General Here it is, officially the new Panda

[AndyRKett]

Well look at it this way...

Since I ended the finance on the C3 in 2020...it's done 32k miles which at an average of 35 mph is 38 full days listening to 3 cylinder noises.

That's a long time to listen to anything...and far longer if you find the noise unpleasant.

Look at it like not tuning into radio stations that play songs you don't like rather than a hobby

I perfectly sensible way of looking at it.

Most modern diesels are exceptionally quiet, those designed since the mid to late 2000s are run through computer programs to work out where vibrations might occur and sound generated before a single piece of metal is cast. thats why modern engines can seem to have random bits of plastic bolted to them to deaden sound in that area, found on diesels and petrols.

So for the most part the sound of a diesel engine is not intrusive at all. I don't notice the engine of my VW at all even with the roof down you get more sound from the heater fan.

That being said the likes of the Punto Evo with its very unrefined 1.6TD was very loud, very intrusive and sounded like a van from the inside and the outside, so its not all diesels, but they have come a long way.

 

[StevenRB45]

I think when you're talking about something like the Panda though..or your old Punto NVH budget is low you will hear what is under the bonnet and it does set the character and tone of the car.

While I'm not going to be the guy saying "electric cars have no character" a large part of the character of ours and very probably the new Panda as well is the powertrain for better or worse.

You will hear it...so it's better it sounds a bit cheeky/fun rather than industrial.

That and given the hybrid powertrain is capable of mid 40s in something as large as grandland in smaller car you'll be in the 50s removing the need for diesel.

 

[AndyRKett]

That and given the hybrid powertrain is capable of mid 40s in something as large as grandland in smaller car you'll be in the 50s removing the need for diesel.

I think there are hardly any diesels available now, i know there are still cases such as with Citroen that you can find a diesel engine option here or there, but its very much like the 90s again where they would offer the odd diesel but they were never the main stream. A friend of mine sent me a link for a mk1 Punto 60TD the other day, which was in Scotland, Think Edinburgh so probably a rust bucket but it actually still had its number plate from the Fiat dealer in Norwich and was a norwich Plate. anyway. They were rare back in the day, I can't image there are many diesel mk1 puntos at all now. as it was very cheap it will probably end up driven into the ground but it was the absolute base spec model, and not worth anything or even desirable.

The thing with small cheap cars is the lack of insulation and sound proofing so you are much more likely to spend your time listening to it.

with bigger cars they tend to put more sound proofing in and so the higher end and larger the car, the less the engine sound becomes an issue.

The Rolls Royce way is that you should never hear the engine. Was rather weird to see Tavarish Reving the absolute nuts out of his Wraith recently in a video. you just don't do that to a Rolla.

 

[Bonefish Blues]

I thought that the 3 in a Daewoo Matiz was quite a characterful little thing when I had one as a courtesy car bitd. 52bhp, I read. Thrusty it wasn't, but no matter, it got along OK.

 

[Bonefish Blues]

I think there are hardly any diesels available now, i know there are still cases such as with Citroen that you can find a diesel engine option here or there, but its very much like the 90s again where they would offer the odd diesel but they were never the main stream. A friend of mine sent me a link for a mk1 Punto 60TD the other day, which was in Scotland, Think Edinburgh so probably a rust bucket but it actually still had its number plate from the Fiat dealer in Norwich and was a norwich Plate. anyway. They were rare back in the day, I can't image there are many diesel mk1 puntos at all now. as it was very cheap it will probably end up driven into the ground but it was the absolute base spec model, and not worth anything or even desirable.

The thing with small cheap cars is the lack of insulation and sound proofing so you are much more likely to spend your time listening to it.

with bigger cars they tend to put more sound proofing in and so the higher end and larger the car, the less the engine sound becomes an issue.

The Rolls Royce way is that you should never hear the engine. Was rather weird to see Tavarish Reving the absolute nuts out of his Wraith recently in a video. you just don't do that to a Rolla.

Neighbour just got himself a Mazda CX60 SUV with a diesel 6 and a lovely thing it is too.

 

[AndyRKett]

Neighbour just got himself a Mazda CX60 SUV with a diesel 6 and a lovely thing it is too.

They are still about, but you have to search out the models that come with a diesel option rather than it being something that all cars come with a diesel option.

I suspect the CX is a very nice car.
I spent a long time following a new Tiguan last night which still comes with a TDI option

 

[StevenRB45]

They are still about, but you have to search out the models that come with a diesel option rather than it being something that all cars come with a diesel option.

I suspect the CX is a very nice car.
I spent a long time following a new Tiguan last night which still comes with a TDI option

Mazda diesels are generally lucky to see 10 years old without Major surgery unfortunately. Lovely to drive, far nicer than most diesels in that they are free revving with a wide torque band but a bit Puretech.

The 2.2 Skyactiv D is best described as an adventure, it was nice of them to include a weak top and bottom end and a slightly brittle twin turbo set up in one engine. Then of course the usual DPF, and SCR and DMF issues..

It means most owners get to experience one of the possible failures and really lucky ones get all of them..

The 6 might be better but they had 2 cracks at the 2.2 and neither was particularly robust...and the amount of emissions gear needed to pass euro 7 probably guarantees it'll be one to avoid out of warranty.

 

[SB1500]

Mazda's new diesel will school the German's... 40% thermal efficiency.

Without overbearing government legislation forcing the hand of research and development, companies like Mazda and Toyota can take a truly flexible / exploratory approach to all sorts of different powertrain / fuel sources / solutions...

Mazda announces low emission in-line six-cylinder diesel engine for Mazda CX-60

I was shocked to find that the Japanese out of everyone were seriously working on a 'next generation' diesel after its biggest fan (us Europeans) have bid farewell to it :O

 

[StevenRB45]

The efficiency isn't the problem, their last few engines have been for them Junk. I had a 1.6 petrol....the only known way to kill it was not service it for about 5 years.

The Skyactiv X petrol is very efficient but also another very complicated unit.

It could be said one of the main reasons for considering electric cars is modern combustion cars are so complicated to achieve emissions targets that they cannot work reliably for long periods of time without large amounts of specialist maintenance.

Take the new Panda...it's going to have, in no particular order, variable cycle engine (miller or Otto) variable vane turbo, dual vvt, dual variable coolant pumps, variable oil pump, dual clutch gearbox, electric motor, battery, and ecu to control it all, high and low pressure fuel pumps, stop/start, direct high pressure fuel injection, a catalyst, a GPF. And thats a cheap simple car...

Um... good luck with any car like that at 10 years old. I'm sure it'll be lovely new...but I like PSA and I'd not look at one past 2 or 3 years old.

 

[DaveMcT]

Diesels have suffered from a bodge and patch approach to emissions control. New engines should solve that especially if they get to secondary pistons to extract more energy (aka five stroke). A properly designed DPF should not need an EGR as well. Removing the latter will immediately cut the work a DPF has to do. Coupled to a serial hybrid would stop the black smoke on acceleration as the engine would never need to power up quickly.

 

[SB1500]

Diesels have suffered from a bodge and patch approach to emissions control. New engines should solve that especially if they get to secondary pistons to extract more energy (aka five stroke). A properly designed DPF should not need an EGR as well. Removing the latter will immediately cut the work a DPF has to do. Coupled to a serial hybrid would stop the black smoke on acceleration as the engine would never need to power up quickly.

Do you think there will be a future for diesels in passenger cars going forward? Maybe diesel hybrids of some kind seeing as so far, hybrids seem to be the only real solution to move us forward that we have

 

[StevenRB45]

The old one is officially dead...

Fiat Panda off sale in UK after 12 years | Autocar

Small hatchback was one of the nation’s cheapest cars, at £14,750; will be replaced by Grande Panda

www.autocar.co.uk

Apparently they've been selling just over 1000 a year in the UK for the last 4 years and I'd bet 90% of that was pre-reg.

That ratio business makes interesting reading...it explains some of the pricing of EVs I've been seeing.

Let's just say 21990 for a new EV when the C3 arrives isn't exactly that good a deal when you see what you can get for a fiver more.

 

[AndyRKett]

Apparently they've been selling just over 1000 a year in the UK for the last 4 years and I'd bet 90% of that was pre-reg.

Back when I bought my Golf in 2015, VW was selling about 1000 Golf Cabriolet's a year, which was a highly prices (compared to other golfs) niche model and made in a factory what was specifically designed to make the niche models of the VAGroup

With having to make UK cars right hand drive, the UK panda was in effect its own very specialized model, and given that VW killed the Golf Cab in 2016 because of low sales, its amazing to think Fiat carried on trying to sell the panda in the UK with such low sales figures for so long.

That being said I think Fiat have only been selling ~4k cars a year in the uk for the last few years so 1000 panda's represented a big percentage of the company's sales.

I can genuinely see Fiat focus on their strongest market's such as Turkey, brazil and other developing countries in africa and asia. There is no strong reason for them to try and improve sales in the UK with other much more profitable markets.

 

[Bonefish Blues]

That being said I think Fiat have only been selling ~4k cars a year in the uk for the last few years so 1000 panda's represented a big percentage of the company's sales.

A few more, based on the article:

The number of examples left is surely severely limited, as fewer than 5000 Pandas have left showrooms across the nation since 2020.

Some 70,000 Fiat 500s were sold over the same period, of which 60,000 were of the older combustion-engined type.

 

[AndyRKett]

A few more, based on the article:

The number of examples left is surely severely limited, as fewer than 5000 Pandas have left showrooms across the nation since 2020.

Some 70,000 Fiat 500s were sold over the same period, of which 60,000 were of the older combustion-engined type.

i was completely out then, no idea where I got that 4k figure from perhaps that was per qtr ?

still 5k cars in 4 years is pretty terrible, I am actually surprised at how high the 500 figure is, I suspect that has severely dropped off in the last year or so with all the Fiat dealers closing down.

 

[Bonefish Blues]

i was completely out then, no idea where I got that 4k figure from perhaps that was per qtr ?

still 5k cars in 4 years is pretty terrible, I am actually surprised at how high the 500 figure is, I suspect that has severely dropped off in the last year or so with all the Fiat dealers closing down.

Whatever the precise trajectory, it isn't going to be upwards, for sure! (And 70K 500s in 4-5 years is, in car sales terms, naff all. The BMW 3 series sold over 150k last year alone)

 

[SB1500]

The news here is that it's no longer for sale in the UK. As far as I'm aware, the current Panda will continue production for Europe for another good few years yet... as the Pandina. Shame as I thought we'd see those on our roads alongside the new Grande model.

Given they sold it for £14,000 in the UK, it's no wonder they didn't sell. Totally stupid price point, I love the Panda, but it's not a £14,000 car - not by a long shot. Not even with the inflation in recent years.

Contrast that with a frequent offer they have in Italy, where it's 9,950 EUR - that's ~£8,475 in proper money. If we had them for that price, rest assured, they would be selling here just as they do on the continent.

No modern assembly line, particularly one that has been running since 2011 is incurring any significant cost for as minor a change as RHD... especially with how straightforward Fiat's RHD modifications are compared to other manufacturers. They're not losing money on each Panda sold, I feel like that much is obvious looking at the RRP and the spec list.

The UK is one of the most lucrative car markets. We're the third biggest importers of cars after the US and the CCP, given our tiny geography compared to them that's one market Fiat don't want to lose. A few years ago, the data also showed that all of the big German car makers, after Germany, exported more of their cars to the UK than any other EU market.

Cars like the upcoming Panda and future 500 models, if priced properly in the market going forward, will remain stylish sought after and relatively simple cars for decades to come. I doubt much has changed in the consumers mind that will put them off it. Even if they are Peugeot's underneath... :'-(

 

[StevenRB45]

The ratio of Electric to combustion 500s makes sense why they would reverse engineer the E to sell more cars although given the target market you'd hope making the 500e cheaper would actually bridge a lot of the gap...as who is buying a 500 to do anything other to go round town most of time for which the range is sufficient. It was just priced at a ridiculous level at launch.

Whatever the precise trajectory, it isn't going to be upwards, for sure! (And 70K 500s in 4-5 years is, in car sales terms, naff all. The BMW 3 series sold over 150k last year alone)

Seem to remember it's poor figure for a single variant of a model never mind a whole model.

If you picked any one of the Fiesta STs (1 2 or 3) they all would have outsold the entire Fiat range..and still culled.

 

[Bonefish Blues]

The news here is that it's no longer for sale in the UK. As far as I'm aware, the current Panda will continue production for Europe for another good few years yet... as the Pandina. Shame as I thought we'd see those on our roads alongside the new Grande model.

Article linked above also said:

The Panda will remain available on the continent until the end of the decade, owing to its continued strong sales.

 

[SB1500]

Article linked above also said:

The Panda will remain available on the continent until the end of the decade, owing to its continued strong sales.

Yes, but any forum readers reading the post where it was linked might otherwise think that the model is actually dead as in, not in production anywhere. Important distinction. The title does indeed reference off the sale in the UK, but a UK publication / any publication could title it the same even if it were a complete end of production in other markets too. You know what the media is like nowadays with clickbait titles and the like.

...I wonder if given the Italian price being so much closer to earth, if it's actually cheaper to import a new one from there and still end up cheaper... steering wheel on the wrong side probably wouldn't be worth it mind you hahaha