My clutch has recently started slipping, only under load - on hills or acceleration. The revs rise and I have to back off to stop it slipping.

No history of a new clutch or hydraulics, 103k miles. Pedal action is fine, clutch engages and disengages fine.

I suspect oil contamination. Recently had a trip with some fairly steep hills and quite a heavy load on board, so it's been stressed a bit more than it's used to.

At one point after a climb there was an oil-burning sort of smell, but I wasn't 100% sure it was coming from the car. And for the first time, the engine lost a tiny amount of oil. Then the clutch slipped for the first time and has been doing it occasionally since.

There's nothing dripping on to the ground, but the bottom of the bell-housing is wet with oil. It doesn't smell, so I guess it must be engine oil.

So I'm guessing as well as a complete clutch kit, it will also need a rear crankshaft oil seal.

I was planning to do it myself as I've done a couple of clutches before, but never a rear main seal.

This is all I've found so far on 4cardata.info:



I'm hoping from this it should be a case of prising the seal out of the rear crankshaft cover and pressing a new one in.

Could anyone point me in the direction of a useful guide to changing the rear main seal, please? Would the Haynes manual be useful for this job? Would anyone be prepared to share any suggestions for the procedure, please?

I'll be sure to check the clutch fork and gearbox input shaft for play.

Is there anything else I should be looking at as a potential cause for oil contamination of the clutch? Anything else I should consider changing whilst the 'box and clutch are off?

As ever, thank you for any advice!

Pretty much every gearbox I have looked at. The input shaft leaks into the bellhousing.

And I have looked at a lot lately as I need a new one

Even at low mileage 50K. Seen one leaking at 22K

However it rarely actually reaches the clutch plate itself


No idea why we don't see more problems on the Panda gearbox. As soon a 1.2 fiat Gearbox turns up at the breakers is gone.

Thanks koalar. I found a few threads on clutch slip on the MJ & 100HP, including a suggestion to replace the gearbox oil seal and input shaft bearing if there's play in the shaft.

It doesn't smell like transmission oil on mine though.

Hope you find a new 'box for your latest Panda soon

Doesn't really smell of anything

Heres all that was left of mine. more metal than oil

500 uses the same gearbox plenty around

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_...sacat=0&_from=R40&rt=nc&LH_ItemCondition=3000


any that are shiny aluminium have been cleaned


Any wet and dark looking have been leaking from the input seal


Any light brown are normal wear and tear


Not sure how anyone could charge £250 for some of these

At that mileage I would fit a new input bearing to the gearbox as pert of the clutch change. It's a 2RS sealed type.

The crank seal began leaking on my MJ which caused the clutch to start slipping.

It was annoying as the clutch was changed less than 40k miles earlier.

Anyway, wasn't difficult.

Once old clutch was off, I took the flywheel off, then prised out the old seal.

The new seal came with a solid plastic ring which helped fit it in.... gently tapped it in all the way round using the ring.

Flywheel back on, using new bolts.

My gearbox was fine.....but then 40k miles before the previous owner spent over £3k on having it upgraded and rebuilt!!

Cinq999 said:

The crank seal began leaking on my MJ which caused the clutch to start slipping.

It was annoying as the clutch was changed less than 40k miles earlier.

Anyway, wasn't difficult.

Once old clutch was off, I took the flywheel off, then prised out the old seal.

The new seal came with a solid plastic ring which helped fit it in.... gently tapped it in all the way round using the ring.

Flywheel back on, using new bolts.

My gearbox was fine.....but then 40k miles before the previous owner spent over £3k on having it upgraded and rebuilt!!

Click to expand...

I don't think the gearbox side can get onto the clutch. I think hits the outside of cover plate and flung away. but not sure if this happens 100% of the time

Engine seals can be hard to extract. Drill a small hole into the metal lining of the seal, screw in a self tapper and use that to lever the seal.

Thank you all for your replies. I've decided to go ahead with a new clutch kit, rear main seal, input shaft bearing and seal

Ahem - nearly six months later...

Thanks to @koalar who pointed out there's an inspection hole in the top of the bell housing.

It's hidden under a coolant hose so I had to push this out of the way.

I stuck a finger in and it came out black and oily, with the distinctive smell of transmission oil.

Clutch and flywheel off, there was a bit of play in the input shaft and the crankshaft main rear seal was also leaking.

So my clutch was being lubricated from both sides... It's nice and shiny as you can see:

The input shaft bearing wasn't too hard to remove. I tried a variety of chisels and pry bars before settling on an old screwdriver I could place against the inner race. A few smart taps whilst rotating the shaft and it dropped off.

I measured the gap to the cog behind the bearing at 25 thou and tapped the new bearing down to the same gap.

I used an SKF Explorer 6204 C3 bearing.

The play in the shaft caused the input shaft oil seal to deform, causing it to leak, so this was replaced.

New main rear seal and clutch on.

My everlasting gratitude to awesome forum member @nitramtpr who not only offered me his surplus LUK clutch for free, but even agreed to post it to the remote depths of Ireland!

Thank you to everyone who offered advice. The job wasn't too bad, just a lot of spanner-waggling required and I took my time over three days (it rained on the second day so I only did the input shaft bearing and seal and figured that was probably enough for one day...)

The hardest parts of the job for me?
1. removing the right side driveshaft from the differential. The left one popped out with a tap with a chisel, but the right side did not want to budge. Eventually pried it out with a screwdriver. After wrecking two other screwdrivers.
2. removing the battery tray! I had to drill out the bolts that hold it to the chassis leg.
3. getting the gearbox back on. I needed an assistant to hold it up from above.
4. removing the input shaft bearing from the bell housing. Obviously there's a tool for this but I didn't bother getting it. I pried/bashed it out with a chisel.

Oh, and it wasn't the original clutch after all. It's dated December 2013, so at most 7 years old, and still quite a bit of meat left on it.

So if your clutch needs changing, I would advise getting the input shaft bearing checked for play. It seems quite a common failure on these boxes.

A couple of resources I found really helpful:
Mr Wild's excellent guide to replacing the input shaft bearing and seal
Williams Mobile Clutch YouTube video

FIAT part numbers:
Main rear seal 7724665
Input shaft seal 40004670

Just as a warning, there are places selling the input shaft bearing and seal 'kit' at £30+. It's a £3 bearing (SKF) and a £3 seal (Corteco).

well done on getting it sorted

just had another look on eBay. See the price of gearboxes have gone up

There's one at £225 the looks like its lost all its gearbox oil into the bellhousing

I know my input bearing failed after a clutch replacement and have heard of another that failed shortly after the clutch was replaced.

What I don't know is. Did the clutch fail because it was already leaking and the garage hoped to get away with it lasting another year, fitted with insufficient oil or damaged by carless fitting.

Your guess is as good as mine. But if you do the job yourself at lest you know it was done the best of your ability. Instead of by someone on a time limit.

I made myself a special tool for separating the inner driveshafts from the gearbox. Every instruction video shows a long prybar but they are usable only with the car on a lift.

https://www.fiatforum.com/panda/484547-drive-shaft-separator-tool.html?484547=#post4570510

Wear strong gloves (and obviously eyes and ears protection), because the discs will shatter as the cut deepens. One of my gloves got ripped by a shattering disc. No harm done but pretty scary.

My cut edges were razor sharp, so don't forget to round off the cut edges. As said above my welding was a bit rubbish but its good enough for the required task and it works great. Before fully welding, tack one side then align the other side so the prongs are parallel and tack the other side.

Edit -
I had already tried this wedged fork to shift the driveshaft but it just pinged away. Useless TBH. Now - with a suitable gap between the forks - it just works.

rmjbn1 said:

The hardest parts of the job for me?
4. removing the input shaft bearing from the bell housing. Obviously there's a tool for this but I didn't bother getting it. I pried/bashed it out with a chisel.

Click to expand...

Ooops, I don't mean the input shaft bearing, but the input shaft seal that's in the bell housing, and for me was harder to remove than the bearing itself...

koalar said:

if you do the job yourself at lest you know it was done the best of your ability. Instead of by someone on a time limit.

Click to expand...

Thank you koalar! I was feeling a bit ashamed that it took me so long. I guess an experienced mechanic might do it in 5 or 6 hours? I must have spent that long just cleaning things!

koalar said:

Pretty much every gearbox I have looked at. The input shaft leaks into the bellhousing. However it rarely actually reaches the clutch plate itself

Click to expand...

I've been considering this, and I'm sure you're right.

At first I thought my clutch was slipping because of engine oil, because the oil around the bottom of the bellhousing was quite thin and didn't smell.

Then I though it must be gearbox oil because the oil inside the inspection hole was thicker and did smell.

It's hard to be sure, as everything around the flywheel and bellhousing was coated in oil, but I suspect it was the crankshaft main rear seal leak that actually contaminated the clutch plate.

To add a bit more on this. My 1.2/60 clutch was getting heavy so heading for giving trouble. I've just pulled it out as rather now than in the winter cold. Friction plate is just down to the rivets so it's done. Gearbox input shaft bearing has no wobble and the splines are dry. But, knowing how they behave, I've taken a look. You have to part open the gearbox then unbolt the reverse gear selector frame from the clutch side of the box. The bell-housing now slides off.

My shaft seal is still soft Yay! Not bad for a 2007 car on the original clutch.

My input bearing has no play but feels rough so it has to go. WTF! Pretty carp to be honest Fiat should do better.

Really Fiat what are you on?. The bearing housing in the case has a drain slot between the seal and the bearing but there is no sign of any entry slot or drilled hole for oil to enter at the top. Even worse, it has a nylon shield which almost fills the gap between the two races. It's not a seal so can't trap oil but it can't allow very much splash into the races either.

I've just bought an SKF 6204 C3 (20 x 47 x 14) without cage or seals and a puller to get the old one off. Hopefully it will arrive in time for me to get it all back together before the car is needed.

If anyone wonders, the six speed box used on 100HP has a much bigger uncaged roller bearing on the input shaft. Mine was as good as new when I replaced the seal. Reverse gear has the same setup with two M8 bolts accessed when the cover is about 20mm away from the casing.

DaveMcT said:

.

I've just bought an SKF 6204 C3 (20 x 47 x 14) without cage or seals and a puller to get the old one off. Hopefully it will arrive in time for me to get it all back together before the car is needed.

.

Click to expand...

Does the puller fit behind the bearing inner race There is roughly the thickness of two stanly blades behind it. If the bearing is still in good condition it would pull off from the outer with a bearing puller but probably never needed changing.

I used a hammer and chisel on the two I have stripped down as the bearing outer just fell off.

DaveMcT said:

Fiat should do better.

Really Fiat what are you on?.

Click to expand...

DaveMcT said:

it has a nylon shield which almost fills the gap between the two races.

Click to expand...

That isn’t a nylon shield. The ring is part of the cage. It’s a reinforcing ring and is on one side only

Topped up and looked after with clean oil they are good for an easy 200,000 miles. Fiat chose to use this by far more expensive specialist bearing instead of a cheaper standard bearing as you are now fitting and as they have used elsewhere in the gearbox

Far be it for me to guess why. But at over £2 per gearbox it adds up when you are producing box’s by the millions

The six speed box used in 100HP has a considerably bigger roller bearing on the input shaft. Mine looked as good as new so obviously not replaced. Not bad after 120,000 miles. The rollers are not virtually covered by the shield/cage and its not "protected" by the adjacent gear wheel. Oil can easily get where it's needed. The much smaller 20x47x14 in the five speed box is running rough at just 85,000 miles. To me it looks inadequate for the job it has to do. But what do I know it's easy to criticise.

Despite the delays and additional work, I'm thankful that I decided to swap the input seal. I found a bad bearing and it's replacement should outlast the new clutch.

I'm fitting an SKF from Simply Bearings, so quality is assured. With luck it should outlast the car.

DaveMcT said:

My input bearing has no play but feels rough so it has to go. WTF! Pretty carp to be honest Fiat should do better.

Really Fiat what are you on?.

Click to expand...

I repeat Fiat chose not to use a cheap bearing but a very special bearing here. It not cheap nor nasty.


They are good for over 200K miles

Fiat used cheaper bearings elsewhere in their gearbox