General Panda 1.2 to Italy

[babbo_umbro]

It might be of interest to some forum members to read a summary of our recent journey from Devon to Umbria is Mrs b_u's 1.2 Panda; bought new in January 2011 to replace the MJ written off in the ice and snow on the edge of Dartmoor. Mileage at start of trip 12,945.

Okehampton; 7.30 5/9/2012; 0 miles.
Leatherhead; 10.55; 191 miles; included fuel stop.
Maidstone; 11.28; 41 miles.
Channel Tunnel; 11.55; 32 miles; caught 12.50 shuttle.
Exited tunnel 14.30 (European time).
Lille; 15.34; 74 miles.
Stopped Tour du Lys, Maubeuge; 16.29; 57 miles.
Started 8.02 6/9/2012.
Namur; 9.15; 65 miles cross country to avoid rush hour round Mons.
Luxembourg; 10.37; 93 miles.
Epinal; 12.36; 111 miles, including stop for cheap petrol, pee and coffee in Luxembourg.
Basel; 14.57; 85 miles mostly on single carriageway road with low speed limit; including stop for wonderful pastries in favourite patisserie and stop to consume them on Ballon d'Alsace.
Airolo; 17.16, 114 miles including San Gottardo tunnel.
Stop Ronco Bedretto; 17.30; 13 miles up narrow river valley.
Started 8.45 7/9/2012.
Mendrisio; 9.49; 70 miles.
Milano; 10.38; 40 miles including stop for cheapish petrol in last Swiss petrol station at Coldrerio; 4.70 euros tolls round Milano; join A1.
Parma; 11.38; 75 miles.
Bologna; 12.49; 56 miles including major hold up for nasty looking accident involving caravan.
Firenze; 13.40; 55 miles over mountains in heavy traffic.
Val di Chiana; 15.17; 63 miles including lunch stop, leave A1, toll from Milano 26.30 euros.
Perugia; 15.56; 38 miles.
Spoleto; 16.30; 36 miles.
Valdarena (and home); 16.45; 7 miles including 1 mile of white road.

The Panda averaged about 52 mpg overall with two adults and a reasonable amount of luggage but nothing heavy, ranging from 57 mpg on Epinal to Basel stretch, to 48 mpg while trying to make up time on the A1 and in the heavy traffic between Bologna and Firenze. The road from Epinal has gained some dual carriageway over the years but it has also gained numerous speed cameras and stretches that used to allow 130 kph have now all been reduced to 110; the Route National 66 bit is picturesque along the Moselle valley but very slow. Hotel costs in Switzerland have reached the point where we're considering changing our route to avoid it and come into Italy near Genoa; a reasonable but not exceptional meal for two in a comfortable small hotel costs over 120 pounds with a bottle of wine.

 

[Punto MC]

Hi from a newbie, you've done this trip before in the 100HP haven't you. How does this Panda compare to it for refinement? Is there much difference between a standard Panda and the 100HP?

 

[babbo_umbro]

Hi from a newbie, you've done this trip before in the 100HP haven't you. How does this Panda compare to it for refinement? Is there much difference between a standard Panda and the 100HP?

Yes - we do the trip twice a year and normally do it once in my car - the 100HP - and once in Mrs b_u's, which is one of the last Euro 4 1.2s. The 100HP's extra grunt is obviously very useful on a trip like this, though I remarked on the way down here that the increasing coverage of speed cameras in some parts of France are eating into that advantage. On two lane dual carriageways with the usual heavy lorry traffic that you get on the non-toll roads you used to be able to use acceleration to ease evolving traffic situations - approaching a hill, say, with one lorry doing 100kph and the other doing 110 and about to overtake for the next mile and a half, in the past you'd just slip the 100HP into fourth and nip past, exceeding the speed limit for a few hundred yards, of course. Now, you think twice about doing that, although ALMOST all the enforcement cameras have a warning sign 200-400 yards ahead you can't rely on it. We were caught by a camera - while I was driving - near Pont à Mousson, doing about 120 kph instead of 110 as the speed had just crept up. Have to see if there are any nasty surprises when we get back to Devon.

The 100HP's seats are slightly more comfortable than the 1.2s. The 100HP also has climate control as standard and, though the 1.2 has air con, the ability to just set the temperature and let the system do its job is a plus on the 100HP. Having the air con working quite hard in very hot conditions seems to make no discernible difference to performance or consumption on the 100HP and very little on the 1.2.

The 1.2 is quite happy at 85 mph or so but not really at any higher speed, that's just under 3500 rpm in fifth, so the comparatively high gearing is good for mpg and quite relaxed; the 100HP's doing 4000 rpm at that speed in sixth so sounds a bit busier, though no noisier as the 1.2 doesn't have the under-bonnet sound proofing of the 100HP. Some of the roads in Belgium, in particular, are very rough and the 100HP's ride can become a bit of a bore on those; conversely, on the crossing of the Appenines between Bologna and Firenze, there are numerous sharpish bends and two comparatively narrow lanes with a constant stream of lorries, the 100HP's better body control - mine has Konis on the back - mean that you certainly feel the joins between the concrete sections but you never worry that the wallowing is going to be too drastic, even if you're pushing - 80-90 mph. In the event of dramas, the 100HP's all-round discs are a great comfort.

We're both in our mid-sixties so not so keen on blasting across Europe as we used to be but I'd say that both cars can put 500 miles or more into a reasonable day - starting and finishing at a civilised hour - without you feeling drained at the end of it. Despite recent discussion elsewhere on the forum, the 100HP's extra performance and general sharper handling are enough to mean that you can just let the car do what you need, while the 1.2 is sometimes lacking, though that's not too serious a criticism of what is a small car after all.

The 1.2 gives about 52 mpg as I said, while the 100HP gives just under 40, which corresponds exactly with the effect of the higher capacity and lower gearing of the latter. On sections where you can push on and the 100HP's doing 35mpg you do have to fill up depressingly frequently.

 

[Punto MC]

Excellent post Babbo! (can i call you Babbo? lol)

Really interesting read.

Can't imagine i'll be driving long distances, maybe once a year to the Lakes but otherwise probably my commute.

Very good comparison though, thanks

Also, very sorry to hear about the written off MJ

 

[Jerseywurzel]

It`s nice to hear the 1.2 is happy going at 85mph.

For the 1st time since getting my car, I`ll be going over 40 mph (the speed limit on the Island). I`m driving down to Les Sables D`oloone, in the Vendee. I was wondering how it would cope, though I have done the trip before in my Seicento.

So thanks for an informative post

 

[babbo_umbro]

Just returned to Pudding Island in the 1.2 - the change in climate can best be called interesting.

A brief update on how the Panda went. Total mileage for the trip was 2586; petrol consumption was as near as damnit 50mpg. I topped up the oil to the "full" mark in Italy and back here and the total for the whole mileage was 3/4 of a litre - not bad as the weather was mostly hot and a lot of the miles were covered at 80+ mph. Air con was on a good deal of the time - cooling in Italy and demisting back here. Petrol prices per litre in pounds - Italy 1.50 (!!); France 1.26; Switzerland 1.36; Luxembourg 1.14; didn't note diesel prices, I'm afraid but I think they're about ten percent less than petrol except in Switzerland, where diesel costs more than petrol.

On the whole the 1.2 acquitted itself well. Coming back we had about 50 kilos of additional load - wine and olive oil - and I was surprised how much difference this relatively small increase in weight made to the car's performance; I'm much more used to the 100HP but the 1.2 felt not too desperately under-powered on the way south - two decent-sized adults and 50 kilos or so of luggage - but on the way back it felt a lot slower, specially when the tank was full, with more use of fourth gear on steep main road climbs, in Switzerland in particular, and some overtaking of lorries and caravans needing planning ahead, especially on two carriageway autoroutes in France and Belgium.

 

[babbo_umbro]

Useful tip when at toll gates on Italian autostrade - there are often long queues at the pay by cash booths at an "Alt Stazione" but very few vehicles waiting at the Carte lanes - ignore the Puntoblu unless you have an account set up but paying with a debit card is very quick and painless - charged at the current exchange rate and you don't even have to put in your PIN - so much easier if you're driving on your own and have to lean over to the nearside of the car.

 

[ivantate]

The Italians misstrust of using plastic working in our favour!! I dont understand why more people dont use them.

Always good to see your trips as its something I do occasionally too.

We are leaving on Thursday and taking the Idea this time. I hope it uses less fuel than the Panda 100!! It does seem to generally but with alot more space to fill up with the family paraphanalia it will probably weigh the same as a Croma.

Hull-Zeebrugge ferry then across to Basel for an overnight stop. Basel to Turin via Milan. (avoiding Monte Bianco tunnel cost and queue)

If you have the address of that Patisserie it could be handy for breakfast...... .

 

[babbo_umbro]

The Italians misstrust of using plastic working in our favour!! I dont understand why more people dont use them.

Always good to see your trips as its something I do occasionally too.

We are leaving on Thursday and taking the Idea this time. I hope it uses less fuel than the Panda 100!! It does seem to generally but with alot more space to fill up with the family paraphanalia it will probably weigh the same as a Croma.

Hull-Zeebrugge ferry then across to Basel for an overnight stop. Basel to Turin via Milan. (avoiding Monte Bianco tunnel cost and queue)

If you have the address of that Patisserie it could be handy for breakfast...... .

I didn't know the address but, amazingly enough, I've found it via Google
Les Délices De Clémence, 30 Rue Alsace, 88160 Ramonchamp - if you want I could take you straight to it if there's a spare seat. It's on R66/E512 as you travel south east between Remiremont and Thann (where the Fiat dealer used to have interesting Fiats in the showroom including a Topolino at one time - haven't spotted it recently) alongside the newly-born Moselle. The patisserie itself is on the right of the road between Ferdrupt and Le Thillot - you can pull off in front of it and there's a useful lay-by opposite for the return trip. Closed on Wednesday.

If you know of a good value stopping-off hotel between Basel and the San Gottardo tunnel, let me know as Swiss hotels and restaurants have become ridiculously expensive for what you get - particularly if you're on the way back from Italy.

Buon viaggio.

 

[306maxi]

Always like reading your trip posts babbo_Umbro Have enjoyed the two trips we've done in our 500

 

[Matthen]

1.2 is probably in a similar place to the 1.1 at 85... pulls hard, cause its sitting in its power band, but drinks like a fish

The only probably id have with like is the road noise, really drives me mad in the panda

Also, French speed cameras? What about them? You wont hear back about it... (not that I condone speeding) - its the police you've got to watch for, because they can fine you on the spot.

 

[babbo_umbro]

1.2 is probably in a similar place to the 1.1 at 85... pulls hard, cause its sitting in its power band, but drinks like a fish

The only probably id have with like is the road noise, really drives me mad in the panda

Also, French speed cameras? What about them? You wont hear back about it... (not that I condone speeding) - its the police you've got to watch for, because they can fine you on the spot.

The 1.2 wasn't too thirsty really - in rough terms, a Panda MJ, the 1.2's predecessor, averaged 60mpg, the 1.2 does 50 and the 100HP does 40. It was noticeable how much thirstier it was on the way back, even with relatively little extra load. A recent detailed assessment of carbon footprints showed that a thirsty SUV with four people on board was more ecologically sound than any other form of transport - so a small car with 2 aboard must be even better - followed by a full aeroplane with tourist class seating, then train, then coach.

Some of the Belgian surfaces are really loud, and there are some surfaces in Italy of tarmac with enhanced drainage, that are also very noisy. Might be worth a few kilos of sound-proofing on wheelarches and boot floor.

I'm no longer confident that you won't hear repercussions from a speed camera "catch" in France - there are reports - which may only be of the "my mate's next door neighbour's brother-in-law" variety - that incidents of speeding with attached fixed penalty have been passed on from France to UK. I'd like to hear more before I'm totally reassured. Like you, I don't condone tearing round someone else's country like a girl who's just left convent school, but many of the French cameras are even more absurdly sited from a safety angle than those over here. There's a dual carriageway near Pont-à-Mousson, not far south of Luxembourg, three lanes, with a limit that varies umpteen times from 70 to 90 to 110 kph and back again for no obvious reason other than revenue collection. The result is hopelessly bunched-up traffic all doing precisely the speed limit, with drivers totally switched off and taking no notice of the road or traffic conditions.

Some years back I was fined and pointed for doing 58 in what was then a 50 zone on the A303 in Somerset - clear visibility, wide road, no hazards, just a limit for the sake of it. I wrote to that effect, with no result obviously, but I notice that the 50 zone was removed not long after and it's a normal 60 zone. There are several places on the 303 where you're restricted to 50 on the main road and little narrow lanes turn off that have a de-restriction sign on them.

 

[AB100]

Must confess I've always chosen to go reasonably swiftly as any 1200cc small hire car can go on empty Spanish motorways. No issues until 2009. Then 5 months after the holiday I got two tickets for doing not much over the 110kmh limit on the same road, 2 days apart.

The tickets were bilingual - Spanish and Catalan. I was supposed to sign for them but my postie's Spanish wasn't up to spotting that.

Anyway - I did the staunch English thing: harrumph and ignore. How dare they, when my taxes gave them all those billiard smooth roads etc

Never heard anything else. But like Mr Umbro, I fear the times are a changing.

Funny how they've not updated cameras everywhere to read numberplates and report untested cars and uninsured cars. Just speeding - no revenue in the other two.

I shall now stand down from the sopabox and let someone else have a go.

 

[[email protected]]

nice to hear that the "little" 1.2 did so well on a long journey, I had a 100 hp which was very competent, now have a 1.2 eleganza, which, whilst it doesn't have the same urge , is just so much more comfortable...
John B

 

[Matthen]

The 1.2 wasn't too thirsty really - in rough terms, a Panda MJ, the 1.2's predecessor, averaged 60mpg, the 1.2 does 50 and the 100HP does 40. It was noticeable how much thirstier it was on the way back, even with relatively little extra load. A recent detailed assessment of carbon footprints showed that a thirsty SUV with four people on board was more ecologically sound than any other form of transport - so a small car with 2 aboard must be even better - followed by a full aeroplane with tourist class seating, then train, then coach.

Some of the Belgian surfaces are really loud, and there are some surfaces in Italy of tarmac with enhanced drainage, that are also very noisy. Might be worth a few kilos of sound-proofing on wheelarches and boot floor.

I'm no longer confident that you won't hear repercussions from a speed camera "catch" in France - there are reports - which may only be of the "my mate's next door neighbour's brother-in-law" variety - that incidents of speeding with attached fixed penalty have been passed on from France to UK. I'd like to hear more before I'm totally reassured. Like you, I don't condone tearing round someone else's country like a girl who's just left convent school, but many of the French cameras are even more absurdly sited from a safety angle than those over here. There's a dual carriageway near Pont-à-Mousson, not far south of Luxembourg, three lanes, with a limit that varies umpteen times from 70 to 90 to 110 kph and back again for no obvious reason other than revenue collection. The result is hopelessly bunched-up traffic all doing precisely the speed limit, with drivers totally switched off and taking no notice of the road or traffic conditions.

Some years back I was fined and pointed for doing 58 in what was then a 50 zone on the A303 in Somerset - clear visibility, wide road, no hazards, just a limit for the sake of it. I wrote to that effect, with no result obviously, but I notice that the 50 zone was removed not long after and it's a normal 60 zone. There are several places on the 303 where you're restricted to 50 on the main road and little narrow lanes turn off that have a de-restriction sign on them.

Only had >50 mpg out of the 1.1 once, and that was driving like miss daisy, sitting between 55 and 65 - on the A303 funnily enough - average about 44 normally.

I know the A303 reasonably well, driven down the first 50 miles (Westbound from the M3) of it a fair few times, and i've driven the length of it a couple of times..

Lovely road, ruined by the speed limits

 

[homeward]

I know the A303 reasonably well, driven down the first 50 miles (Westbound from the M3) of it a fair few times, and i've driven the length of it a couple of times..

Lovely road, ruined by the speed limits

Used to live just just outside Salisbury: so also know it well... -- although, to me, it's ruined by roundabouts...!

You might like this book...! The BBC TV programme to go with it was also pretty good...!

Apologies to babbo_umbro for taking this off-topic....

 

[Matthen]

Used to live just just outside Salisbury: so also know it well... -- although, to me, it's ruined by roundabouts...!

You might like this book...! The BBC TV programme to go with it was also pretty good...!

Apologies to @babbo_umbro for taking this off-topic....

Cheers - Might take a look at that over Christmas, sorry its taken so long to respond, i've been horrendously busy over November... Looks like a good read.

The roundabouts were OK, only two between the M3 and Mere bypass, until they put traffic lights on the Countess Services one.. now that, is a joke.

 

[Batfalcon]

Excellent narration babbo_umbro
I do have a BIG question mark over my head though.

Your 1,2 gave an average of 50 mpg. I suppose that it's the front wheel drive right?
Mine is the 4X4 and I can't even imagine such mileage!!!
Mine is 35.5 mpg on the highway and 33 in the city. . Not forgetting the fact that 85 mph is near the top speed of the 4X4. I have 120 kph at 4000 rpm.

Is this normal????

 

[babbo_umbro]

4x4 is lower geared, less aerodynamic because of extra height, and significantly heavier, plus there are some losses in the transmission, even when it's only working in front wheel drive - so it's not surprising that the 4x4 uses a lot more petrol. Also, mpg is noticeably better when the weather's hotter.

 

[306maxi]

what babbo_Umbro said I can get 50mpg out of my 500 all day but 40 mpg out of the Panda is a struggle.