Here it is, officially the new Panda

[portland_bill]

Well, the DS3 and 208 have historically had 'hot hatch' performance variants. Maybe in the near future, we'll get a hot Grande Panda with Abarth level specs? An Abarth Panda?

Like you've always hoped for?

A 3-cyl engine sounds good when worked hard.

 

[The Panda Nut]

Well, the DS3 and 208 have historically had 'hot hatch' performance variants. Maybe in the near future, we'll get a hot Grande Panda with Abarth level specs? An Abarth Panda?

Like you've always hoped for?

I think they want it to be the bottom of the pile so maybe not likely. It might need quite a bit of additional fettling to make the handling work. But, you never know.

 

[vexorg]

A 3-cyl engine sounds good when worked hard.

No it doesn't, more like a lawnmower!
Out of all the engines, three cylinders sound bad as they are designed for cheapness and economy.

 

[SB1500]

No it doesn't, more like a lawnmower!
Out of all the engines, three cylinders sound bad as they are designed for cheapness and economy.

I agree that our old 1.0 2004 Corsa (which sounded like a diesel) and my mums equally dreadfully built 1.0 208 sounded like you were hurting it by driving it. But there are good sounding 3 cylinders too:



It’s a new era and a much bigger, longer term thinking company now. PSA never competed with Toyota on reliability or were capable of a car like that… but now who knows, perhaps they have a new fire in them for the future and can finally start putting in some Toyota and VW level ‘global player’ investment into R&D. Anything’s possible

 

[StevenRB45]

No it doesn't, more like a lawnmower!
Out of all the engines, three cylinders sound bad as they are designed for cheapness and economy.

Nah 4 cylinder diesel is just the noise of disappointment.

At least a 3 sounds plucky...I am yet to hear a 4 cylinder diesel that sounds good. They can be made to be quiet, they can be made to blend into the back ground but they cannot be made to sound tuneful. Which most engines can...4 cylinder petrol on throttle bodies eg.

 

[vexorg]

Nah 4 cylinder diesel is just the noise of disappointment.

The one in mine is nice for a diesel, is more of a low rumble than the usual clattery diesel.

Whereas the fiat tipo I had, that was a nasty sounding diesel, like a tractor, but ran well and flawlessly

 

[StevenRB45]

Oh they work but having had both petrol and diesel fours for many years..

A 3 turbo sounds nicer than a 4 cylinder turbo as standard, 4 cylinder is just a drone with it's 90 degree firing order separation while the 3 sounds like a 6...but with half as many bangs as you'd expect.

None turbo you tend to have to spin them so hard you get the 3 cylinder scream you associate with old Corsas but the engine the new Panda will be getting works best at lower rpms so unless you're driving like a hoop it's unlikely you'll hear it. Given it'll be likely geared for 3k rpm at 90mph.

 

[AndyRKett]

Nah 4 cylinder diesel is just the noise of disappointment.

or buy a quality diesel and barely hear it at all, probably quieter than a lot of modern petrol models. lower revving heavier rotating mass means less high pitched harmonics (i am probably making that up)

At least a 3 sounds plucky...I am yet to hear a 4 cylinder diesel that sounds good. They can be made to be quiet, they can be made to blend into the back ground but they cannot be made to sound tuneful. Which most engines can...4 cylinder petrol on throttle bodies eg.

3 cylinder engine sounds like half a V6 but without the smoothness of a nicely balanced V6. More vibration, more complexity. The imbalance means they are more prone to piston slap. due to the 120 degree offset between the firing order and the one piston being half way up the bore when another fires.

3 cylinders done to cut down on manufacturing costs, 3 cylinders means saving on 1 piston 1 con rod shorter cam shafts, shorter crank, shorter engine block. less valves, less valve springs, less injectors. but in cutting costs you make an inferior engine.

Our last mini Hatch was the more modern 1.5 3 cylinder, and that was a horrid little engine. the 4 pot we had before it was much nicer despite being a PSA diesel.

 

[StevenRB45]

One example of a 4 cylinder diesel you'd listen to for pleasure?

I understand they get fitted to more expensive cars and get sound proofed and NVH'd damped to death so they can be quiet.

But the actual noise is just awful, if you fit the same amount of sound proofing and nvh gear to a 3 cylinder it can be just as quiet and smooth.

We shared the previous PSA diesel..oddly in my opinion moving to 3 cylinders was a massive upgrade. Given it no longer rattled your eyeballs at idle and you could go above 2500rpm without the evocative sound of a delivery van that's running late.

This will be entirely down to the amount of NVH damping material fitted and how much development was done but comparing cheap car to cheap car 4 cylinder diesel sounds worse. Even the Polo 3 diesels you used to get at least sounded interesting.

 

[AndyRKett]

One example of 4 cylinder diesel you'd listen to for pleasure?

Just to turn that around, what 4 cylinder petrol do you listen to for pleasure.

I mean there are nice sounding cars out their but if someone said what is the best sounding car engine out their, a 4 pot would not figure in the top 100 of any list I could come up with.

I am sure there are some very weird people in the world especially in the tractor community who obsess about the sounds of old diesel tractor engines.

The Diamond DA62 aircraft uses two aviation diesel engines adapted from the mercedes engine used in the A class, they sound lovely in that aircraft. much nicer and better refined than the flat 6 or flat 4 aircooled units used in a lot of similar aircraft.

 

[StevenRB45]

Just to turn that around, what 4 cylinder petrol do you listen to for pleasure.

I will say this is not a 4 cylinder diesel specific rant...4 cylinder petrol turbos can sound similarly uninspired.

But in the history of 4 cylinder petrols there are things like Alfa Romeo Giulias on carbs. Incidentally this was available with a Perkins 1.8d...which one would you rather listen to? There's plenty of nice sounding 4 cylinder petrols over time... although not so much in the modern era.

However I'm yet to hear an inline 4 diesel that is not either rattly or a carefully massaged drone.

So I'd not put a 4 cylinder petrol or a diesel or a 3 cylinder in the best sounding engines ever..but some are better than others.

 

[vexorg]

One example of a 4 cylinder diesel you'd listen to for pleasure?

Who listens to a diesel for pleasure?
The 2.0 PSA one is not unpleasant, which is quite a difference to other diesels I've had

Just to turn that around, what 4 cylinder petrol do you listen to for pleasure.

C20LET, 3S-GTE

A 3 turbo sounds nicer than a 4 cylinder turbo as standard, 4 cylinder is just a drone with it's 90 degree firing order separation while the 3 sounds like a 6...but with half as many bangs as you'd expect.

I always took the 6 or 8 cylinder enginers (and to a lesser degree 5) as a different sound because the exhaust gas is more even, in so far as the next cylinder is adding to the flow before the last one stops. The 4 cylinder will have point of no gas flow from the engine, and 3 cylinder periods of nothing. Though the turbo may be the changing factor there and it will affect the sound.

Thining about it more, there's probably a negative exhaust manifold pressure there with the 3 cylinder after the exhaust valve closes..

 

[portland_bill]

No it doesn't, more like a lawnmower!
Out of all the engines, three cylinders sound bad as they are designed for cheapness and economy.

Not entirely true. 3cyl engines were considered to reduce pumping losses, whilst still retaining some balance. With a 120 degree crank, they have good primary balance, but with uneven firing intervals, poor secondary balance. The uneven firing intervals give them the off-bat thrum, like a wannabe Quattro.
A 4cyl gives good primary and secondary balance, although not perfect. A straight six gives very good primary and secondary balance, but takes lots of space, and is expensive. An in-line 5cyl gives a good compromise between them, but of course has greater pumping losses than a 4, and is more expensive, especially the crank, with all 5 cylinders spaced out, none in line with another.
A twin will always be difficult to balance, so a triple gives a good benefit of smaller size, lower pumping losses, reasonably smooth. Savings over a 4, and generally more economical, mostly due to lower pumping losses.

I agree that our old 1.0 2004 Corsa (which sounded like a diesel) and my mums equally dreadfully built 1.0 208 sounded like you were hurting it by driving it. But there are good sounding 3 cylinders too:

It’s a new era and a much bigger, longer term thinking company now. PSA never competed with Toyota on reliability or were capable of a car like that… but now who knows, perhaps they have a new fire in them for the future and can finally start putting in some Toyota and VW level ‘global player’ investment into R&D. Anything’s possible

The 1.0 Corsa used the Suzuki engine, from its small cars. That engine still lives, although updated several times, used in the Indian Marutis, and the Suzuki Alto. I think the Toyota triple is a derivitive of it.
We used the Corsa with BSM. I liked it, as it taught the learners the need to always be in the correct gear for the speed and load, as otherwise, it just refused. Joining faster roads was always fun, 2nd gear, boot hard to the floor, hold on and let it rev 'til it wouldn't go any faster, then take the next gear. Great fun, no oil used. Loved them.

 

[AndyRKett]

C20LET, 3S-GTE

Thank you for sharing your hobby

 

[vexorg]

The 1.0 Corsa used the Suzuki engine,

We used the Corsa with BSM. I liked it,

We had one as a coutersy car many years ago when our main car was in getting serviced. Going from a 2.6 v6 vectra b to a 1.0 corsa was funny. The accelerator appeared to have no function above 50mph, you could lift off and push down as quick and hard as you like and feel nothing!

Thank you for sharing your hobby

You asked. Not quite floppy punto level, but I'm happy with my hobbies.

 

[AndyRKett]

You asked.

Well yes…. Just not you I was talking to @StevenRB45

Listening to engines for pleasure is pretty bloody weird as a hobby, but to each their own

 

[StevenRB45]

Well look at it this way...

Since I ended the finance on the C3 in 2020...it's done 32k miles which at an average of 35 mph is 38 full days listening to 3 cylinder noises.

That's a long time to listen to anything...and far longer if you find the noise unpleasant.

Look at it like not tuning into radio stations that play songs you don't like rather than a hobby

 

[vexorg]

Listening to engines for pleasure is pretty bloody weird as a hobby, but to each their own

It must be a guy / car thing...

 

[SB1500]

Four best sounding engines I’ve ever heard… Abarth 595… LaFerrari… Lexus LFA. All petrol (no three cylinders). Fiat Coupe also one of the coolest due to the 5 cylinders!

The Abarth with the 4 cylinder sounds phenomenal!

If you don’t enjoy listening to the sound of an engine then I’d say you’re not much of a car person. To exclude on the number of cylinders seems pretentious…

The only concession I would make for enjoying the sound of a diesel (because in fairness, they sound like tractors and outside of farming I don’t view that as cool)… is if you own one and you enjoy seeing it running like a clock, or have passed a high mileage or done a repair and it’s back to running well - there’s definitely a satisfaction in that.

But petrol has that and a much nicer note. No argument about that except probably from the young guys who drive around old beat out, black soot rear ended vintage VAG cars

I for one enjoyed reviving the hell out of that old (Suzuki derived) 1.0 in the Corsa a decade ago.. both trying to feel cool and also struggling with the clutch as a new driver (making an ass out of myself in both scenarios)

 

[AndyRKett]

It must be a guy / car thing...

Maybe its just a you thing, most car guys prefer to drive them or work on them, than just listen to them.... At least it makes you a cheap date, you can get off sat by the motor way