Technical Ducato P0401 P0402 P0236 P0238 and limp mode its 2017 Euro 6, EGR changed, What do I check next

[Baz in Kent]

Depending on the run injector 1 or 3 show wide variances, injector 3 mainly overfuelling.
What percentage of the run time do your injector corrections show out of spec?
(To calculate mine I assumed 1.5 secs for each occasion, eg: (OOS = Out of Spec >+/-2)

 

[Fredastaire]

Just thought I ought to add this photo. Whereas I've had fitted a Fiat new LP EGR cooler, this is the one taken off. I used a surgical latex glove over one end, fastened tight with rubber bands then filled it with water/ caustic soda mix.
This dissolves the carbon build up very quickly.
Back flush with garden hose then blast out with compressed air. Dried it out and repeated the process. It's now ready for reboxing ready for next time, I now need to buy a new o ring.
.
On the agenda for another day is to remove and clean out the intercooler, I am aware though that I need to be careful on immersion time as I've experienced caustic dissolving alloy and I'm not sure of the cooling gills material.
Comments anybody?
In fact can anyone describe where to find the locking tabs that retain the intercooler and how do I release them.

 

[Bigruss]

Big updates required from Engine Z. I'll post in consecutive sections to keep the updates logically separated.

After discussion with the New Zealand Fiat Agent, the truck went in for Software updates first, and a forced regeneration. Then if this didn't work, we'd move to DPF examination as per the Service Bulletin.

I was surprised at the number of updates required, but the ECM and TCM were now updated as per the Service Bulletin

 

[Bigruss]

Engine Z ran well after the updated for 4 days, then back into mixed 236, 238, 401 faults in the first 10 minutes after startup..

On the advice of the Service Agent, I went to a Diesel specialist. The pressures they measured across the DPF looked fantastic, which meant the DPF was perfect, or had blown itself to pieces and was free flowing with little resistance. Next stage, open the exhaust and get a camera in. The exhaust bolts were rusty, so cut off and replaced.

I got a call 2.5 hours with bad news: the exhaust outlet is VERY sooty, and the DPF has broken cores. At this stage, I have to be pragmatic - after a year of these faults it seems like good news, as we're making progress.

 

[Bigruss]

Given we have now diagnosed a broken DPF core at a Diesel specialist, I head back over to the Fiat Service Agents. They now have another truck with similar issues, and are interested in resolving that one too, and are invested in getting these truck issues resolved.

The 2nd truck with these issues is 2 weeks out of warranty. On advice of the agent, this truck stops in the nearest town for a DPF examination (its on the road travelling), and what do you know....blown DPF core.

Next stage of my journey, the truck is booked in to examine the back of the engine to confirm exact parts. Whilst the service bulletin focusses on DPF and injector replacement, my injectors are still good, but I ask for LP-EGR, LP-EGR Cooler, and all associated sensors to be replaced while the steering subframe is off and the truck is being serviced. Note that I have already replaced the easy to replace items - HP-EGR, MAP Sensor, and Turbo Actuator valve and piping.

They give me the parts lists to show what we're doing, I review & add one more sensor (5802077637) to the parts list, then direct credit the full amount over to them. This is more money than I've ever spent on servicing a vehicle. Oh well - no spa pool for the family this year... there goes the savings for that. I just want my DPF secured, and have a feeling this might get worse on the world scene before it gets better, and DPFs might get scarce.

Now we wait. 10 weeks lead time for the DPF. Most other parts are in the country.
Then we book it in, and hopefully get this resolved! By getting the agent to do it, rather than someone else, it does cost a little more, but then I feel they have a vested interest as the Fiat agent to get the parts right and get the truck working when I'm spending sooooooo much money. They've also helped with information I'm sharing on this forum, and being helpful to try and help resolve this.

 

[Baz in Kent]

Given we have now diagnosed a broken DPF core at a Diesel specialist, I head back over to the Fiat Service Agents. They now have another truck with similar issues, and are interested in resolving that one too, and are invested in getting these truck issues resolved.

The 2nd truck with these issues is 2 weeks out of warranty. On advice of the agent, this truck stops in the nearest town for a DPF examination (its on the road travelling), and what do you know....blown DPF core.

Next stage of my journey, the truck is booked in to examine the back of the engine to confirm exact parts. Whilst the service bulletin focusses on DPF and injector replacement, my injectors are still good, but I ask for LP-EGR, LP-EGR Cooler, and all associated sensors to be replaced while the steering subframe is off and the truck is being serviced. Note that I have already replaced the easy to replace items - HP-EGR, MAP Sensor, and Turbo Actuator valve and piping.

They give me the parts lists to show what we're doing, I review & add one more sensor (5802077637) to the parts list, then direct credit the full amount over to them. This is more money than I've ever spent on servicing a vehicle. Oh well - no spa pool for the family this year... there goes the savings for that. I just want my DPF secured, and have a feeling this might get worse on the world scene before it gets better, and DPFs might get scarce.

Now we wait. 10 weeks lead time for the DPF. Most other parts are in the country.
Then we book it in, and hopefully get this resolved! By getting the agent to do it, rather than someone else, it does cost a little more, but then I feel they have a vested interest as the Fiat agent to get the parts right and get the truck working when I'm spending sooooooo much money. They've also helped with information I'm sharing on this forum, and being helpful to try and help resolve this.

Thanks for your detailed “reports”.
Having had my EGR valves, cooler, DPF and injectors all replaced (service bulletin) I’m monitoring my engine with MES and all seems ok other than injector correction values occasionally outside the specified +/-2, what I don’t know is whether this is acceptable or indicative of a likely problem in the future - I’m keen to get confirmation but haven‘t had any luck. I have a number of .csv files the worst of which shows injectors out of spec for around 10% of the time on a run.
I have my old DPF if anyone’s interested in it, it may be perfectly usable or it may be broken - I really don’t know - perhaps someone would like one to take apart? As mentioned they may become in short supply and they’re definitely not cheap but I’m prepared to donate it for the benefit of science! The trade-off would be helping me understand the complexities of injector correction values.

 

[Fredastaire]

Wow that's some list of parts.
I always thought that the twin EGR engines were 2016 2017 2018 model years. Yet yours shows as 2014. Am I correct?
You've listed another sensor ...,.637 may I ask which this is?

 

[Fredastaire]

@Baz in Kent , I'll take you up on the dpf, I'll take it and have it professionally cleaned so we can then view inside and see if its actually cracked or burnt.

 

[Baz in Kent]

@Baz in Kent , I'll take you up on the dpf, I'll take it and have it professionally cleaned so we can then view inside and see if its actually cracked or burnt.

Shame I took it back home to Folkestone from Nottingham Geoff! Let me know how you want to arrange it.

 

[Fredastaire]

Shame I took it back home to Folkestone from Nottingham Geoff! Let me know how you want to arrange it.

Email sent just now, thanks

 

[Bigruss]

Wow that's some list of parts.
I always thought that the twin EGR engines were 2016 2017 2018 model years. Yet yours shows as 2014. Am I correct?
You've listed another sensor ...,.637 may I ask which this is?

The truck is a 2017 model. The 2014 date on the one report which lists a 2014 date will be to do with how the interfacing software interacts with the truck's electronic modules. Its either a setting in their machine, or its talking to a specific chipset manufacture in 2014, but installed in a 2017 truck.

The additional sensor I asked to be replaced - 5802077637 - is an "Exhaust temperature sensor Fiat Ducato since 2014 2.3 JTD". This is a precautionary replacement at my request, simply because it is in the general area of the problem parts, and likely to be covered by soot. It was not specified for replacement by either the Fiat Service bulletin, or the Fiat Agent. I plan to get all the replaced parts back to photograph for this forum, so we can assess how dirty it is once removed.

 

[Fredastaire]

@Bigruss I wonder if I can ask you to get your Fiat dealer to allow you access to the new parts before installing? I've just had my cooler changed to a new one of identical part number. YET I'm told by my Fiat dealer that the cooler has changed part number. I further now think that it comes as a kit of parts including new LP EGR.
.
That has set me thinking, is the new replacement different? In particular does it still have the tea strainer gauze? Maybe they have deleted it of changed to a larger mesh?
.
When my van was at the garage part dismantled I checked with my dealer but he had no stock of the newer replacement, another dealer also had no stock.
.
So there is my question, does it still have the tea strainer gauze?

 

[Baz in Kent]

The truck is a 2017 model. The 2014 date on the one report which lists a 2014 date will be to do with how the interfacing software interacts with the truck's electronic modules. Its either a setting in their machine, or its talking to a specific chipset manufacture in 2014, but installed in a 2017 truck.

The additional sensor I asked to be replaced - 5802077637 - is an "Exhaust temperature sensor Fiat Ducato since 2014 2.3 JTD". This is a precautionary replacement at my request, simply because it is in the general area of the problem parts, and likely to be covered by soot. It was not specified for replacement by either the Fiat Service bulletin, or the Fiat Agent. I plan to get all the replaced parts back to photograph for this forum, so we can assess how dirty it is once removed.

My 2017 model also shows as 2014, thanks for explaining why.

With many of us pulling data in MES .csv files I would find it helpful to have access to as many as possible, what I'd be keen to see is injector correction values in particular. With this in mind I'm suggesting a separate thread purely as a repository which I'll set up if enough agree, I have quite a few to start it off.

Also I still have my DPF, Intercooler and HP EGR if anyone wants them, they're near Folkestone, Kent (UK).

Cheers.

 

[Fredastaire]

@ClareJ please join us here with your Ducato airflow problem.
Please go on line to Gendan UK , I think you put your registration in and it leads you to the Multiecuscan product, it's the package with two leads ,( one is an additional adaptor), including the 1 year license fee, it will come to circa £100.00.

 

[Masztiff]

Hello
Good News.Im go to Professional Ecu Tuner and he make egr off and ecu tune.The Tune was amazing and the p401 error code didnt come 2000 km ago.The air intake every time bigger then measured air intake so didnt come up the error code. Low egr temp still 40-50 celsius same as before off the egr.The 1 and 4 injector corrections out of spec and the voltage 48-49 volt.Mes write these values good.between 50-90 volt.New injectors so i didnt know why out of spec my 2 injectots.

 

[Baz in Kent]

Hello
Good News.Im go to Professional Ecu Tuner and he make egr off and ecu tune.The Tune was amazing and the p401 error code didnt come 2000 km ago.The air intake every time bigger then measured air intake so didnt come up the error code. Low egr temp still 40-50 celsius same as before off the egr.The 1 and 4 injector corrections out of spec and the voltage 48-49 volt.Mes write these values good.between 50-90 volt.New injectors so i didnt know why out of spec my 2 injectots.

Thanks for the update.
Can you confirm the extent and amount of time your injectors are out of spec please? 1 or 2 of mine go to +/-4 for up to 10% of a run but more often are out of spec for less than 2% of the time, what I don’t know and can’t establish from anyone/anywhere is whether this is acceptable or not.
Having been prevailed on to buy MES and a laptop I’m frustrated not to have any information on how to interpret the data (of which I have plenty).
Cheers - and good luck!
Baz

 

[Masztiff]

Thanks for the update.
Can you confirm the extent and amount of time your injectors are out of spec please? 1 or 2 of mine go to +/-4 for up to 10% of a run but more often are out of spec for less than 2% of the time, what I don’t know and can’t establish from anyone/anywhere is whether this is acceptable or not.
Having been prevailed on to buy MES and a laptop I’m frustrated not to have any information on how to interpret the data (of which I have plenty).
Cheers - and good luck!
Baz

Hello
I have same situation.The 1 and 4 injectors out of spec between 3-4 minus and plus.I think one of the injectors compensate the other injector..
When add gas not problem but if hold the gas (1/4 gaspedal hold)around 2000 rpm the injectors out of spec.

 

[Baz in Kent]

Hello
Good News.Im go to Professional Ecu Tuner and he make egr off and ecu tune.The Tune was amazing and the p401 error code didnt come 2000 km ago.The air intake every time bigger then measured air intake so didnt come up the error code. Low egr temp still 40-50 celsius same as before off the egr.The 1 and 4 injector corrections out of spec and the voltage 48-49 volt.Mes write these values good.between 50-90 volt.New injectors so i didnt know why out of spec my 2 injectots.

Hello
I have same situation.The 1 and 4 injectors out of spec between 3-4 minus and plus.I think one of the injectors compensate the other injector..
When add gas not problem but if hold the gas (1/4 gaspedal hold)around 2000 rpm the injectors out of spec.

Thanks.
Ok so what happens with my engine is there are times when the injectors are out of spec at 2k rpm and not at others, I can see no other parameters that explain why.
I intend to reduce the parameters in the template so I’m measuring throttle (gas) pedal position and fuel pressure against rpm and injector corrections.
What I still don’t know is whether I have a problem or not - I guess you’re in the same situation?

 

[Masztiff]

Yes same situation.And the engine when i first log covered 40.000 Km so New. You log the low egr temp ? Mine low egr cooler full shoot up and didnt work.Mine maxx temp 50 celsius.I would not like out the injector if not cause any probleme these situation becaus still original..
i read one user from here same out of spec and he tested the injectors but working good all.You log the injector voltage ?

 

[Baz in Kent]

Yes same situation.And the engine when i first log covered 40.000 Km so New. You log the low egr temp ? Mine low egr cooler full shoot up and didnt work.Mine maxx temp 50 celsius.I would not like out the injector if not cause any probleme these situation becaus still original..
i read one user from here same out of spec and he tested the injectors but working good all.You log the injector voltage ?

My EGR valves have been replaced and run at good temperatures, also replaced DPF, injectors and cooler, I just don’t know whether or not the out of spec injectors mean I still have a problem.
Problems first occurred at c20k km.