Martijn169
New member
Now we have sample size 4
.By the look of it they are all equally bad. I will start by replacing them and take it from there.
Technical Sluggish Panda 1.2 Euro 5
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Technical Sluggish Panda 1.2 Euro 5
Now we have sample size 4
.By the look of it they are all equally bad. I will start by replacing them and take it from there.
Cheers
Here a normal plug changed on time
This one is very thin on the ground electrode
Gap looks over 1mm to me in the photo
Need replacing anyway in my opinion
I wouldn't buy off eBay or Amazon
Here a normal plug changed on time
This one is very thin on the ground electrode
Gap looks over 1mm to me in the photo
Need replacing anyway in my opinion
I wouldn't buy off eBay or Amazon
Martijn169
New member
While I am waiting for the parts to arrive I will continue cleaning up the engine compartment.
As I mentioned in an earlier post I have replaced the smaller hose which runs from the airfilter box to the inlet manifold. Meanwhile I have learned the function of this hose. When I connect this hose to the inlet manifold and suck on it there is no free flowing air. Is there a valve in the inlet manifold controlling the air flow between this connection the airfilter box? Or is it presummable that the connection is clogged?
As I mentioned in an earlier post I have replaced the smaller hose which runs from the airfilter box to the inlet manifold. Meanwhile I have learned the function of this hose. When I connect this hose to the inlet manifold and suck on it there is no free flowing air. Is there a valve in the inlet manifold controlling the air flow between this connection the airfilter box? Or is it presummable that the connection is clogged?
Interesting point
I don't know
I not looked at either of them closely, looked at my old pictures and there isn't one that useful
There's no mention of one on elearn
Need someone that got one lying around to double check maybe @irc has a spare knocking around
Sucking is the wrong direction any change if you try blowing
Martijn169
New member
I have tried blowing as well and I am able to blow air through that hole allbeit not very much.
I have also stuck some into the hole to look for something that might be clogging the hole. I didn't find anything 'soft'. So I pressume that the hole is open as it should be.
I have also stuck some into the hole to look for something that might be clogging the hole. I didn't find anything 'soft'. So I pressume that the hole is open as it should be.
Martijn169
New member
This is a picture from inside the manifold looking into the connection of the smaller crankcase venting hose.
I see what looks like a brass tube with a plastic insert or something. That looks pretty standard to me so I guess this is some sort of tuned suction pipe.
The question I ask myself is why Fiat uses a hose with a relatively large diameter if further downstream there is an obstruction with a potential risk of clogging...
Any other views on this?
I can imagine that if this bore gets clogged all air with oil will po past the throttle valve causing massive contamination.
Yes
Depending on the vacuum inside the inlet manifold depends how the crankcase blow by gasses enter the inlet manifold
I have written many times is important there is no blockages and no vacuum leaks
The spring is present on the airbox and so on
Depending on the vacuum inside the inlet manifold depends how the crankcase blow by gasses enter the inlet manifold
I have written many times is important there is no blockages and no vacuum leaks
The spring is present on the airbox and so on
Martijn169
New member
Today the corurier came by and he had a nice package for me:
The sun was shining, the temperature was good (~22° C) so I started working directly.
The difference between the old en new spark plugs is rather shocking:
As suspected installing the new parts improved the driveability greatly but unfortunately it did not solve the sluggishness issue.
Where I had hoped that the spark plugs would be the cause, they seem to be a symptom at best. So now I guess it's time to call in the specialists with the specialist tools. As I have already planned a remap of the ECU I am planning to combine the two.
At least the stage 0 tuning has been completed, with the exception of the gearbox oil that I am going to replace in a short while. What are the specifications I am looking for, as the Haynes Manual only states Fiat gear oil and the owners manual only states TUTELA CAR ZC 75 SYNTH. In the past I have had good experience with Castrol Syntrans FE 75W (it is called Transmax Manual FE 75W nowadays). Would this be suitable for this box?
Last question: do I need to overfill the gearbox to protect the notorious bearing from failing? And if so, how many cc should it be overfilled with?
I will keep you posted. Any suggestions that I can try in the mean time are still welcome.
The sun was shining, the temperature was good (~22° C) so I started working directly.
The difference between the old en new spark plugs is rather shocking:
As suspected installing the new parts improved the driveability greatly but unfortunately it did not solve the sluggishness issue.
Where I had hoped that the spark plugs would be the cause, they seem to be a symptom at best. So now I guess it's time to call in the specialists with the specialist tools. As I have already planned a remap of the ECU I am planning to combine the two.
At least the stage 0 tuning has been completed, with the exception of the gearbox oil that I am going to replace in a short while. What are the specifications I am looking for, as the Haynes Manual only states Fiat gear oil and the owners manual only states TUTELA CAR ZC 75 SYNTH. In the past I have had good experience with Castrol Syntrans FE 75W (it is called Transmax Manual FE 75W nowadays). Would this be suitable for this box?
Last question: do I need to overfill the gearbox to protect the notorious bearing from failing? And if so, how many cc should it be overfilled with?
I will keep you posted. Any suggestions that I can try in the mean time are still welcome.
Castrol Syntrans FE 75W
Is a GL-4 oil should be a GL-5
Denso is what I fit, they work perfectly
I just fill to the correct level
Has the MAP oiled back up,
Run it for a few miles, the post a photo all the plugs, I suspect there will be some improvement
I'd you accelerate hard, wide open throttle in second, at what revs does it start to struggle
Is a GL-4 oil should be a GL-5
Denso is what I fit, they work perfectly
I just fill to the correct level
Has the MAP oiled back up,
Run it for a few miles, the post a photo all the plugs, I suspect there will be some improvement
I'd you accelerate hard, wide open throttle in second, at what revs does it start to struggle
I don't know about the Netherlands, here in the UK you pay around £150 per hour, with a problem you will be charged at least 2H, it's better to sort it yourself, if you can
remap of the ECU on this engine is a complete waste of money in my opinion, the original map is very good, there will be no noticeable difference unless some head work is done first, I seen some lift the the rev limit by 500 which again is pointless as the engine is already past the power band
Most I have seen back to back on a rolling road is 3 BHP which is within the margin of error, and if genuine should still not be noticeable
remap of the ECU on this engine is a complete waste of money in my opinion, the original map is very good, there will be no noticeable difference unless some head work is done first, I seen some lift the the rev limit by 500 which again is pointless as the engine is already past the power band
Most I have seen back to back on a rolling road is 3 BHP which is within the margin of error, and if genuine should still not be noticeable
Martijn169
New member
I am inclined to believe that the car is sluggish because of very slow driving and driving short distances only for the last couple of years.
Since June 2022 it has only done 10.000 km.
When the engine is warmed up properly and I poot my foot down I have the feeling that it is coming to life a bit more.
Without direct comparison it is hard to say for sure, but I have the feeling that the car accelerates quite good up until approx. 3000 - 3500 rpm. Between 3500 and 4000 rpm it becomes sluggish. After 4000 it feels dead, in every gear.
If the root cause would be a fuel delivery issue (faulty fuel pump with less flow rate), wouldn't it be noticeable under acceleration at lower engine speeds too?
I will take out the MAP tomorrow as well as plug nr. 1 and post some pictures.
Martijn169
New member
I have not been in a shop for quite some time (not meaning that I don't do maintenance, meaning that I do as much maintenance as possible myself
) so I don't know for sure, but I assume that you are not far off with your estimation.The planned remap is not about increasing the maximum power. It is about improving the driveability at partial load conditions. At very light engine loads the car feels a bit binary due to EU regulations. I am expecting that the remap will fix that.
The guy who is offering this remap is very reputable in The Netherlands and he offers a money back guarantuee if not 100% satisfied.
I had something similar done to my previous Volvo V70 and was very happy with it. To me it is worth the try. And as part of the remap he might be willing to read out fault codes as well, so if there is a fault stored at least I know in what direction to look.
Are you sure there's anything wrong with it?
If you can, try driving a different car with the same engine. A direct comparison with another car of the same type will answer this question. Arrange a cheeky test drive, perhaps?
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Has anyone checked the cam timing yet
We have one plug hotter than the others
We have had a MAP covered in oil
We have plug that with a gap of around 2mmm
We have had a split breather pipe
We need to fit the new part for a few mile and the inspect the MAP and inspect the plugs again
Most of the problems will be caused by the plugs not being able to spark properly and the MAP giving incorrect fueling
We have had a MAP covered in oil
We have plug that with a gap of around 2mmm
We have had a split breather pipe
We need to fit the new part for a few mile and the inspect the MAP and inspect the plugs again
Most of the problems will be caused by the plugs not being able to spark properly and the MAP giving incorrect fueling
Euro 5 engines cant be out more than half a tooth without throwing an engine check light
From post 11
Does it rev freely to over 6K
Lots of things cause similar symptoms, which is why it best to find out for yourself instead of paying for someone else's time, they may not hit the correct solution straight away
Yes its a classic symptom of low fuel flow, blocked CAT, blocked air filter, faulty crank sensor and more
Which is why it's best to diagnose the problem instead of throwing parts at it
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How old is the fuel. Maybe recommend putting some octane boost In it or some 99 octane petrol. Your general service will hopefully start giving results soon
As a guide our 2013 69hp 1.2 starts picking up just under 3000 revs and revs cleanly to the rev limiter. From 36000 miles when we got it.It's had oil change every year at about 9000 miles per year and cam belt every 5 years( not using lock tools) we find it runs better at low revs using iridium plugs. It returns about 48 to 60mpg depending on who drives it and what journeys it's used for. It's now on 87000miles and doesn't seem to be having any oil mist issues.
Tim
As a guide our 2013 69hp 1.2 starts picking up just under 3000 revs and revs cleanly to the rev limiter. From 36000 miles when we got it.It's had oil change every year at about 9000 miles per year and cam belt every 5 years( not using lock tools) we find it runs better at low revs using iridium plugs. It returns about 48 to 60mpg depending on who drives it and what journeys it's used for. It's now on 87000miles and doesn't seem to be having any oil mist issues.
Tim
Martijn169
New member
Many thanks to all contributors for thinking along and providing solutions and suggestions!
I think it is time to provide some structure:
Problem description:
The car feels sluggish especially at higher engine speeds. Seems to lack power. Seem to have improved some after basic maintenance and when engine is warm. It also seems to have the need to 'settle' at a certain (higher)n engine speed after which it accelerates further.
When the car accelerates, it accelerates quite smoothly. Besides the sluggishness nothing feels wrong.
What do we know (facts):
- no dashboard warning lights are lid.
- the car starts immediately and without hesitation, hot or cold.
- the fuel consumption is according to expectation: ~53 MPG (equals 5,3 l/100 km) combined spirited driving.
- engine does not rev freely to over 6000 rpm. Last time I checked it revved to approx. 5000 rpm.
- MAP sensor has been cleaned. I still need to check whether is has oiled up again after cleaning. (as this is a pressure sensor how does oil contamination affects its function?)
- VVT solenoid has been cleaned and has been replaced by a second hand (cleaned) one.
- basic maintenance has been performed: engine oil + filter, spark plugs, HT-leads, air cleaner element.
- throttle body has been cleaned.
- no apparent vacuum leaks. The small vacuum hose between air box and throttle body has been replaced.
- the car has been scarcely used the last couple of years.
I have drawn up a matrix of possible causes and root causes and ways to check and solve them. Please feel free to add to the matrix.
I think it is time to provide some structure:
Problem description:
The car feels sluggish especially at higher engine speeds. Seems to lack power. Seem to have improved some after basic maintenance and when engine is warm. It also seems to have the need to 'settle' at a certain (higher)n engine speed after which it accelerates further.
When the car accelerates, it accelerates quite smoothly. Besides the sluggishness nothing feels wrong.
What do we know (facts):
- no dashboard warning lights are lid.
- the car starts immediately and without hesitation, hot or cold.
- the fuel consumption is according to expectation: ~53 MPG (equals 5,3 l/100 km) combined spirited driving.
- engine does not rev freely to over 6000 rpm. Last time I checked it revved to approx. 5000 rpm.
- MAP sensor has been cleaned. I still need to check whether is has oiled up again after cleaning. (as this is a pressure sensor how does oil contamination affects its function?)
- VVT solenoid has been cleaned and has been replaced by a second hand (cleaned) one.
- basic maintenance has been performed: engine oil + filter, spark plugs, HT-leads, air cleaner element.
- throttle body has been cleaned.
- no apparent vacuum leaks. The small vacuum hose between air box and throttle body has been replaced.
- the car has been scarcely used the last couple of years.
I have drawn up a matrix of possible causes and root causes and ways to check and solve them. Please feel free to add to the matrix.
| Possible cause | Possible root cause | How to check | How to solve |
| Fuel delivery problem | Clogged fuel pump | Replace fuel pump | |
| Fuel delivery problem | Clogged fuel filter | Clean or replace fuel filter | |
| Fuel delivery problem | Clogged injectors | Use injector cleaner Clean injectors ultra sonic cleaning Replace injectors | |
| Air supply problem | Clogged air filter element | Visual | Replace air filter element |
| Exhaust gas discharge problem | Clogged catalytic converter | Replace catalytic converter | |
| Exhaust gas discharge problem | Clogged muffler | Visual | Replace muffler |
| Lazy engine | Little use and short distances | Spirited driving |
