the car still won't crank then the relay isn't to blame.

 

[Zardo]

The faint buzzing noise when turning ignition on, but not trying to crank it, is likely the fuel pump or some actuator of your climatisation moving, if this car has climatisation.

If you hear that noise only when trying to crank the car, it likely is the starter motor or a faulty relais.

Starting with checking wires for damage and testing relais is less costly than changing the starter motor.

 

[varesecrazy]

Okay i just tried your suggestion where to clamp the negative jump cable on top of the existing one and the other end was hooked on the engine bay. But still the same thing no cranking at all. Please see the video of how i hooked up things. I have also gotten a multi meter from another friend to triple check the battery at this point and the reading was 12.46v is that enough to start the car?
Thanks Zardo

Where are you based..?

This may be something obvious to somebody familiar with a modern FIAT

 

[JohnyCash]

Where are you based..?

This may be something obvious to somebody familiar with a modern FIAT

Hi so i have confirmed the first point they earth goes to starter i think is fine checked the voltage down there and its matching the reading from the battery. Which is 12.46 so really wondering if its the starter motor failing. To your question @varesecrazy I am based in UK.

 

[Zardo]

Hi so i have confirmed the first point they earth goes to starter i think is fine checked the voltage down there and its matching the reading from the battery. Which is 12.46 so really wondering if its the starter motor failing.

Yes, looks like the starter is connected to ground. You could also check (if you have access) if the starter gets positive voltage once the ignition key is turned to crank it, on the positive connection of the starter (you would probably need a helper).