Technical Clutch slip 2004 Panda 1.2

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Technical Clutch slip 2004 Panda 1.2

These cars have no pilot bearing. The clutch is a fair few inches away. Any forces here due to a clutch to flywheel misalignment will be multiplied at the input bearing similar to using a breakers bar and will soon destroy any bearing and eventually the crank seal.

The two gearboxes I have seen with failed input bearing were both right after a clutch change.

Coincidence, possibly.
 
I have just fitted an SKF replacement because while still running, the old bearing feels rough and sounds noisy. Its done 85,000 miles, and will probably be falling apart by 100K miles. There is absolutely no way it could do 200K.

Interestingly, the second shaft has a much bigger bearing that's fully sealed complete with soft seals on either side. Who knows wy something similar is not appropriate for the input bearing.

The six speed box used on 100HP has a far bigger input bearing. Mine was as good as new so not replaced.

Both gearboxes had hardened input shaft seals though the 100HP was in worse condition than the 1.2.
 
These cars have no pilot bearing. The clutch is a fair few inches away. Any forces here due to a clutch to flywheel misalignment will be multiplied at the input bearing similar to using a breakers bar and will soon destroy any bearing and eventually the crank seal.

The two gearboxes I have seen with failed input bearing were both right after a clutch change.

Coincidence, possibly.
For what it is, the gearbox is extremely heavy. Getting it back onto the engine is a nightmare. I have made a wood cradle so I can jack the gearbox level but still can't get it to connect. I will probably have to pull it out again and recheck the driven plate has not become misaligned. It's doubtful that's happened but I'm clutching at straws.

I suspect damage gets done when garages brute force the box back into place.
 
Wow! Nice work!
How did you put the new bearing in? Did you put it on the input shaft first and then "dressed" upon them both the bell housing, or just hammered it into the bell housing before?
 
Wow! Nice work!
How did you put the new bearing in? Did you put it on the input shaft first and then "dressed" upon them both the bell housing, or just hammered it into the bell housing before?
You have to hammer it on first

Only via the inner race

Fiat have a special tool which is nothing more than a tube that slips over the shaft and is of an exact length

You will need to measure the gap before removing the old bearing. Sorry I can’t remember what it is. It’s not tight against the gear and then tap up the new bearing to the same set of feeler gauges

If you use the bell housing you risk damaging the bearing and it will be at too high of a preload

Official is similar to this
1DF4FC1A-29BC-4B43-87B0-5B7801E254B7.png
 
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Mine had zero gap between bearing and shaft shoulder. Any gap you do create is likely to close up when the car is used so is there really any point? I would expect any shimming to be done at the other end of the box so mine went back as it came out. I used an SKF bearing to replace the original SKF bearing so I'm comfortable with it.

How it's done.
Before doing anything else, thoroughly wash the gearbox. Mine was really kacked up. Shove (clean) rags into the output shaft holes to keep dirt out.

(1) Remove the gear shifter cover (get yourself a replacement seal and roll pin so that can be fixed as well)
(2) Remove bolts holding the bell-housing to the gearbox.
(3) Slide bellhousing off the box about 20mm until you can see the reverse gear selector frame.
(4) Remove the two M8 bolts holding the shifter frame. Use a ring/open end spanner.
(5) Slide the bell-housing off the gearbox and recover the bolt(s) as necessary.
(6) Screw a sharp point screw into the input seal and pull out the seal with a forked prybar. Fit the new seal and grease the sealing lip.
(7) Use a three legged puller to remove the input bearing. It's a tight fit on the shaft. You need a long legged puller to reach. DO NOT hammer the puller to impact the bearing as this will damage the bearing on the other end of the shaft.
(8) Fit the new bearing. You will need a suitable tube to fit over the shaft and bear on the inner race. 21mm ID is good. You dont want the tube jammed on the shaft. Grease the new bearing for start up lube.
(9) Put the two M8 bolts into the reverse gear selector frame and hold in place the small zip ties. Fit the housing into the box and make sure the fork is around the reverse cog.
(10) Coat the joint face with anaerobic gasket sealant. RTV goes off too fast.
(11) Slide the bell-housing onto the box. When the reverse bolts line up tighten them into place. Once the threads start you can cut the tip ties away. You will need to fiddle the selector ball into place. Fiddly, but no big deal.
(12) Fully tighten the M8 bolts and close up the gearbox.
(13) Fit all the cover bolts and torque to spec.
(14) Ensure the box is set in neutral and refit the shifter cover.
 
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A couple of resources I found really helpful:
Mr Wild's excellent guide to replacing the input shaft bearing and seal
Williams Mobile Clutch YouTube video
FIAT part numbers:
Main rear seal 7724665
Input shaft seal 40004670

Just as a warning, there are places selling the input shaft bearing and seal 'kit' at £30+. It's a £3 bearing (SKF) and a £3 seal (Corteco).
In the 7-page Mr. Wild's excellent guide, some people write that they managed to replace the bearing without taking the bell-house out. Only by separating apart the gearbox itself while the bell was still assembled.
How is that possible? Won't the throwout (release) bearing fall to the bottom of the bell when you pull out the input shaft?
 
I really struggled to fit the gearbox to the engine. This is how I got it done -

Trolley jack under the gearbox and a 1 inch ratchet strap from above. The strap balances the weight when put around the box, up against the bell housing. I use a steel tube above on two timbers. One spanning between the shock towers the other to spread load on the bonnet shut panel. The tube allows the strap to slid so you can rotate the box.

Support the gearbox end of engine with ratchet strap. Let it droop as far as possible probaby about 15 degrees downwards.Wrestle the box under the car and get the stra[ around over the support bar/tube above. Working the ratchet buckle lifts the gearbox.

It needed a couple of resets to get it high enough - jack supports box while the strap is pulled through to remove excess slack. Being able to easily rotate the box and accurately adjust the height allows it to line up straight and "drop" into place. I had a temporary long bolt through one of the M12s at the front but it wasn't really needed.

It would be easier with the shifter and it's cover NOT in place but you would need to cover the hole with something suitable. Maybe use some ducktape over the hole.

Anyhow, it's now on the car and the gearbox mount bolted up, so just got to refit all the other "stuff".
 
In the 7-page Mr. Wild's excellent guide, some people write that they managed to replace the bearing without taking the bell-house out. Only by separating apart the gearbox itself while the bell was still assembled.
How is that possible? Won't the throwout (release) bearing fall to the bottom of the bell when you pull out the input shaft?
The clutch release bearing might be ok as it sits on a spigot cast into the bell-housing. However, the gearbox can't simply pull out of the bell-housing because the reverse gear selector gets in the way. Those two M8 bolts are fiddly on the bench. I would think near impossible in the car.

You might manage it with the car on a garage lift**. But, by the time you've got that far you might as well take off the whole lot and replace the clutch.

** The whole job is 10x easier with garage car lift.
 
Wow! Nice work!
How did you put the new bearing in? Did you put it on the input shaft first and then "dressed" upon them both the bell housing, or just hammered it into the bell housing before?
Hi, and thanks! :)

As koalar says, I hammered the input shaft bearing into place. I used a big box spanner that sat on the inner race. It didn't need much force, just a few smart taps.

The input shaft bearing on my car had a small gap to the cog behind it. I measured it at 25thou and placed the feeler gauge against the cog when installing the new bearing to keep the same gap.
In the 7-page Mr. Wild's excellent guide, some people write that they managed to replace the bearing without taking the bell-house out. Only by separating apart the gearbox itself while the bell was still assembled.
How is that possible? Won't the throwout (release) bearing fall to the bottom of the bell when you pull out the input shaft?
No, I don't think the release bearing can fall when the input shaft is removed.

The only way (as far as I know) of replacing the bearing without removing the bell-housing would be to take the cover off the opposite end of the gearbox, but that sounds like more work to me as all the gearbox internals need to be removed:
 
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The only way (as far as I know) of replacing the bearing without removing the bell-housing would be to take the cover off the opposite end of the gearbox, but that sounds like more work to me as all the gearbox internals need to be removed:

correct

The cover is very thin and held on with silicone gasket

You need the cut through and then the plates underneath are held on with tight screws. You really need an impact wrench to safety undo

It’s possible to do the job either way. But I don’t see why bother doing it from the back as you need to drop the gearbox to change the clutch anyhow.
 
The input shaft bearing on my car had a small gap to the cog behind it. I measured it at 25thou and placed the feeler gauge against the cog when installing the new bearing to keep the same gap.
Correct

They all have a gap

The proper tool sets the bearing at the right distance

If you don’t have a gap the input shaft and bearing will not be supported correctly

Not pushed on far enough increases the preload
 
My new SKF C3 opens ball bearing was gently tapped until it hit the shoulder on the shaft. To be fair, I did not use a feeler gauge to look for any gap, but there was nothing visible with a light held behind. The bearing was up against the shoulder as you would expect in any other situation.

A C3 bearing is needed, probably because the shaft interference is tight. I used a three-legged puller with a well lubricated jack screw. My puller legs were too short but they are linked to pivot in the middle so I made up longer links from steel strip. Basically make one and use that as a pattern to make the other five.

I pulled the puller up tight and was tempted to hit the screw head to shock the bearing loose - but that would impact the other end bearing, so I turned up the pressure, using a screwdriver between the legs to counter the spanner torque. It came loose with an audible "PING" and then moved quite easily. There is no way something that tight could be fitted with an accurate gap between the inner bearing race and the shaft shoulder.

The new bearing was fitted with an aluminium tube of suitable diameter to tap it into place. It does not need much impact, but pre-heating the bearing to 150 degs C would have been a much better idea. I stand corrected on that one.

When done, I slathered on some grease for start-up lube and boxed up the gearbox. Time will tell if the new bearing out-lasts the new clutch.

The gear oil filler has a 12mm AF hex socket and my goodness it's tight. I had a 12mm ring/open spanner with a 19mm hooked into the open end before it shifted. Maybe try a breaker bar next time.

Edit -
I filled the gear oil with car front end still on axle stands. This will have the box slightly over-filled as it took 1.8 lites before oil was dribbling out of the filler hole. It just might help the input bearing to be better lubed. We will have to see how it goes.
 
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My new SKF C3 opens ball bearing was gently tapped until it hit the shoulder on the shaft. To be fair,.
Doesn’t sound correct to me

I have changed two gearboxes and fitted new bearings to the secondhand replacements boxes

That’s 4 gearbox I have had apart. They have all have a gap

It will effect how it’s oiled, end float and support
 
I agree but it's done now. Hopefully it will be ok.

As said, my old input bearing was a tight fit on the shaft. The new one tapped down nicely, but one tap too many would need the puller to get it back, risking bearing damage.

I did not remove the non-drive end cover, but suspect that is the approved way to approach the job. A long extension will reach those reverse gear selector bolts and bearing preload(s) can be checked.

The bearing is not a tight fit into the bell-housing/cover. I did not do a solder wire clearance check but would expect some sort of clearance between bearing and bottom of the hole.
 
How heavy is a 1.2 gearbox? small car small engine, wouldn't expect it to be extremely heavy
It’s relative

36 kilograms is a fair lump.

But is lighter than most others I have done

I push it on from underneath with my knees and hands. I do borrow a neighbour to tie it off to a beam that’s across the wings just incase I get tired.
 
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