Is it a 4x4
Technical Sluggish Panda 1.2 Euro 5
- Thread starter Martijn169
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Technical Sluggish Panda 1.2 Euro 5
Martijn169
New member
Not that I am aware of.... 
It is a bone standard 1.2 Active except for the airco and maybe the power windows.
What makes you tink that it is a 4x4?
And what is your opinion of my hypothesis about the failing self-test, the check engine light and the power limitation because of emergency mode?
It is a bone standard 1.2 Active except for the airco and maybe the power windows.
What makes you tink that it is a 4x4?
And what is your opinion of my hypothesis about the failing self-test, the check engine light and the power limitation because of emergency mode?
Not the usual dash here in the UK
Only seen them fitted to the 4x4
Only seen them fitted to the 4x4
What's the fiat part number on the ECU if it's visible
Martijn169
New member
Below a picture of the ECU typeplate.
Today I had the opportunity to do some diagnostics and I noticed something remarkable that got me thinking.
The throttle body was not sending any information to the ECU about the relative opening of the butterfly valve.
This could mean that the throttle body is defective but in my opinion that is not so likely because apart from the lack of top end power the car drives just fine. Besides that I was told that these throttle bodies seldomly fail.
Therefor I have (yet another) hypothesis: in the past the throttle body has been disconnected from the ECU without disconnecting the battery. If the throttle body has not been learned or calibrated after that, the ECU knows that the information coming from the throttle body is not validated. Therefor the ECU switches over to an emergency mode in which the car can drive but is protected against possible damage due to potentially incorrect throttle control. This protection means that the opening of the butterfly valve is limited to a value that is safe in any situation. This would explain the lack of power and it would also explain why the engine will not revv above 5000 rpm when unloaded. And it would possibly also explain why the check engine light will not come on at start up because it is failing a self-test.
To find out whether this hypothesis is correct I have disconnected the negative lead of the battery. Tomorrow I will connect it again and after that I will learn / calibrate the throttle body as per the instruction I found on this forum (ignition on for 60 seconds and then off for 10 seconds). As a backup I have the possibility to have the throttle body learned / calibrated using a diagnostic tool. Just to make sure that it either solves the problem or to rule out this possible cause.
As always I will keep you posted!
Today I had the opportunity to do some diagnostics and I noticed something remarkable that got me thinking.
The throttle body was not sending any information to the ECU about the relative opening of the butterfly valve.
This could mean that the throttle body is defective but in my opinion that is not so likely because apart from the lack of top end power the car drives just fine. Besides that I was told that these throttle bodies seldomly fail.
Therefor I have (yet another) hypothesis: in the past the throttle body has been disconnected from the ECU without disconnecting the battery. If the throttle body has not been learned or calibrated after that, the ECU knows that the information coming from the throttle body is not validated. Therefor the ECU switches over to an emergency mode in which the car can drive but is protected against possible damage due to potentially incorrect throttle control. This protection means that the opening of the butterfly valve is limited to a value that is safe in any situation. This would explain the lack of power and it would also explain why the engine will not revv above 5000 rpm when unloaded. And it would possibly also explain why the check engine light will not come on at start up because it is failing a self-test.
To find out whether this hypothesis is correct I have disconnected the negative lead of the battery. Tomorrow I will connect it again and after that I will learn / calibrate the throttle body as per the instruction I found on this forum (ignition on for 60 seconds and then off for 10 seconds). As a backup I have the possibility to have the throttle body learned / calibrated using a diagnostic tool. Just to make sure that it either solves the problem or to rule out this possible cause.
As always I will keep you posted!
Disconnecting the battery for any length of time hasn't work since the 80s
Adaptive parameters are stored none volatile memory
The buttery doesn't have to open much to raise the revs to the limit in neutral (no load)
Adaptive parameters are stored none volatile memory
The buttery doesn't have to open much to raise the revs to the limit in neutral (no load)
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Having a scan tool helps
Is it bidirectional, can you switch the check light on and off
With the MAP disconnected is there any error code
Is it bidirectional, can you switch the check light on and off
With the MAP disconnected is there any error code
Martijn169
New member
Another day with new opportunities...
Today I had the thrittle body learned in and calibrated using a scan tool: did not solve the issue. So we can rule out the throttle body.
I have asked for stored fault codes. Maybe they will point me in the correct direction.
I also removed the O2 sensor sitting before the cat: did not solve the issue. So we can rule out a blockage of the exhaust system.
I assume fuel delivery can not be the issue as the unloaded engine speed is also limited to 5000 rpm. On the motorway I can still do 110 km/hour although it takes some time to get there. My guess would be that the fuel consumption in that condition is much higher than unloaded revving.
The mechanic I visited today suggested the coil pack as a possible cause. Does this sound plausible? It would only make sense to swap it for a new one and although they won't break the bank they are also not particularly cheap.
As we entered the stage of swapoing components I need to be sensible to prevent this from getting out of hand. On the other hand: the issue needs to get solved!
Today I had the thrittle body learned in and calibrated using a scan tool: did not solve the issue. So we can rule out the throttle body.
I have asked for stored fault codes. Maybe they will point me in the correct direction.
I also removed the O2 sensor sitting before the cat: did not solve the issue. So we can rule out a blockage of the exhaust system.
I assume fuel delivery can not be the issue as the unloaded engine speed is also limited to 5000 rpm. On the motorway I can still do 110 km/hour although it takes some time to get there. My guess would be that the fuel consumption in that condition is much higher than unloaded revving.
The mechanic I visited today suggested the coil pack as a possible cause. Does this sound plausible? It would only make sense to swap it for a new one and although they won't break the bank they are also not particularly cheap.
As we entered the stage of swapoing components I need to be sensible to prevent this from getting out of hand. On the other hand: the issue needs to get solved!
No engine check light
Are you getting an error code from the ECU with the MAP disconected
Are you getting an error code from the ECU with the MAP disconected
Martijn169
New member
Another potential cause that I did not yet check is the valve timing. Is it plausible that that is off?
Martijn169
New member
I did not check as I was not present during the session.
The check engine light never lights. Also not at startup.
Can we just just find out now so we can move on
Martijn169
New member
I don't have a scan tool, so unfortunately I can not find out now.
What are you looking for by doing this?
For engine codes you only need something very basic
A £5 elm327 and an android phone works, some iPhones don't use standard Bluetooth so need a slightly different dongle but still under £10
Some more options here, stand alone are the easiest to use ,just plug in and use, useful to have live data, which start at around £15
Some options here
www.fiatforum.com
Here's a £5 Bluetooth elm being used by me
www.fiatforum.com
A £5 elm327 and an android phone works, some iPhones don't use standard Bluetooth so need a slightly different dongle but still under £10
Some more options here, stand alone are the easiest to use ,just plug in and use, useful to have live data, which start at around £15
Some options here
Cheap Scanners Known to Work | FIAT Panda (Mk3)
I see a few people asking about engine check light I thread with readers known to work might help others I see someone has had success with a C reader 30001 Which also does live data 👍 https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/fiat-diesel-garage-in-the-midlands.496210/ and in 2022 can be had for...
www.fiatforum.com
Here's a £5 Bluetooth elm being used by me
Koalar random thoughts | FIAT Panda (Mk3)
Got the car here for a few day 1.2 petrol 2011 Going to post a few pictures and video of some simple and basic tests My well be a bit random as they pop into my head and might sort them into the proper order later
www.fiatforum.com
Martijn169
New member
I am to obtain an OBDII dongle today and will carry out some tests and investigations. Do you have a suggestion for a good android app to use?
There's shed loads that work fine
play.google.com
play.google.com
Torque lite works really well on older android versions but the free version no longer works on later android versions
Can be tricky to set up but fiat specific
play.google.com
Car Scanner ELM OBD2 - Apps on Google Play
Trip computer+car diagnostic tool with widest variety of features and dashboard!
SDPROG - OBD2 Car Scanner - Apps on Google Play
SDPROG is a modern and intuitive OBD2 car diagnostic program.
Torque lite works really well on older android versions but the free version no longer works on later android versions
Can be tricky to set up but fiat specific
AlfaOBD Demo - Apps on Google Play
Demo version of AlfaOBD software for Fiat Group cars native diagnostic
Martijn169
New member
Yes. When I disconnect the MAP sensor the ECU immediately sets P0105 (MAP sensor circuit malfunction) and P0110 (IAT sensor circuit malfunction).
When I reconnect the MAP sensor the fault codes disappear.
The system however also sets P1220. When I remove it, it immediately returns.
I went out for a drive and monitored both pedal position and throttle position.
At full acceleration (pedal to the metal) the pedal position is ~ 81% and 85% (two sensors for redundancy?)
The throttle position however will not exceed 29% no matter what I do. Which explains the lack of power felt. Unloaded the engine speed does not exceed 5000 rpm and throttle position does not exceed ~23%.
Enclosed a snap shot of the DTC's.
I have already exchanged the throttle body for a used one from the breakers. Do hou agree that it is very inlikely that this other throttle body suffers from the same problem as the original one?
Any thoughts on this?
Attachments
Martijn169
New member
My Panda lives in Eindhoven.
Thanks for your offer. I will keep it in mind.
Do you think MES can specify the problem in more detail?
Please stop just changing things randomly
As I have already explained the throttle does not normally open fully when you floor the throttle, it a fly by wire system it will open just enough to achieve what is request
We don't need to change things until we find the correct part by chance
As I have already explained the throttle does not normally open fully when you floor the throttle, it a fly by wire system it will open just enough to achieve what is request
We don't need to change things until we find the correct part by chance
