Technical The one and only Dualogic failure thread

[FiatTwinair]

Ok here an update about the fix I was so happy about. It lasted only 5000 km. After that the dualogic jammed again. But this time it was so that after 6 hours it was still jammed. After that it finally came out of neutral but I didn’t dare to use the fifth gear anymore. During the cleaning process off the solenoid I must honestly admit that the spring and the the small metal rectangle piece that is pushed by the solenoid and the spring had severely wear. The end of the black rectangle metal piece was sharp like and axe en was shining bright.

After changing the dualogic oil the first time, this was before the cleaning of the solenoid, it was very thick and black. The second time when I changed, after cleaning the solenoid, it was more liquid. I tested this time the drained fluid with a very strong magnet. A lot of metal particles stuck to it and this was at the second drain. You can imagine how bad it would we at the first time drain. So there is a lot of tear and wear inside the dualogic robot going on. Also shifting and grinding noises are all related to the dualogic. So in short the robot is not really tear and wear resistant.

So now and independent Fiat specialist said to me that the dualogic gearboxes before 2013 have only an lifespan of 10 years or 200000 km, after that the chances are high that you will encounter severe problems. The only solution is to replace the automatic gearbox completely. I did that. I am driving already 4000 km without issues. After I got the new one I felt the difference extremely. The old dualogic gearbox was really worn. You will feel that when you get a new one. Unfortuntaelly you will not get the version after 2013 because that is not compatible with previous fiat 500 models designed before 2013. So you will get the same dualogic gearbox with the design flaws. Hopefully it will last again 10 years or 200000 km.

 

[tod2024]

Hi, my mrs has a 2012 Fiat 500 1.2 dualogic automatic that's nearing 70k miles. Over the last year or so it's developed a growling kind of noise in first gear and second gear. It seems more noticeable in first gear. We're based in Ireland and I've called around some Fiat garages (as well as other garages) and none of them have heard of a 500 having any similar problems. A few of them said to drop it in for a diagnostic but it would be likely the transmission would need to come out and be serviced/reconditioned. I did a little research here and online in general and some have recommended topping up or changing out the transmission fluid as a starting point to see if that helps. It sounds like a more measured approach and a reasonable first step. Just wondering if anyone has ever heard of this problem before or have even had this problem before? And what was the fix? Also, just to add... the car is driving fine. It's selecting and going into gear like it always had. There's no loss of power or any other noticeable symptoms other than the noise in the low gears. Thanks in advance for the help. Appreciated.

Edit: Just to add some more information: The car has just had a pre NCT check and all rubbers, bearings, tyres, pads, discs and so on seem to be fine. No noise other than the growling when in first gear. I did have a look under the bonnet and on the right side there seems to be a small oil leak or seepage in an area underneath the battery tray. It's nothing major and not enough to drip onto the ground. The car is parked in the same place all the time and there's no oil on the ground. But there is a bit of oil and then some oil that has dried out and soaked into the dust if that makes sense. The oil leak/seepage seems to be on top of the engine part that sits underneath the battery tray though. I can't really see it properly but it's strange that a leak/seepage would leak upwards rather than down!

Just an update on my original post as it may help future readers. The problem was the input shaft bearing in the gearbox. I had it done with a gearbox outfit who replaced bearings, seals etc... along dropping in a new clutch while they were at it for €1200 total in Ireland. The noise is gone now and the drive is buttery smooth. Apparently, it's a common enough problem. The gearbox guys said they do a good amount of the same repair every year. Mrs is going to keep the car for another few months and then get rid. She's going to Toyota. Thanks everyone for the help and advice. Very much appreciated.

 

[Marco lima]

SELESPEED DROPPING INTO NEUTRAL AFTER BRAKING AND SLOWING DOWN FROM 5th.
Hello there, first post!
a few months ago I bought a 2010 1.2 500 automatic, for the mrs....she has severe anxiety problems and has fear to drive, so I thought and auto would help. and she loved it.
When I bought the car to a private individual, I did an extensive test drive, and everything was ok, bought it and drove 130kms home with a smile on my face. A few days after, car jumped into neutral and I thought it was me doing something wrong (never drove an automatic before). Took it to a FIAT dealership nearby (AMF, in portugal, and I DO NOT reccomend it). Asked for a full service and scan, they told me they calibrated the Selespeed and everything was ok with the car. A couple of days later the problem resumed. After looking online for answers I assumed it was the fluid level, went back and asked for a Selespeed oil change or fill up , they said they did it and if the problem happened again, it would need a new gearbox for 2000euro plus labor.
the day after it happened again, took it to a nearby mechanic and found out that they DID NOT check the fluid as it was SUPER LOW.
topped the fluid with tutela cs speed. drove fine for some days and jumped into neutral. purchased alfaOBD app and did the calibration procedure, drove fine for the most part until the problem came back.
It does not happen every time, and I cannot replicate the fault easily...
When in 5th gear, and stop quickly, it jumps into neutral,
No error codes.
Any idea? thanks

 

[rmjbn1]

SELESPEED DROPPING INTO NEUTRAL AFTER BRAKING AND SLOWING DOWN FROM 5th.
Hello there, first post!
a few months ago I bought a 2010 1.2 500 automatic, for the mrs....she has severe anxiety problems and has fear to drive, so I thought and auto would help. and she loved it.
When I bought the car to a private individual, I did an extensive test drive, and everything was ok, bought it and drove 130kms home with a smile on my face. A few days after, car jumped into neutral and I thought it was me doing something wrong (never drove an automatic before). Took it to a FIAT dealership nearby (AMF, in portugal, and I DO NOT reccomend it). Asked for a full service and scan, they told me they calibrated the Selespeed and everything was ok with the car. A couple of days later the problem resumed. After looking online for answers I assumed it was the fluid level, went back and asked for a Selespeed oil change or fill up , they said they did it and if the problem happened again, it would need a new gearbox for 2000euro plus labor.
the day after it happened again, took it to a nearby mechanic and found out that they DID NOT check the fluid as it was SUPER LOW.
topped the fluid with tutela cs speed. drove fine for some days and jumped into neutral. purchased alfaOBD app and did the calibration procedure, drove fine for the most part until the problem came back.
It does not happen every time, and I cannot replicate the fault easily...
When in 5th gear, and stop quickly, it jumps into neutral,
No error codes.
Any idea? thanks

Hi and welcome. Is this post any help?

The one and only Dualogic failure thread | FIAT 500 (2007+)

Unless you know they were using Fiat specific software I’d be reluctant to pull out the gearbox. Find a Dualogic specialist near to you.

www.fiatforum.com

 

[Marco lima]

Hi and welcome. Is this post any help?

The one and only Dualogic failure thread | FIAT 500 (2007+)

Unless you know they were using Fiat specific software I’d be reluctant to pull out the gearbox. Find a Dualogic specialist near to you.

www.fiatforum.com

might be! thanks!

 

[Marco lima]

So, there are some updates, haven't taken the car to the shop yet (waiting on parts for my van), but developed stranger issues, yesterday the car wouldn't engage 1st, 3rd or 5th gear, drove it in 2nd/4th for 5 minutes and it all started working again, like it needed the oil to warm up and get thinner. For the first time got the gearbox light and beep, ran the alfaobd app scan and gave me two errors, P1471and P2915. tried to test the clutch solenoid, heard it moving but the test came to a fail.
any ideas? I think I might need a selespeed rebuild...any clues on where to find a seal/potentiometer kit in Europe? thanks

 

[jackwhoo]

So, there are some updates, haven't taken the car to the shop yet (waiting on parts for my van), but developed stranger issues, yesterday the car wouldn't engage 1st, 3rd or 5th gear, drove it in 2nd/4th for 5 minutes and it all started working again, like it needed the oil to warm up and get thinner. For the first time got the gearbox light and beep, ran the alfaobd app scan and gave me two errors, P1471and P2915. tried to test the clutch solenoid, heard it moving but the test came to a fail.
any ideas? I think I might need a selespeed rebuild...any clues on where to find a seal/potentiometer kit in Europe? thanks

What is the number for clutch degradation index from scan tool?

 

[savasb]

Hello guys
I am driving a 1.3 diesel 95hp punto evo. Everything was fine, I was driving and I put it into manual mode but I left it in manual and it had to change gear down itself because I had to brake. And now when I am parking or at a red light, it jumps into neutral from 1 or R and starts beeping. No issues while driving. or when I start accelerating. please help

Edit: I realized Now I can feel the gear change for example I feel the jump from N to 1 and N- to R or 1. Could it be clutch?

 

[Aleexc]

Hi everyone
I have a fiat idea 1.4 16v with the dualogic gearbox
It works great except for one single problem
I try to explain the best way I can maybe someone had this before…I searched the post but couldn’t find anything solid sorry if I missed it.
The robot loses pressure while engine is on/driving or idling but not when engine off and key on I have to say o tested everything I’m saying here with my laptop with the scan tool
So
When engine is off the clutch rod value is at 21.6 mm and pressure is dropping for 0.1 every few seconds so noting really
When engine is on and idling the clutch value drops to 11.something and the pressure drops so fast that the pump runs every 7 seconds
Like 50 bar 47 45 43 40 39 pump stars really fast a few seconds like I said

My logic tells me that when the engine is off the clutch is not depressed and no pressure is lost because no oil goes nowhere
When engine is on and the clutch depressed (because i believe the car is waiting for a comand) these test are done while idling in neutral so I don’t even know if the clutch should be depressed since the car is in neutral and stationary but anyway once the engine is started the clutch is definitely depressed and oil flows like crazy
I believe this might have something to do with some seals around the clutch rod? Or some other valve?
This is the only problem I have with it
So if anyone can help me out thanks a million

1 is my problem clutch rod seals or some other valve that can cause this problem only when engine is running
2 should the clutch be depressed like while idling in neutral?

Thanks a lot ohh btw the car is an 06 fiat idea

 

[jackwhoo]

agree with your logic and have read somewhere the clutch is pressed when engine running with transmition in neutral.

I have no information on clutch seals etc.

Have a think about accumulator , is it ok?

Good luck.

Let us know if you fix problem.

 

[Aleexc]

Hi yes the acumulator I think it’s ok because if I go from neutral to first and reverse with engine off it only uses about 3 bars so for example from 50 bar one gear change drops to 47 more or less that would imply that from 50 to 39 would allow 3-4 gear changes which I think it’s ok .
I can’t test this with engine on because the oil just keeps flowing ,it all go back to the oil reservoir through that small return hose at the top,with engine on if I look from the bottom I can see oil literally streaming back to the reservoir.
I think the way it’s supposed to work is when the clutch it’s pressed oil should no go back to the reservoir until it’s depressed while on mine it’s just going past while keeping the piston under pressure and the pump just keeps starting to maintain. I just wonder if this is down to a seal somewhere around the clutch piston or is there some other valve that’s stuck open or something…
I don’t really want to fully disassemble the robot since I don’t have any spare o rings and sometimes the old ones won’t seal after reassemble
And the good but annoying thing is there is absolutely nothing wrong with the car .drives very smooth changes gears perfectly no codes on diagnostics nothing
Only that the pump it’s basically running non stop while driving

I will take the robot off the car at some point and try to remove the clutch rod and piston and see what’s inside I did take it off before and clean it but never took it apart maybe there is some sort of orings in there that I can change

 

[Saulo tarcio]

So, there are some updates, haven't taken the car to the shop yet (waiting on parts for my van), but developed stranger issues, yesterday the car wouldn't engage 1st, 3rd or 5th gear, drove it in 2nd/4th for 5 minutes and it all started working again, like it needed the oil to warm up and get thinner. For the first time got the gearbox light and beep, ran the alfaobd app scan and gave me two errors, P1471and P2915. tried to test the clutch solenoid, heard it moving but the test came to a fail.
any ideas? I think I might need a selespeed rebuild...any clues on where to find a seal/potentiometer kit in Europe? thanks

I have the same problem.
Did u solve the problem?

 

[Nuforce]

I recently took my wife's dialogic 500c to a Fiat specialist due to the dreaded slip into neutral when driving issues.

He did a full diagnostic and test using the correct software and checked the hydrologic fluid levels. All ok. He said it was probably due to the car barely being used by the previous owner. Weirdly there were no fault codes logged.

Anyway my wife reports her car slipped into neutral whilst driving today so back to the drawing board...

I'm wondering if I should ask him to replace the actuator with a new one?? Or I might just cough up £600 and buy a brand new dualogic unit.

Hydraulic Unit Automatic Gearbox Selespeed Fiat 500 Panda Punto Lancia Ypsilo | eBay

Hydraulic unit automatic gearbox Selespeed Fiat 500 Panda Punto Lancia Ypsilon hydraulic unit Selespeed automatic gearbox Magneti Marelli AMTK008 023000007010 Suitable for the following vehicles: fiat 500 panda Punto style Lancia Musa Upsilon Please compare the part number! Fiat...

www.ebay.co.uk

 

[Franklux]

Please remove any doubts for me. My wife drives a 2012 Abarth 500C Esseesse. Its done about 90k KM and we are dow experiencing difficulty selecting gears. Have to keep switching between 1,n and R until it finally selects 1 or R and then its ok.
Only thing i would like to know is:
Does selespeed=MTA=Dualogic? If so theres a ton of info on the alfaowners forum.

 

[A3jeroen]

AFAIK it'is exactly the same.

gr J

 

[FiatTwinair]

I see that a lot of people are still panicking when their Dualogic system does strange things. There are only 3 things you can do yourself! 1. Changing the fluid in the reservoir, 2. cleaning the solenoids, 3 cleaning the electrical connectors. If these 3 things don't work. Just do yourself a favor and buy a new dualogic. Don't spend any money on it trying to repair it. It is just postponing execution, till your system will stop working completely. The golden rule is: If you have a Dualogic system be prepared to spend 2000 euro for a new system, if you don't then don't buy a dualogic system. They are not durable and that is a fact. All those dualogic like system like SMG by BMW , Ferrari F1 system, selespeed by Alfa, Cambiocorsa by masserati, Easytronic by opel. They are all based on the same principle and they all suck and fail over time. Fiat is the cheapest to replace though, the other ones are more expensive because of their name. There are allready 44 pages written about the dualogic system and hardly anybody has a durable solution. All those dealership software updates and callibrations are a big scam just to rip you off. At the end you need to replace your system anyway. Many problems are related to the dualogic system, like stuck in gear, shifting into neutral, slipping when you are before a trafic light, grinding when you shift into reverse, delay in shifting from 1 to R or the other way, leaking, not engaging gear at all, pressure loss, bad shifting. I am so sorry that I am so negative but unfortunatelly I have to say the truth in order to warn other people from these kind of automatic gearboxes and prevent having false hope to repair the system cheaply. If my dualogic will give me just the slightest problem, even though I replaced the whole system, I will just ditch the whole car. No way I will spend more money on it and making Fiat rich for developing a bad product.

 

[Nuforce]

My wife's 500C is booked in with CD Motors in Stoke on Trent for a brand new, replacement dualogic system. £1860 including fitting and VAT and a 1 year warranty. I only paid £3500 for the car so I can justify it, especially as I fixed the misfire issues myself.

My wife has finally gotten into driving and loves her little car but as the weather has gotten colder and due to her particular driving style, she is finding it slipping into neutral a lot.

£1860 is a bargain for peace of mind knowing it will never happen again.

CD Motors have amazing knowledge of the dualogic system and explained all my options including going the refurbished route. I decided to go full replacement.

As for those suggesting selling on cars knowingly displaying this dangerous issue, shame on you! Get it fixed or if you can't justify it, scrap it.

 

[Franklux]

I see that a lot of people are still panicking when their Dualogic system does strange things. There are only 3 things you can do yourself! 1. Changing the fluid in the reservoir, 2. cleaning the solenoids, 3 cleaning the electrical connectors. If these 3 things don't work. Just do yourself a favor and buy a new dualogic. Don't spend any money on it trying to repair it. It is just postponing execution, till your system will stop working completely. The golden rule is: If you have a Dualogic system be prepared to spend 2000 euro for a new system, if you don't then don't buy a dualogic system. They are not durable and that is a fact. All those dualogic like system like SMG by BMW , Ferrari F1 system, selespeed by Alfa, Cambiocorsa by masserati, Easytronic by opel. They are all based on the same principle and they all suck and fail over time. Fiat is the cheapest to replace though, the other ones are more expensive because of their name. There are allready 44 pages written about the dualogic system and hardly anybody has a durable solution. All those dealership software updates and callibrations are a big scam just to rip you off. At the end you need to replace your system anyway. Many problems are related to the dualogic system, like stuck in gear, shifting into neutral, slipping when you are before a trafic light, grinding when you shift into reverse, delay in shifting from 1 to R or the other way, leaking, not engaging gear at all, pressure loss, bad shifting. I am so sorry that I am so negative but unfortunatelly I have to say the truth in order to warn other people from these kind of automatic gearboxes and prevent having false hope to repair the system cheaply. If my dualogic will give me just the slightest problem, even though I replaced the whole system, I will just ditch the whole car. No way I will spend more money on it and making Fiat rich for developing a bad product.

OOOff - not on the fence then? Wife's 500C Abarth SS has been going since 2012 - thats 12 years and only showing problems now. Low milage but most of that has been stop/start city driving with the MTA going up and down the gears more often than a 'prostitutes knickers'! As an engineer i will have a go at fixing it. If I fail, I'll buy a new one. I do agree with your comment about not making Fiat rich though - is why I do all my repairs and servicing myself....

 

[justinsignsau]

Hi everyone

Posted on a technical thread and they suggested to post over here

--------------------------------

I have a 2016 Doblo with a 263 plate, currently 135k km and started having some issues
1.6 ltr TD selespeed / dualogic transmission

One day the transmission light came up, so I turned the car off and tried to restart where I couldnt move it from neutral.

I had the following codes after a scan:
P0748
P1810

After taking it to a transmission specialist, the clutch and flywheel needed replacing so I approved those works.
They couldnt get it to relearn the clutch position ( not sure what that means exactly ) and after further investigation they have found the actuator is stuck in an engaged position and suggested putting a reconditioned one in as there are no new parts in the country - I am based in Australia

To say I was floored by what they want to charge is an understatement.

Is this part an easy change over that can be done by anyone or does it require a fiat / transmission specialist?

If this can be changed easily, I am guessing my only hurdle would be getting it to relearn the clutch position as I dont have the software to do this.

My FIL is a retired mechanic, so we are looking at different avenues

 

[jrkitching]

Hello and welcome to the forum.

Posted on a technical thread and they suggested to post over here

Actually your post belongs in this thread - the other one is for known verified soultions to dualogic problems.

Sorry to hear you're having problems with your dualogic. This won't be much comfort, but at 135k km it's actually covered more kms than a lot of the car transmissions.

If the actuator is giving problems, then fitting a reconditioned actuator would indeed sound like the most appropriate way forward.

The transmission will need to be recalibrated in software afterwards; my understanding is that MES can do this. If you're going to maintain this vehicle yourself, then it's well worth having and if you can find a laptop to run it on (even a windows XP laptop will do), it won't break the bank.

To say I was floored by what they want to charge is an understatement.

How much are they quoting you?

In the UK, I'd expect somewhere like CD motors would charge around £1600 to supply and fit a reconditioned actuator.

Seal kits are available on ebay for around £200, and there are a few companies that advertise they will recondition your own actuator for about £600.

I don't know what equivalent services are available in Australia; perhaps others based there can help.

If you fancy having a go yourself, then removing the actuator, reconditioning with new seals, refitting and recalibrating shouldn't break the bank - and then we'd love you to come back and tell us in the other thread how you did it! It ought to be possible to get a seal kit posted to Australia, though anything larger might be problematic.