Technical Timing Belt Job SOS...

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

First port of call will be trying to see if the aux belt removed gets rid of the sound. Though I fear it might be like yours, with the noise coming from the timing belt. I definitely think the tensioner has something to do with it as I pretty much slid the old one off, and the new one on without really understanding the orientation / settings but now I have the photo above to refer to

I would have thought Gates kits would be up there with OEM, though none of us ever had this noise from new on the original parts so perhaps it's a side effect of the aftermarket bits

Sad to hear that even after 5 years the sound doesn't go away.

I will get to the bottom of it, even if it means buying an OEM kit and doing the job again - I was already a fan of genuine parts but this would cement that logic for good if it turns out to be the cause.

I've been thinking about the noise which Becky makes and there are a few things to say about it,

1) It does sound very like a tensioner bearing in the early stages of failure.

2) The noise can't be isolated using a stethoscope or "listening stick" in the traditional way, but is easily and quickly traced down with a "listening tube"

3) Gates is my favoured brand, luckily sold by my local factor, so I tend to use nothing else and find the quality second to none. As far as I can remember, I've never known one, or the included tensioner/water pump/etc, to fail in normal service.

4) Aye, it's strange, but the noise is really just the same now as when I fitted it. It did quieten down a little during the first couple of weeks after fitting but then settled down to about 75% of the original volume and has stayed the same ever since.

5) Most interesting of all perhaps? is that garages I'm friendly with tell me the noise Becky is making is not all that unusual. By no means do they all do it but it's a recognized thing with them - Seems you either get one that doesn't do it or you get one that does. The garage where I bought the car actually had a small Ford (Ka I seem to remember?) anyway, with the same engine in it and it was making exactly the same noise. Becky was making exactly the same noise when bought as she does now and I put a full kit in her ie. belt, tensioner, water pump.

6) The only thing I would say listening to yours is that it's quite a lot louder than either Becky's noise, the car which was in the garage I bought her from or any other ones I've heard when out and about in the street. Of course this may be due to the way your recording device is making it sound. I'd say Becky's, and others I've heard, is a noticeable noise but not intrusive - you have to listen quite hard to hear it inside the car with windows closed but once you know it's there you always are aware of it. Mrs J says she's no idea what I'm talking about - Noise? what noise? she says.

 

[SB1500]

I've been thinking about the noise which Becky makes and there are a few things to say about it,

1) It does sound very like a tensioner bearing in the early stages of failure.

3) Gates is my favoured brand, luckily sold by my local factor, so I tend to use nothing else and find the quality second to none. As far as I can remember, I've never known one, or the included tensioner/water pump/etc, to fail in normal service.

Ours is a very cheap kit, not genuine but not a 'good' brand like Gates - from what I always was led to believe, Gates is one of the best money can buy, it's their area of expertise. But even with our el cheapo kit, I suspected even a crap tensioner would last a few weeks at worst before failing

4) Aye, it's strange, but the noise is really just the same now as when I fitted it. It did quieten down a little during the first couple of weeks after fitting but then settled down to about 75% of the original volume and has stayed the same ever since.

I must get a drive in the Panda this weekend, it's my grandmothers car and she drives it no farther than 2 miles in either direction of her home so I doubt it'll have been driven enough for things to settle down (proper long journey / full heat up cycle / sustained loads).

5) Most interesting of all perhaps? is that garages I'm friendly with tell me the noise Becky is making is not all that unusual. By no means do they all do it but it's a recognized thing with them - Seems you either get one that doesn't do it or you get one that does. The garage where I bought the car actually had a small Ford (Ka I seem to remember?) anyway, with the same engine in it and it was making exactly the same noise. Becky was making exactly the same noise when bought as she does now and I put a full kit in her ie. belt, tensioner, water pump.

Yes, the second gen Ford Ka was basically the 500 / 169 Panda - but not sure if it had the later VVT interference version of the 1.2 FIRE engine or not. I was to say... 2010+ adopted this (?) but not sure myself

6) The only thing I would say listening to yours is that it's quite a lot louder than either Becky's noise, the car which was in the garage I bought her from or any other ones I've heard when out and about in the street. Of course this may be due to the way your recording device is making it sound. I'd say Becky's, and others I've heard, is a noticeable noise but not intrusive - you have to listen quite hard to hear it inside the car with windows closed but once you know it's there you always are aware of it. Mrs J says she's no idea what I'm talking about - Noise? what noise? she says.

I had the window open on my video, to make the noise heard better, but with the window shut, probably wouldn't be so intrusive. I took my grandmother for a quick drive in it and pointed it out to her, initially she didn't hear it also said 'what noise?' haha But by the end of the two minutes she was asking what the reason for it was, so sadly it was noticeable enough even to her :-( And although she'd not say so, I'd hate to think she'd be a little scared to drive it thinking it's on the verge of some big failure. Definitely going to get it back to the way it was one way or another for her.

I'm thinking Sunday this week.. trying the aux belt (fitting the new one at minimum) and seeing if that solves or changes the sound. I don't think it will be that easy though...

Then stripping it right down to the belts again, double checking the belt and amending the tensioner.. still haven't decided whether I should refit the original factory tensioner again though. I mean, do these really tend to fail or is it just a 'since you've got it stripped down, change it'. I know with water pumps, being so constantly used, the bearings legitimately do wear out, get noisy and leak and such - so I understand always doing those. Maybe the factory tensioner can solve this?

 

[The Panda Nut]

I was already a fan of genuine parts but this would cement that logic for good if it turns out to be the cause.

Me too that the last time anyone will fit aftermarket spares on the fleet without being told to do so. Im considering having the whole job done again even if pay

 

[vexorg]

I used a gates belt and no sound on ours afterwards

 

[The Panda Nut]

I've been thinking about the noise which Becky makes and there are a few things to say about it,

1) It does sound very like a tensioner bearing in the early stages of failure.

2) The noise can't be isolated using a stethoscope or "listening stick" in the traditional way, but is easily and quickly traced down with a "listening tube"

3) Gates is my favoured brand, luckily sold by my local factor, so I tend to use nothing else and find the quality second to none. As far as I can remember, I've never known one, or the included tensioner/water pump/etc, to fail in normal service.

4) Aye, it's strange, but the noise is really just the same now as when I fitted it. It did quieten down a little during the first couple of weeks after fitting but then settled down to about 75% of the original volume and has stayed the same ever since.

5) Most interesting of all perhaps? is that garages I'm friendly with tell me the noise Becky is making is not all that unusual. By no means do they all do it but it's a recognized thing with them - Seems you either get one that doesn't do it or you get one that does. The garage where I bought the car actually had a small Ford (Ka I seem to remember?) anyway, with the same engine in it and it was making exactly the same noise. Becky was making exactly the same noise when bought as she does now and I put a full kit in her ie. belt, tensioner, water pump.

6) The only thing I would say listening to yours is that it's quite a lot louder than either Becky's noise, the car which was in the garage I bought her from or any other ones I've heard when out and about in the street. Of course this may be due to the way your recording device is making it sound. I'd say Becky's, and others I've heard, is a noticeable noise but not intrusive - you have to listen quite hard to hear it inside the car with windows closed but once you know it's there you always are aware of it. Mrs J says she's no idea what I'm talking about - Noise? what noise? she says.

Mrs J. Well done, clearly a maid up member of the Fiat Forumer wives association. Our noise must be pretty bad as Mrs Panda Nut can actually hear it. LOL

 

[SB1500]

Okay... Good news! (It's not the Dacia Sandero..)

Spent this morning and afternoon with the Panda in the garage. I removed the auxiliary belt and tried to see if that solved the issue, no such luck but I was mentally prepared to strip it all down again. It wasn't such a long job knowing what to remove. I didn't need to remove the rocker cover gasket or anything like that. We marked the belt where it was with a paint marker to maintain the timing, which was correct.

It was the tensioner! We didn't have it set right at all and had moved it the wrong way to achieve tension. Massive thanks to @KPat for your photo, which immediately alerted us to what we'd done wrong. For a while we struggled to get the new tensioner set right, and I actually had went and got the original removed tensioner. We fitted that one (bearings in it were fine sounding still) and tinkered with it until we figured out the correct way to tension it, it was fiddly as tightening the nut was adding extra tension so we had to counteract that whilst ultimately getting the notches about 90% in line.

Built it back up, new (correct) auxiliary belt and it started like a dream, running like a clock like most 1.2 FIRE blocks. Theart, incorrect belt I had ordered fitted some sort of Honda / Toyota / Mazda car from the 90s... Absolutely no idea how this happened on AutoDoc, as any time in the past when I ordered the wrong part it was for the correct car but the wrong variant / engine. OR.. for one of the other cars in the family that I mistakenly used's VIN or saved profile on the account... Read some threads online about AutoDoc seemingly changing orders from the initial basket which is odd...anyone on here had that issue or am I going insane?

First Start after correction:


Running sound:


Then I did the brake fluid replacement, surprisingly the valve rubber caps and actual nuts came off fine despite never being touched in over 9 years. The fluid that came out visually looked the same, but I know this doesn't mean much. I didn't bother testing it as 9 years of heat cycles and pressure is surely more than enough to try squeeze additional usage period out of for all it costs / the little time it takes. Can't believe I was paying Toyota to do this on my Avensis! Much easier than I used to think.

I took the Panda for a drive in and out of the city then, across a good variety of hills / country roads / city roads and of course, the McDonald's drive through.. Brings back memories. I found the drive much more relaxing. When you're focussed on the road, as you should be, very little of the cars interior, controls or superficial aspects are noticeable or matter. Many, many more cars pulled out in front of me at most junctions / roundabouts but I wasn't taking off in a hurry, nor could I to be honest, and yet it was a relaxing, smooth drive. I dealt with the clutch / gears much smoother than last year when I took the car on a similar drive amidst considering trading in for a Panda - the Avensis and it's poor gearing in comparison must have interfered as this time I adapted fairly well, despite being accustomed to automatic driving. Such a great little car, and I can sleep at night knowing that I did a bit of service to it to keep it on the road for another 9 years wherever it ends up. No more guilt that I made it worse than it was before - all is right with the universe now! lol

Thanks to everyone who replied to this and my other thread re: service parts

 

[jackwhoo]

Tell autodoc to note your account that you do not want any part substitution . Really annoying .

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

@SB1500 Near as I can tell from your video playing back on my laptop that's pretty much what Becky sounds like. If you listen attentively you can still hear the slight noise. Mine is possibly just a smidgeon louder, but to all intents and purposes the same.

Edit. Well done on sorting it all out, it's such a relief when these things go well.

 

[vexorg]

Did you check the tension at the correct point when turning it over originally?
Usually the tension is only correct at the point everything is locked

 

[jackwhoo]

For anyone that really wants to know...... belt tension should be set once with a new belt , following manufacturer instructions , after a belt has been on a running engine (no matter how short a time running) the belt is no longer new and the belt tension should not be re-set.

 

[SB1500]

Did you check the tension at the correct point when turning it over originally?
Usually the tension is only correct at the point everything is locked

Originally (when I first did it last week) I just put the tensioner on without checking it / setting it correctly, I used the little tool in the timing kit (with the two dots) to turn it until I had what felt like suitably tight tension on the belt. I didn't pay attention to the little metal notches lining up as I should have which was certainly the issue causing the noise.

For anyone that really wants to know...... belt tension should be set once with a new belt , following manufacturer instructions , after a belt has been on a running engine (no matter how short a time running) the belt is no longer new and the belt tension should not be re-set.

I wish the belt / kit came with instructions! Or that I had eLearn for this model Panda to refer to (come to think of it, I should have endeavoured to find that anyway! The belt was fitted and running but it was either too tight (or too loose) because of how I had failed to correctly set up the little tensioner piece. I'm 100% that how it was corrected yesterday is how it's supposed to be now as the noise is gone. I think really it had to be corrected as it wasn't right. Even the old, 9 year old belt - overdue for replacement - wasn't stretched, or physically / visually appearing to be worn out - possibly due to the low mileage and probably [never] taken even as high as 60mph between my granny who owns it and my mum who'd drive it along with her. The two short drives from when I fitted the new belt to yesterday correcting the tensioner position won't have altered it in any material way that would have warranted buying another belt altogether. Had it been fitted wrong in a way that shredded it or pulled it in any majorly wrong path and physically damaged it, then of course I'd have had no choice but to replace it though

 

[jackwhoo]

Originally (when I first did it last week) I just put the tensioner on without checking it / setting it correctly, I used the little tool in the timing kit (with the two dots) to turn it until I had what felt like suitably tight tension on the belt. I didn't pay attention to the little metal notches lining up as I should have which was certainly the issue causing the noise.


I wish the belt / kit came with instructions! Or that I had eLearn for this model Panda to refer to (come to think of it, I should have endeavoured to find that anyway! The belt was fitted and running but it was either too tight (or too loose) because of how I had failed to correctly set up the little tensioner piece. I'm 100% that how it was corrected yesterday is how it's supposed to be now as the noise is gone. I think really it had to be corrected as it wasn't right. Even the old, 9 year old belt - overdue for replacement - wasn't stretched, or physically / visually appearing to be worn out - possibly due to the low mileage and probably [never] taken even as high as 60mph between my granny who owns it and my mum who'd drive it along with her. The two short drives from when I fitted the new belt to yesterday correcting the tensioner position won't have altered it in any material way that would have warranted buying another belt altogether. Had it been fitted wrong in a way that shredded it or pulled it in any majorly wrong path and physically damaged it, then of course I'd have had no choice but to replace it though

Hi, my post wasn't directed at you (-:
Posted on here due to apt cam belt thread. For anyone reading later.

Fitting instructions used to come with kits. Now Most often you have to scan a qr code from the box....even then instructions may be poor.

Currently SKF appear to have best instructions.

I would not worry about belt you fitted it is not highly stressed.

Best wishes

Jack

 

[SB1500]

Hi, my post wasn't directed at you (-:
Posted on here due to apt cam belt thread. For anyone reading later.

Fitting instructions used to come with kits. Now Most often you have to scan a qr code from the box....even then instructions may be poor.

Currently SKF appear to have best instructions.

I would not worry about belt you fitted it is not highly stressed.

Best wishes

Jack

ah I see


Tools I used, from memory:
- Jack
- Socket set 8mm, 10mm, 13mm, 15mm, 17mm extension bars (small, medium and large ratchet for access)
- Long pliers (handy for popping off plastic clips)
- Rubber gloves to put over connector plugs that hang when disconnected
- Screwdrivers (+ and -)
- Cheap Chinesium Fiat FIRE 1.2 timing locking kit (eBays finest)
- Paint marker (to mark spots on belt as a failsafe)
- Spare ring / hose clips (to replace broken off ones that don't come off easily)
- Scraper (to scrape off old rocker seal / gasket)
- Silicone sealant for fitting new water pump
- Container (to catch coolant falling out when old water pump removed)
- Syphon pump (to syphon out coolant from radiator, trust me, you don't want to deal with the L joint / hose ring clips)
- Autel OBD Scanner (to alert you to which, if any, sensors you forgot to re-connect)

^ in case that's of use to future DIYers on the forum

 

[A3jeroen]

Going through the MacD drive through is the best test

 

[The Panda Nut]

Our tensioner was changed to oem Fiat. Its no better after a few thousand miles. I now think its the cheap gates branded water pump. 99%. We will put up with it, but no more non Fiat parts going on anything that needs a strip down to get at them ever again. THE NOISE SPOILS WHAT WAS A QUIET MOTOR. its still silky smooth but whiney.

 

[SB1500]

Our tensioner was changed to oem Fiat. Its no better after a few thousand miles. I now think its the cheap gates branded water pump. 99%. We will put up with it, but no more non Fiat parts going on anything that needs a strip down to get at them ever again. THE NOISE SPOILS WHAT WAS A QUIET MOTOR. its still silky smooth but whiney.

I always thought Gates were one of those decent brands tbh! Then again, with windscreens, or even brake parts ... in my experience, every 'good' aftermarket brand probably supplies to a few big car makers factory production - but those batches / parts are on a completely different level to the stuff mass produced for years and shipped out to our local auto factors.

In my case my granny's Panda was extremely whiny and noisy as I detailed on this thread months ago. I also suspected it was the non genuine parts, but the tensioner just wasn't adequately tensioned / fitted correctly. It worked, but that little bit of non-fine tuning was enough to make it sound horrific. We did fit the OEM Fiat tensioner, for better or for worse, in fears that it was the part but I think the aftermarket one might have been fine, had it been adjusted, like we did with the OEM.

The tiny little notch / fiddly way of adjusting it and force needed makes this a nightmare, even though simple in theory. I think even experienced mechanics who work on a lot of cars could probably presume or overlook a specific little process like this, especially if the car starts up and drives. If your local mechanics are like mine, they will outright refuse to look into something as a noise on an older car, they'll constantly tell you 'I haven't gotten time to look at your car yet, been so busy' :-(