Technical Head Gasket/Cam help needed.

[bugsymike]

Worst one I ever did was a Dolomite Sprint. completely seized on. come to think of it the 1850 engine was a pain generally. Even stuff like the "A" and "B" series BL stuff, although a cast iron head, could be well seized on the studs. I remember having a right nightmare with my own Mini getting the ally thermostat housing off the studs - lots of plus gas and "shock" treatment.

Yes life got easier with more using bolts, I liked my Fords with all the OHVs going that route earlier than many other makes.
The "Dollop of Shi*e" sorry Dolomite was half the Stag engine and I rebuilt one of those in late 70s, I recall using sawn off wedges to ease the heads off in situ, luckily after a light skim was able to recover them and after grinding all the valves in and measuring shims etc. I went to our local Triumph Dealer and they let me ferret through their shim box.
I must have been keen in those days as I rebuilt a couple of Mazda RX3 Rotary's around then also.

 

[Haggis23]

Thanks everyone, I think I got it right then the only variation I can think is I’ve taken the cam out with pulley still attached out for machining, will I have to take the pulley off to refit at some stage?

 

[bugsymike]

Thanks everyone, I think I got it right then the only variation I can think is I’ve taken the cam out with pulley still attached out for machining, will I have to take the pulley off to refit at some stage?

I am guessing if it's all marked to replace in same position, hopefully not.
I assume you now have a flat surface for the machine skimming tool to work on, also you have removed any sensors etc. to prevent inadvertent damage. including spark plugs as metal swarf is best avoided.
Once returned and all cleaned up I like to squirt an engine oil can through all the oil ways so I know a good flow will get to the cam bearings etc.

 

[Jockstrap]

Worst one I ever did was a Dolomite Sprint. completely seized on. come to think of it the 1850 engine was a pain generally. Even stuff like the "A" and "B" series BL stuff, although a cast iron head, could be well seized on the studs. I remember having a right nightmare with my own Mini getting the ally thermostat housing off the studs - lots of plus gas and "shock" treatment.

Didn't think Plusgas was that old .

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Didn't think Plusgas was that old .

Hmm? I tend to use "plus gas" in the generic sense so it may have been something else? However I just googled "when was plus gas first marketed" and it came back 1975. The Dolly sprint came in around '73? so it could well have been actual Plus Gas I used. Our front shop sold it and it was very popular so the storeman always had it in stock and there were tins, like 3-in-1 oil cans, around the workshop for us to use. I actually bought one of those old type tins just a couple of years ago - the aerosols are so much easier to use though. I was introduced to PB Blaster and kroil by the chap I know in Maryland - who's restoring a Mk1 Corvette, also great products but expensive over here even if you can find them.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Thanks everyone, I think I got it right then the only variation I can think is I’ve taken the cam out with pulley still attached out for machining, will I have to take the pulley off to refit at some stage?

You've got the timing tools haven't you? So I'd be leaving it alone until I'd built it all back together, Fit the timing tools and then the belt - remembering you'll need to turn the cam slightly clockwise (usually about half a tooth, to get the teeth to mesh so the cam locking tool will need to be removed to do this. Once the belt is fitted don't put the cam timing bar back in but tighten the belt adjuster bearing (crank locking tool still in place - you'll see the top pulley turn just a little anticlockwise as the belt tension goes on, and now, if you've reassembled it correctly and the cam pulley was correctly timed to the shaft in the first place (which, in my experience, they nearly always are) you should be able to slip the cam locking tool back into it's slot in the end of the camshaft. So, to answer your question directly, No, I don't think you'll have to slacken that pulley bolt - unless the pulley was incorrectly aligned befor you started. The crank locking tool is in place during all of this and only gets removed when you're ready to turn the engine by hand to check for resistance before turning the starter key.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I am guessing if it's all marked to replace in same position, hopefully not.
I assume you now have a flat surface for the machine skimming tool to work on, also you have removed any sensors etc. to prevent inadvertent damage. including spark plugs as metal swarf is best avoided.
Once returned and all cleaned up I like to squirt an engine oil can through all the oil ways so I know a good flow will get to the cam bearings etc.

I like to blow every orifice out with compressed air and you can feel the air coming out of the journal holes. I like your idea of squirting oil into the oilways. I have used assembly paste on big end, main bearings and cam journals with good results but I still like squirt oil over everything - like cam lobes etc - and then, with plugs removed and no cam/rocker cover in place, spin the engine on the starter and watch were the oil comes out and for the oil pressure light to go out. You can't do this effectively on the FIRE engine as the oil supply to the cam journals goes through the cam cover unfortunately, however, if oil's not getting to the top end the tappets will rattle like castanetes!

 

[bugsymike]

I like to blow every orifice out with compressed air and you can feel the air coming out of the journal holes. I like your idea of squirting oil into the oilways. I have used assembly paste on big end, main bearings and cam journals with good results but I still like squirt oil over everything - like cam lobes etc - and then, with plugs removed and no cam/rocker cover in place, spin the engine on the starter and watch were the oil comes out and for the oil pressure light to go out. You can't do this effectively on the FIRE engine as the oil supply to the cam journals goes through the cam cover unfortunately, however, if oil's not getting to the top end the tappets will rattle like castanetes!

When ever rebuilding engines, pistons/rings/bearing shells etc. as well as the top end I like to rub the oil over all the moving parts, (no rubber gloves, very tactile ) but at least I know the engine is well lubed, also if any imperfections, sharp bits etc. I can feel them if missed visually.
The excess oil soon goes on fire up and I always take pleasure in how quick one of my rebuilds burst into life.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

When ever rebuilding engines, pistons/rings/bearing shells etc. as well as the top end I like to rub the oil over all the moving parts, (no rubber gloves, very tactile ) but at least I know the engine is well lubed, also if any imperfections, sharp bits etc. I can feel them if missed visually.
The excess oil soon goes on fire up and I always take pleasure in how quick one of my rebuilds burst into life.

Absolutely, the more the better! I learned one relevant and interesting thing when I went on the Borg Warner courses for the 35 and 65. They advised the use of vaseline if you needed to "stick" something like a spacer, distance piece, or thrust washer in place while assembling another component to it. Never ever use a grease because the grease doesn't emulsify into the oil and can travel around to block up strainers and small orifices. The petroleum jelly (vaseline) will hold "stuff" in place but then melts when it gets hot.

 

[Jockstrap]

Absolutely, the more the better! I learned one relevant and interesting thing when I went on the Borg Warner courses for the 35 and 65. They advised the use of vaseline if you needed to "stick" something like a spacer, distance piece, or thrust washer in place while assembling another component to it. Never ever use a grease because the grease doesn't emulsify into the oil and can travel around to block up strainers and small orifices. The petroleum jelly (vaseline) will hold "stuff" in place but then melts when it gets hot.

Nothing smutty, but a now departed pal taught me the wonders of vaseline. Boat engines .
Old school doesn't translate .

 

[Haggis23]

Hi everyone, had to abandon project today, head went well, but broke the tensioner tool, just couldn’t torque the tensioner up without alignment marks moving, is there something I’m doing wrong ? Can someone confirm if you need the tension tool in place to do up the nut to the correct torque? If so how the hell do you hold onto it? I may have just bought too cheaper a tool? So close to getting it back together, but sad not to get further.

Any help appreciated. Thanks hag

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Hi everyone, had to abandon project today, head went well, but broke the tensioner tool, just couldn’t torque the tensioner up without alignment marks moving, is there something I’m doing wrong ? Can someone confirm if you need the tension tool in place to do up the nut to the correct torque? If so how the hell do you hold onto it? I may have just bought too cheaper a tool? So close to getting it back together, but sad not to get further.

Any help appreciated. Thanks hag

The little pins on the tensioner tool are well known to snap off - I use a pair of right angled circlip pliers.

Can I assume you're saying that the "alignment marks" are the two pointers on the tensioner bearing and not the cam/crank alignment marks? I've not had troubles tightening the tensioner pulley pulley myself and I've done plenty of them. Can you describe in more detail what exactly is happening?

 

[Haggis23]

From the videos I’ve seen it looks simple! Crankshaft and camshaft timing tools are in place, I can get the tensioner marks to line up perfectly and nip it up with a spanner, but I go to torque it with tool on and it feels impossible to hold, or without tensioner tool on and it and the marks move out of alignment. Now I am using a ‘used’ tensioner as I had a garage fit it less than 2k miles ago latter part of last year, assuming they aren’t one time products?
Any ideas?

 

[jrkitching]

using a ‘used’ tensioner as I had a garage fit it less than 2k miles ago latter part of last year, assuming they aren’t one time products

I'm not sure about the tensioner, but the belt is a 'one time' product; the tensioning process won't work correctly with a used belt.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

From the videos I’ve seen it looks simple! Crankshaft and camshaft timing tools are in place, I can get the tensioner marks to line up perfectly and nip it up with a spanner, but I go to torque it with tool on and it feels impossible to hold, or without tensioner tool on and it and the marks move out of alignment. Now I am using a ‘used’ tensioner as I had a garage fit it less than 2k miles ago latter part of last year, assuming they aren’t one time products?
Any ideas?

sorry, I'm having trouble visualizing this. Wish I could be there with you. Don't think there's much more I can contribute from a distance and unseen.

 

[Haggis23]

I'm not sure about the tensioner, but the belt is a 'one time' product; the tensioning process won't work correctly with a used belt.

 

[bugsymike]

Maybe a photo of the bit causing problems?

 

[Haggis23]

 

[Haggis23]

So basically trying to hold the two pins with the tensioner tool and torque up the nut. Had two people on it, one trying to hold it with the tool the other trying to tighten it. Can’t hold the tool strong enough to keep the marks from moving.

 

[bugsymike]

View attachment 464527

As @Pugglt Auld Jock suggested I too have used a right angled pair of circlip pliers to do that job, it should be fairly easy assuming nut is backed off a little and any spacers etc are fitted in the correct position so the adjuster pulley turns smoothly in it's correct direction as per guide manual. Something must be wrong if it is dragging to that degree when torquing the lock nut.
Maybe recheck the adjuster pulley is located correctly at the engine side.