Technical 1978 124 Project

[Twink80]

Update: new discoveries.
I got the driveshaft together and, trying to take it easy on my back, looked for a next thing to disassemble and went to the exhaust side of the engine.

exhaust manifold: missing 2 of the 5 nuts to hold it on. Looks cracked through in the middle where it mates with the head, and like a hairline crack just underneath where the pipes join up. I would value others’ assessment:
View attachment 463119
View attachment 463120
I was already considering a new header / exhaust treatment.

Side question: this car had a cat converter on it. Any strong opinions against NOT refitting or replacing that?

The top photo shows a design gap so thats ok
There is a 4:2 cast manifold that performs way better, you then need 2:1 header. Both are stock parts.
Junk the cat, it will reduce heat into the floorpan and improve performance.
I assume the car is FI ?
If you junk the cat you can also lower the floor pan to give more footspace on the passenger side.

 

[smahaley]

The top photo shows a design gap so thats ok
There is a 4:2 cast manifold that performs way better, you then need 2:1 header. Both are stock parts.
Junk the cat, it will reduce heat into the floorpan and improve performance.
I assume the car is FI ?
If you junk the cat you can also lower the floor pan to give more footspace on the passenger side.

Excellent - shall proceed accordingly. Slowly. But accordingly.

 

[Twink80]

View attachment 460164
I’ve got another thread on floor panel rust going, but thought I’d start another on other technical issues - this one is about disassembly and reassembly.

Since I started last month, I’ve removed all of the interior, including the dash. Taking the doors off helped with that, and as the car came with a roll bar (installed in 1978 when it was sold), I had to spend some quality time with sockets, wrenches, penetrating oil and yes eventually a cutoff wheel.

My process has been to bag the salvageable hardware (bolts, nuts washers, clips etc ) and label them by part. In a few cases I’ve been reinserting the bolts into their homes on the body to avoid the bag / label process.

Today I am taking a break from removing the bumpers and am washing removed parts (as possible) with a soap solution, clean water and rags. With radio on and coffee at hand, it is a great way to escape.

And I don’t want to refit dirty parts.

Starting with: hasn’t run in 2 years; engine issues
Goal: driveable car with minimal upgrades.

Great photos

It would be really useful to have a load of pictures on this site of “as built cars/barn finds”. Because nearly all cars have been modified and apart from the manuals noone can see what “original” looks like!

I try to research on eBay and auction sites but in the UK there are not any original cars. Details like front undertray/splash shield, covers inside the boot over early series lights, some cars had chrome side strips (explains all the holes I found in the front wing, door and rear wing)

I wonder if this is possible? Maybe the admin team could create a tab?

 

[Twink80]

My spider is a 79 California car, thankfully prior to my ownership someone removed the smog pump and bracket, but Willie nilly left vacume sources unplugged that should have been, and plugged things that made no difference...I just finished removing all that junk on the driver's side inner fender that even if hooked up again likely would do nothing..but didn't damage anything, it's in a box for the next owner someday,I would add I upgraded to a 32/36 on the weber, the only place I'm drawing vacume from on the intake is to the power brakes, and the vacume modulator on my automatic trans...wondering why there's that rust In Your cooling system? No matter what you can fix it!

The cylinder head usually has 2 temp senders, overheat and warm up. Yours only seems to have 1?
I think the component in front of the carb may be an air pump or egr? That can probably go with a carb fitted now

 

[Twink80]

Looking good! I just bought one of those folding engine hoists, mines a light duty with 1000lb capability, most I think are 2000, got it on amazon with free shipping , forgot the price but I think it was just under $200, I'm going to put it to the test lifting a 800lb dodge 440 motor haha, should be fine for small blocks, and fiat motors ect. I just got in the mail 2 gas tank sending unit gaskets from vicks for 10 bucks apiece , when I used my endoscope I went down the filler tube which made it hard to twist around to look so i figure it will be much easier to see with the sending unit removed...good luck with yours!View attachment 460868

Will also be handy for removing the Federal spec front and rear bumpers!!

 

[Twink80]

Yes - I have a lead on a puller; what did you do for engine stand? I think I’ll need to buy one…

Meanwhile - here’s the interior of my fuel tank - I actually think this looks pretty good. Some vinegar soak for a few days, rinsing and drying then I think I’ll put it back in…

View attachment 460874

I would replace the front to rear fuel lines with copper (microbore heating pipe) as these will likely be corroded and can leak fuel next to the driver inside the car
Depending on set up you may only need the supply side 8-10mm bore, then fit a one way breather near the tank to allow air entry as these will likely fuel is consumed.

 

[smahaley]

Will also be handy for removing the Federal spec front and rear bumpers!!

Yeah... I should have waited for the hoist before I pulled those bumpers out by hand!

 

[smahaley]

I would replace the front to rear fuel lines with copper (microbore heating pipe) as these will likely be corroded and can leak fuel next to the driver inside the car
Depending on set up you may only need the supply side 8-10mm bore, then fit a one way breather near the tank to allow air entry as these will likely fuel is consumed.

Thanks, @Twink80 - I did purchase 10 feet of standard fuel line (metal - don’t think it’s copper though) from a supplier. The car was already set up for what you describe, although poorly installed: electric fuel pump, return line, breather line. Will see what it looks like when I get to the rebuild phase.

 

[smahaley]

Today: degreasing (phase 1 of 2 probably) of the engine and trans.

 

[Slotman]

Looking great! Question, at the top of the sending unit regarding the 2 out rubber lines, one is the fuel feed to the carburator, so is the other smaller one the return line, or the breather line? And regardless of which is which , where is the 3rd line located? A bunch of stuff was unhooked on my spider when i got it, (california smog pump car) and I've removed the rest of the vacume junk on the driver's side inner fender and I did leave the carbon canister hooked up , but also tried to plug any open vacume sources and want to make sure I didn't plug something that needs to breathe...thanks! And hope your disc is getting better!

 

[124BC1]

Thanks, @Twink80 - I did purchase 10 feet of standard fuel line (metal - don’t think it’s copper though) from a supplier. The car was already set up for what you describe, although poorly installed: electric fuel pump, return line, breather line. Will see what it looks like when I get to the rebuild phase.

Although copper tubing/piping was used in the (ancient) past i.e. vintage cars, afaik, it's not recommended nowadays - it tends to age harden resulting in fractures, needs to be supported at frequent intervals c. every 12 inches iirc to try to avoid fractures and in recent times, the consequences of using fuel containing Ethanol has to be factored in - Ethanol can attack copper.

Your standard fuel line may be zinc? coated steel tube, this would be safe to use but can be a little difficult to form nice bends should you have to do so.

I would use copper-nickel (Cupro-nickel) tubing, same type as I use for replacing brake hard lines (usually 3/16"). The fuel hard lines on older Fiats are usually 8mm for the feed and 6mm for the return line and these sizes are readily available in Cu-Ni. This is rust-proof and easier to bend than steel tube.

Each end of the hard line ideally needs to be 'belled-out' or expanded slightly to prevent a hose from becoming detached - using a hose clip/clamp to attach it to a rubber hose is not sufficient.
Here's 2 ways of forming a suitable end on the tube at home - either use a pipe flaring tool (the professional kits come with tooling to suit various tube diameters) to 1/2 form a 'single bubble' flare or wrap a circle of copper wire (e.g a single strand 2.5mm.sq) near the tube end, solder in place and tidy up with a fine file. To see what I mean by forming an end on the tube, check out the pipe nipple on a carb inlet or on the fuel pump brass stubs.

 

[124BC1]

Today: degreasing (phase 1 of 2 probably) of the engine and trans.
View attachment 463266

By way of some encouragement ....

This is how your transmission can look when finished (but you don't have to strip it down to get the exterior to look like this):-
(pics of a manual transmission I rebuilt years ago)

 

[Twink80]

Although copper tubing/piping was used in the (ancient) past i.e. vintage cars, afaik, it's not recommended nowadays - it tends to age harden resulting in fractures, needs to be supported at frequent intervals c. every 12 inches iirc to try to avoid fractures and in recent times, the consequences of using fuel containing Ethanol has to be factored in - Ethanol can attack copper.

Your standard fuel line may be zinc? coated steel tube, this would be safe to use but can be a little difficult to form nice bends should you have to do so.

I would use copper-nickel (Cupro-nickel) tubing, same type as I use for replacing brake hard lines (usually 3/16"). The fuel hard lines on older Fiats are usually 8mm for the feed and 6mm for the return line and these sizes are readily available in Cu-Ni. This is rust-proof and easier to bend than steel tube.

Each end of the hard line ideally needs to be 'belled-out' or expanded slightly to prevent a hose from becoming detached - using a hose clip/clamp to attach it to a rubber hose is not sufficient.
Here's 2 ways of forming a suitable end on the tube at home - either use a pipe flaring tool (the professional kits come with tooling to suit various tube diameters) to 1/2 form a 'single bubble' flare or wrap a circle of copper wire (e.g a single strand 2.5mm.sq) near the tube end, solder in place and tidy up with a fine file. To see what I mean by forming an end on the tube, check out the pipe nipple on a carb inlet or on the fuel pump brass stubs.

All good points
The fuel line is well supported but nside the car and underneath I used metal p clips to keep it nice and tight to the floorpan.
Ethanol also attacks steel, ideally high ethanol fuel should have stainless steel compinents but how practical would s this?
I run my car on 100 octane ( you need to check each brand as they differ, Texaco in the UK is inexpensive of the best)
If you use regular fuel these days and don’t completely drain the fuel system over winter you will likely have some refurb to do in the spring! Just run on good quality fuel!

 

[Twink80]

Thanks, @Twink80 - I did purchase 10 feet of standard fuel line (metal - don’t think it’s copper though) from a supplier. The car was already set up for what you describe, although poorly installed: electric fuel pump, return line, breather line. Will see what it looks like when I get to the rebuild phase.

My other conments are that the lowest point of the fuel system is where the pioes run inside the cabin along the floor by the drivers footwell. Its buried under carpet and sound deadening so….never gets checked or inspected and guess where most of them rot! When I bought my car it had 3 bodged repairs with fuel hose and jubilee clips.
I used the heating pipe as it has a 1mm thick pvc coating over the copper. The standard fuel pipe originally fitted was steel with some sort of thin pvc coating outside.
I’m not sure when California started using Ethanol, probably around the 80’s, in the UK is much more recent and a pia! I even run my lawn mower on 100oct as the cost difference in fuel outweighs the potential for aggravation!

 

[smahaley]

My other conments are that the lowest point of the fuel system is where the pioes run inside the cabin along the floor by the drivers footwell. Its buried under carpet and sound deadening so….never gets checked or inspected and guess where most of them rot! When I bought my car it had 3 bodged repairs with fuel hose and jubilee clips.
I used the heating pipe as it has a 1mm thick pvc coating over the copper. The standard fuel pipe originally fitted was steel with some sort of thin pvc coating outside.
I’m not sure when California started using Ethanol, probably around the 80’s, in the UK is much more recent and a pia! I even run my lawn mower on 100oct as the cost difference in fuel outweighs the potential for aggravation!

Hmmmm I think I may have purchased the wrong piping: I just checked the source, and it is 5mm-6mm piping, and I think I need the larger gauge. These are steel with nylon coating. Ah. Just checked - I only bought the smaller gauge return line. ANYWAY - that's what kind of material I'll be working with when I get around to it.

Regarding fuel - I have a local source (1 mile from the house) for non-e fuel at 90 octane. That's what I ran in my carbed motorcycle... I think I'll be doing the same for this little Italian thing...

 

[smahaley]

By way of some encouragement ....

This is how your transmission can look when finished (but you don't have to strip it down to get the exterior to look like this):-
(pics of a manual transmission I rebuilt years ago)

View attachment 463267View attachment 463268View attachment 463269View attachment 463270

Ummm...... lordy! Yeah. I'm not sure I'm going to post any more pics of my ***tty work! lol Kidding aside - these are GREAT.

 

[smahaley]

Although copper tubing/piping was used in the (ancient) past i.e. vintage cars, afaik, it's not recommended nowadays - it tends to age harden resulting in fractures, needs to be supported at frequent intervals c. every 12 inches iirc to try to avoid fractures and in recent times, the consequences of using fuel containing Ethanol has to be factored in - Ethanol can attack copper.

Your standard fuel line may be zinc? coated steel tube, this would be safe to use but can be a little difficult to form nice bends should you have to do so.

I would use copper-nickel (Cupro-nickel) tubing, same type as I use for replacing brake hard lines (usually 3/16"). The fuel hard lines on older Fiats are usually 8mm for the feed and 6mm for the return line and these sizes are readily available in Cu-Ni. This is rust-proof and easier to bend than steel tube.

Each end of the hard line ideally needs to be 'belled-out' or expanded slightly to prevent a hose from becoming detached - using a hose clip/clamp to attach it to a rubber hose is not sufficient.
Here's 2 ways of forming a suitable end on the tube at home - either use a pipe flaring tool (the professional kits come with tooling to suit various tube diameters) to 1/2 form a 'single bubble' flare or wrap a circle of copper wire (e.g a single strand 2.5mm.sq) near the tube end, solder in place and tidy up with a fine file. To see what I mean by forming an end on the tube, check out the pipe nipple on a carb inlet or on the fuel pump brass stubs.

Thanks, @124BC1 - I'll be looking for a flaring tool - and yes, I have some form of steel with nylon coating tubing that came from a supplier over here in the US. Seems like it's the appropriate level of bendiness without crimping... when I get to it!

 

[smahaley]

I'm going to be reading about carburetors, but thought I'd share my current mystery:

There is a plug in a stub coming off of the intake manifold, and another on a T shaped stub beneath that one.
Also, on the carburetor, there are two lines that are plugged as well, with 2 screws.

Noting that this vehicle was sold originally in California, so I am wondering if there were anti-smog elements that were removed at some point....

Bonus mystery!
I found an elec fuel pump under the car that was installed at some point, AND I see a mechanical fuel pump (shiny brass?) on the side of the block. Huh.

 

[124BC1]

Those blanked-off stubs are, as you surmise, most likely to do with removal of Californian 'smog' equipment'.
I remember seeing the electric fuel pump in post #16 of your earlier thread on 'Assessing rust- floor panels', I mentioned the unsafe electric fuel pump installation in my reply post #26. Other members recommended that you revert to a mechanical pump, and I'd agree.
The brass colored fuel pump on your engine is either the later type that Fiat adopted (before switching to an electric pump installed in the trunk), or else an aftermarket one, that is a sealed unit, unlike the pump that has been recently discussed in Slotman's thread 'Fuel pump replacement - 79 Spider'.

 

[smahaley]

Those blanked-off stubs are, as you surmise, most likely to do with removal of Californian 'smog' equipment'.
I remember seeing the electric fuel pump in post #16 of your earlier thread on 'Assessing rust- floor panels', I mentioned the unsafe electric fuel pump installation in my reply post #26. Other members recommended that you revert to a mechanical pump, and I'd agree.
The brass colored fuel pump on your engine is either the later type that Fiat adopted (before switching to an electric pump installed in the trunk), or else an aftermarket one, that is a sealed unit, unlike the pump that has been recently discussed in Slotman's thread 'Fuel pump replacement - 79 Spider'.

Thanks - yeah; I'm thinking I might ditch the sketchy elec fuel pump (that was hanging out under the car) and go with the mechanical. I'll see if I can figure out a little testing setup to see if the one i have will draw and spit. I'm just plodding along, taking things apart, and wondering how it ever ran at this point. Clearly someone(s) took some shortcuts when working on this engine - more missing or mismatched washers, nuts on the intake side today...