What Shocked You Today

[vexorg]

Modern driving instructors with their lack of going through the gears.
I was out with a newly qualified driver on the backroads of scotland, that was a painful experience. The whole brake and then change down when needed nonsense should be kicked out of the instructors methods (physically kicked on my experience with driving instructors).

Every time it was stomp on the brake at a corner/bend/steep hill/junction, then by the time they change down the turbo had dropped off so a long painful wait to get moving again.
Conventional normal driving (old style) had you go through the gear when looking ahead and leads to a much more fluid drive.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Modern driving instructors with their lack of going through the gears.
I was out with a newly qualified driver on the backroads of scotland, that was a painful experience. The whole brake and then change down when needed nonsense should be kicked out of the instructors methods (physically kicked on my experience with driving instructors).

Every time it was stomp on the brake at a corner/bend/steep hill/junction, then by the time they change down the turbo had dropped off so a long painful wait to get moving again.
Conventional normal driving (old style) had you go through the gear when looking ahead and leads to a much more fluid drive.

I've witnessed this technique in my children when they were taught to drive and I do agree with you. I don't think it leads to the vehicle being under such good control. My experience is that you tend to get into the situation where the driver has braked off a lot of the speed so that the corner, or whatever, can be negotiated at appropriate speed. However then time is taken to select the appropriate gear exactly when the power needs to be picked up on the throttle. I've also witnessed an inappropriate gear being selected and I think that's because there is no engine noise - because it's turning such low RPM - thus making it difficult to judge whether you, for instance, need to select 3rd, or 2nd. If you are changing down through the box as you approach the bend then engine noise will be heard in relation to speed being traveled and it's easy to select the appropriate gear but more importantly, power is instantly available at the touch of the throttle pedal. I know the argument is that you cause more gearbox wear but I've driven like this all my life and, apart from my spectacular exploits with Twinkle's final drive break up last year, I've had no gearbox problems at all in the many years I've been driving. Fuel consumption? Possibly uses a sniff more? maybe not though as most engines now cut fueling to nil on a trailing throttle.

One thing I really do think badly needs to be addressed though is how they are taught to select 1st gear while waiting at traffic lights etc. All my children were taught to do this. I know this then makes it simpler when the time comes to pull away but it means you can be stressing out the release bearing and diaphragm fingers for quite a long time at some junctions. Many seem to think it's Ok to hold the car on the clutch at lights when on a hill, is this being recommended too? I learned to drive back when clutch release bearings were the carbon type and would wear very rapidly if you tried this. "Old Mr Scott" who taught all of us to drive, used to slap your left leg if you held the car on the clutch - just thought, wonder if he did that to my sister? He liked to see your left foot on the floor unless you were actually needing to disengage the clutch. I know modern ball race type release bearings are much more robust but they won't put up with being constantly abused like this - as many of us who've worked in the trade will be aware.

 

[portland_bill]

Modern driving instructors with their lack of going through the gears.
I was out with a newly qualified driver on the backroads of scotland, that was a painful experience. The whole brake and then change down when needed nonsense should be kicked out of the instructors methods (physically kicked on my experience with driving instructors).

Every time it was stomp on the brake at a corner/bend/steep hill/junction, then by the time they change down the turbo had dropped off so a long painful wait to get moving again.
Conventional normal driving (old style) had you go through the gear when looking ahead and leads to a much more fluid drive.

This is not a modern thing, having been included in the first edition of Roadcraft, the Police drivers' manual, around the mid fifties. Comes with the phrase, "brakes to slow, gears to go." If done properly, this brings better control of the car, as when the clutch is disengaged, the vehicle is less stable. The problem is that this technique takes time to finesse, and instructors do not seem to take the time to ensure the learner gets it. Sequential changing takes less thought, so is easier.
If they are 'stomping' on the brake, that is the first problem, as they need to look further ahead, and plan better, not react. Most do not leave enough time to make the gearchange, so everything is hurried, which won't ever bring a good result. Arrival at teh hazard should be with the engine pulling gently, the slowing process having been finished earlier.
There are times when overlapping the brake and gear will be necessary, such as downhill. However, with modern petrols having the engine braking dialled out, sequential changing is bringing nothing anyway.
Nothing wrong with the process, everything wrong with the execution of it.

One thing I really do think badly needs to be addressed though is how they are taught to select 1st gear while waiting at traffic lights etc. All my children were taught to do this. I know this then makes it simpler when the time comes to pull away but it means you can be stressing out the release bearing and diaphragm fingers for quite a long time at some junctions.

This is poor instruction. (Laziness)
In the early stages, the learner will take a long time to select 1st gear, and move away, that the second car will be facing another red light. Initially we will have them hold 1st gear if first or second in the line, but if third or further back, neutral should be used. As they progress, they should be encouraged to select neutral and release the clutch. Observation and anticipation of the lights is key. Identifying when they went red, who else gets a turn before you, so being able to select 1st gear just before the green. I doubt many instructors have the technical knowledge to explain the potential expense of the poor technique.

 

[porta]

What happened to engine breaking before a corner, if you’re driving to the conditions of the road, then lifting off, dropping a gear etc etc…my daughter was the same on breaking too heavily for a corner, witnessed wehn I followed her to the fuel station for the first time after giving her our cross, she’d then lost so much velocity that even the diesel was struggling to pick up momentum. I explained how to lose momentum gradually and then we went out for a few hours round the country lanes here. She was surprised how much easier it was to flow between corners and what to look out for on red/white marker posts and chevrons

 

[PuntoHowTo]

I am happy to be corrected If I am wrong, but pretty sure the procedure is brake, slot it into the right gear and turn then you are in the right gear to accelerate out of the corner.

Nothing more annoying than someone who constantly stirs the gears going up and down the box with every change in speed.

Going back up the box if you want to be in 5th or 6th just hold the throttle a little longer and block change up, no need to constantly go up and down through the gears all the time.

Of course the other option is just to anticipate a corner is coming up and not hurtle towards it full throttle brake accellerate, brake for the next corner and so on, don't change up if you are going to be applying the brake in 1 second time and need to change down again.

I can appreciate that a new driver may not have had much time to finesse their skills having just past a test, but I am sure they will get there.

 

[bugsymike]

I agree with the previous comments.
The one that really gets me is holding the clutch down for long periods at junctions.
I also noticed on many cars now they won't start unless clutch pedal down (VW Tiguan etc.)
Many years ago I went to a breakdown, supposedly a flat battery as starter wouldn't turn. Long story short owner always started car with clutch pedal on the floor, the fault was the crank thrust bearings designed to take the pressure when clutch disengaged had worn so badly due to no oil on starting like that, the engine crankshaft had seized to the engine block and was scrap, so a complete outright purchase for a new engine!
I am sure there are many excellent driving instructors although when I went with one of my daughters and stood in the viewing area, five male instructors all tried to stand staring out the window at the learners doing the parallel parking test, it appeared in a direct attempt to unsettle the pupils, at the same time they were slagging off their clients to each other, the only one that didn't and seemed to distance themselves was the single female instructor.
So I stood with my back to the window daring them to continue and they all backed off, I fully accept not all are like that , but those I thought were a bunch of ar*sh*les.
Another thing that doesn't seem to be taught is consideration for other motorists coming up a hill and with any obstruction on the down side which I was taught, give way to cars coming up the hill and if the obstruction is on your side. Has the Highway Code changed?

 

[portland_bill]

What happened to engine breaking before a corner, if you’re driving to the conditions of the road, then lifting off, dropping a gear etc etc…my daughter was the same on breaking too heavily for a corner, witnessed wehn I followed her to the fuel station for the first time after giving her our cross, she’d then lost so much velocity that even the diesel was struggling to pick up momentum. I explained how to lose momentum gradually and then we went out for a few hours round the country lanes here. She was surprised how much easier it was to flow between corners and what to look out for on red/white marker posts and chevrons

There is a phrase, 'acceleration sense'. This comes from planning ahead, and releasing the accelerator in good time to reduce speed for the next hazard. This should alway sbe the first resort, with braking used if necessary. If the speed reduction requires a lower gear, then take it. But the sequence should still be speed first, then gear, whether it be brakes, or just letting go of the push. Only time to use gears to slow, is on snow or ice, unless one craves excitement.
Overbraking comes from a nervous instructor, causing their students to always approach too slowly. Our cars are much better dynamically than our nerves, so they will usually be capable of taking corners faster than the view permits. There are many roads where good views across corners are available. On these, I allow students to approach faster than ideal, just by not nagging about slowing. The resultant speed around the corner allows them to feel what too fast is like, without being near to any risk of loss of control. Keeping them below that threshold is unsafe, I feel, as they will never know actually how fast is too fast.
Another learning method I use is to approach a corner, at a safe speed. Get them to think whether the car felt safe, and if they think it could cope with more speed. Then approach the same corner 1mph faster. Repeat until the 'ooooh!' moment. Now they have something to remember and work with. Large empty car parks can be fun, but they are difficult to find.
Early on, learners tend to dance between accelerator and brake, always on one or the other. Getting them to just let go, of both, and see what happens, can be difficult. The accelerator is an infinite control, not steps, but this can be difficult to get across. A rotary volume control can be useful, as they will not turn it up a lot, then down, then up, etc., to obtain the desired volume, so then they understand the possibility of smoother accelerator control, instead of bouncing on it. I will often sit stationary, and aks them to gently increae the revs to 1500, and hold, then gently up to 2000, and hold. From there, reduce slowly to 1500 again. Difficult, but makes them work, and understand that jerky movements will not achieve the desired effect.

 

[portland_bill]

I can appreciate that a new driver may not have had much time to finesse their skills having just past a test, but I am sure they will get there.

Don't be too sure. We only get better if we analyse and try to improve. If they have no idea that there's a better way, they may just remain poor. I meet a lot of experienced drivers with poor control finesse. Harsh steering, so corners are like a 20p, accelerator like a switch, so constantly being thrust back, then dropped forward, stabbing gearchanges, and sudden braking. So many are surprised when I ask if their kids get car sick. Then tell them the accelerator yo-yo is a contributor. (I know the answer, the smell is always there.)

I fully accept not all are like that , but those I thought were a bunch of ar*sh*les.

Sadly, lots are. I also hate the ones slagging off their students. If their student is not good enough, why are they at the test centre?

Another thing that doesn't seem to be taught is consideration for other motorists coming up a hill and with any obstruction on the down side which I was taught, give way to cars coming up the hill and if the obstruction is on your side. Has the Highway Code changed?

Don't think the Highway Code specifically mentions hills any more in this context. This is a very old rule, from when cars were often not capable of steep hill starts. I think we're past that now. Vehicles presented for test, must have integral head restraints, so that Austin 7 is not suitable. So giving priority to uphill is now just courtesy.

 

[bugsymike]

Don't think the Highway Code specifically mentions hills any more in this context. This is a very old rule, from when cars were often not capable of steep hill starts. I think we're past that now. Vehicles presented for test, must have integral head restraints, so that Austin 7 is not suitable. So giving priority to uphill is now just courtesy.

We have a steep hill near here with parking on the downhill side, you can almost guarantee the large 4x4 that hurtles towards you driving past all the pull in points is being driven by "yummy mummy" who then expects you to mount the kerb or reverse to let them through

 

[portland_bill]

We have a steep hill near here with parking on the downhill side, you can almost guarantee the large 4x4 that hurtles towards you driving past all the pull in points is being driven by "yummy mummy" who then expects you to mount the kerb or reverse to let them through

Courtesy and 4x4, not usually combined in any way.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I also noticed on many cars now they won't start unless clutch pedal down (VW Tiguan etc.)

Been like that for a few years now on many makes. I first came across it over in the States when I, unusually, hired a manual trans car. It was the only vehicle left at that depot, we were just off a trans Atlantic flight and very tired and two couples in front of us had just turned it down, With a two hour drive to my sister in front of us I almost fell over my own feet rushing up to the desk.

Many years ago I went to a breakdown, supposedly a flat battery as starter wouldn't turn. Long story short owner always started car with clutch pedal on the floor, the fault was the crank thrust bearings designed to take the pressure when clutch disengaged had worn so badly due to no oil on starting like that, the engine crankshaft had seized to the engine block and was scrap, so a complete outright purchase for a new engine!

I was vividly alerted to this by having a hammer thrown at me by the foreman for starting a Triumph 2000 in this way very early on in my career. He had a small hammer which he threw at all the apprentices when he was unhappy with them, which rather offended me as I'd got all my city and guilds by then (but I was the youngest qualified man in the shop) Up 'till then I'd always been told to start cars with the clutch pedal depressed as it lessens the strain on the starter by eliminating the drag of the gearbox from the task. When he'd calmed down the foreman took me aside and explained about the "dry thrust washer problem". We had quite a number of customers who ran Triumph 2000s and one day the foreman called me over and said "This one is yours" pointing at a light blue example. Just park it in that bay and we'll work on it together. I jumped in and started the engine, without touching the clutch pedal. Then I depressed the pedal to engage gear and the engine stalled. The car had just come in so the engine was hot, so, I thought, Funny? Tried again and it did the same. A highly amused foreman came over and said, "Give it a bit of welly as you push the pedal" and that did keep it running. "Thrust washers" he said, "thought you'd like to see" When we got it all stripped down there was pretty much nothing left of them, you could measure the end float almost in inches! If I remember the shaft was so worn the thrust faces couldn't be cleaned up within tolerance so, although the journals were ok a new shaft had to be procured. I think all the vehicles in the "Family Fleet", except Becky and, maybe? the 2014 Mazda2 are started in this way now - hope some thought has been put into thrust washer design?

Another thing that doesn't seem to be taught is consideration for other motorists coming up a hill and with any obstruction on the down side which I was taught, give way to cars coming up the hill and if the obstruction is on your side. Has the Highway Code changed?

I still tend to do this if it's not causing great inconvenience to the folk behind me. I also, when safe to do so, will let drivers out of side turnings or turn across my front into a side road. Driving manners are very poor these days I find. Everyone is in too much of a hurry and courtesy almost non existent. Not many folk will now give a cheery wave when you've given way to them or obliged them in some other way. In fact I read the other day that police and the like consider you not to be fully in command of your vehicle if you give someone a wavy and might book you for it - Oh deary me!

 

[bugsymike]

Been like that for a few years now on many makes. I first came across it over in the States when I, unusually, hired a manual trans car. It was the only vehicle left at that depot, we were just off a trans Atlantic flight and very tired and two couples in front of us had just turned it down, With a two hour drive to my sister in front of us I almost fell over my own feet rushing up to the desk.



I still tend to do this if it's not causing great inconvenience to the folk behind me. I also, when safe to do so, will let drivers out of side turnings or turn across my front into a side road. Driving manners are very poor these days I find. Everyone is in too much of a hurry and courtesy almost non existent. Not many folk will now give a cheery wave when you've given way to them or obliged them in some other way. In fact I read the other day that police and the like consider you not to be fully in command of your vehicle if you give someone a wavy and might book you for it - Oh deary me!

So they can smoke weed in their car , be on their phones, have their children bouncing around with no restraint, but polite acknowledgement of another motorist is wrong!!!

 

[SB1500]

Britain's cheapest new cars 2024 | BuyaCar

www.buyacar.co.uk

Shocking stuff. £14k then for a new car on the cheap end. There's no way in a decade this should have literally doubled from the old Sandero and Suzuki Alto being small, basic, light but 'proper' cars for £6,000. Looking back a decade before that again... things hadn't risen so much.

Sort of nice to see the Sandero still there as the cheapest new car, though much less appealing at the price. Nice to see the Panda there, but not for much longer.

With the Panda gone, I think I'd go for the Sandero if I was limited to that list.

Still, shocking prices for the 'cheapest' cars. Something tells me the used car market will be most buyers first and only port of call, even if historically, the same folks went out and shopped the cheapest new cars of the past, when they were cheap.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Britain's cheapest new cars 2024 | BuyaCar

www.buyacar.co.uk

Shocking stuff. £14k then for a new car on the cheap end. There's no way in a decade this should have literally doubled from the old Sandero and Suzuki Alto being small, basic, light but 'proper' cars for £6,000. Looking back a decade before that again... things hadn't risen so much.

Sort of nice to see the Sandero still there as the cheapest new car, though much less appealing at the price. Nice to see the Panda there, but not for much longer.

With the Panda gone, I think I'd go for the Sandero if I was limited to that list.

Still, shocking prices for the 'cheapest' cars. Something tells me the used car market will be most buyers first and only port of call, even if historically, the same folks went out and shopped the cheapest new cars of the past, when they were cheap.

I looked at the Dacias when I was researching before buying the Skoda and I found much to like about them. Not such a nice drive as the Skoda though for me. What really put me off in the end though was the reports of timing chain problems and then seeing a report on a legal case being taken against Renault in France for all their engines which had failed in this way - same engine I understand. I'm talking petrol engines here. That was when the 1.2 engine was current. I see they now have a very similar looking 1.3 which is also chain driven but I don't know if the problem still exists with this variant.

 

[StevenRB45]

We looked at them during my dad's never ending car hunt...

They just aren't particularly nice and they aren't cheap enough now to be that unpleasant.

Will absolutely do the job but makes the C3 feel like a quality item..

Speaking of quality items..I'm half heartedly looking for cars I don't need to buy one until next year but I'm keeping an eye out to see if there's anything that catches my eye.

This did cos it's relevant to my interests, old enough not to be filled with all sorts of shite and new enough to have the bits I want..also quite reasonable in terms of price.

However...before I get excited about things I tend to check the MOT history to see what kind of life a car has lead.

You wat m8?

Mot fail at 6 years for corroded brake pipes...good old northern weather. NG would be a local car. Wonder what condition the rest of the underside is in.

Previous owner probably lived on Holy Island...

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

We looked at them during my dad's never ending car hunt...

They just aren't particularly nice and they aren't cheap enough now to be that unpleasant.

Will absolutely do the job but makes the C3 feel like a quality item..

Speaking of quality items..I'm half heartedly looking for cars I don't need to buy one until next year but I'm keeping an eye out to see if there's anything that catches my eye.

This did cos it's relevant to my interests, old enough not to be filled with all sorts of shite and new enough to have the bits I want..also quite reasonable in terms of price.

View attachment 451470

However...before I get excited about things I tend to check the MOT history to see what kind of life a car has lead.

View attachment 451471

You wat m8?

Mot fail at 6 years for corroded brake pipes...good old northern weather. NG would be a local car. Wonder what condition the rest of the underside is in.

Previous owner probably lived on Holy Island...

Probably give that one a by then?

I'm sort of half heartedly considering what to do when Becky becomes uneconomic to repair. There's a nice 2019 1.2 Panda Lounge in a big dealer's discount outlet near me with a claimed 23,000 miles on it which I think I'll take a look at. Still quite like the look of the Ignis too.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Probably give that one a by then?

I'm sort of half heartedly considering what to do when Becky becomes uneconomic to repair. There's a nice 2019 1.2 Panda Lounge in a big dealer's discount outlet near me with a claimed 23,000 miles on it which I think I'll take a look at. Still quite like the look of the Ignis too.

Crumbs, just spotted this one within easy driving distance

Auto Trader UK - New and Used Cars For Sale

Find your next car with Auto Trader UK, the official #1 site to buy and sell new and used cars. Over 400,000 cars online. Simple, easy, quick!

www.autotrader.co.uk

A bonny looking car. I even like the colour. At that age with that mileage I think a good look in the oil filler is called for! Probably needs a cam belt too due to age?

 

[porta]

I’m now tasked with finding a small car for the daughter’s boyfriend…decent small cars for small car money are incredibly difficult to find. His preferences were Honda, but not the jazz????, but anything Japanese…lots of cheapish first generation aygos and not much else that’s not rusty, banging it’s head off or gear issues. Decent jap jobs are silly money so gave him a list of ones found, so he said he’d consider a panda…
actually stood him in front of a panda 169, jazz, 2xAygo, (and a Peugeot 1007, same car), several fiesta (one is one before last and is in budget) and an Adam…apart from the fiesta, the panda is the most expensive! They’ve all got similar miles, within 18mths of each other and all look smartly presented…the jazz and panda are similarly equipped with 1.2 engines, the others are hair driers and I cannot fathom the pricing.

 

[StevenRB45]

Anything small and petrol is insanely priced and has been since after COVID. You pretty much can't buy most of them new as supplies stopped and many have gone off sale so the vast majority of them are quite rare beyond 2020 as manufacturers built more profitable models instead.

Also people are looking for cars to beat into the ground so Japanese tends to carry a premium and there's the joys of ulez expansions.

I'm looking for another family car so unfortunately can't trade in the C3 and take advantage of the fact it's barely depreciated 50% in 7 years. But at least bigger cars with a petrol engine are somewhat depressed in value by fuel prices at present...even if they do reasonable (to me) figures of low to mid 40s.

I'm trying to avoid buying an essssyouuuveee but need something I can launch child paraphernalia at.

That Panda looks lovely but the cost for a 5 year old Panda is insane.

 

[porta]

Anything small and petrol is insanely priced and has been since after COVID. You pretty much can't buy most of them new as supplies stopped and many have gone off sale so the vast majority of them are quite rare beyond 2020 as manufacturers built more profitable models instead.

Also people are looking for cars to beat into the ground so Japanese tends to carry a premium and there's the joys of ulez expansions.

I'm looking for another family car so unfortunately can't trade in the C3 and take advantage of the fact it's barely depreciated 50% in 7 years. But at least bigger cars with a petrol engine are somewhat depressed in value by fuel prices at present...even if they do reasonable (to me) figures of low to mid 40s.

I'm trying to avoid buying an essssyouuuveee but need something I can launch child paraphernalia at.

That Panda looks lovely but the cost for a 5 year old Panda is insane.

That’s just it, the panda is the second most expensive car after the fiesta on the lot. There seems to be no logic to it as they appeared to be in similar condition, the mileages on the tickets are within 5k of each other but the jap jobs are cheaper.
There are cheaper cars on the lot, mainly Kia and the 1007, but apart from the 1007, all have 1500cc or more, are bigger and not really suitable due to stupid rip off insurance