Technical Ducato P0401 P0402 P0236 P0238 and limp mode its 2017 Euro 6, EGR changed, What do I check next

[Sillystu84]

Hey guys can I pick your brains over head gasket so mine is a 1.2mm thick but they do a 1.3mm thick would it make any difference getting the thicker one ?

 

[jackwhoo]

Hey guys can I pick your brains over head gasket so mine is a 1.2mm thick but they do a 1.3mm thick would it make any difference getting the thicker one ?

Yes it would be wrong.
Replace like for like.
Often the head gasket thickness is to be correct for the piston protrusion above the block deck so pistons don't hit the head.

 

[theoneandonly]

just added 2 guides one a concise compilation of various responces to questions here and elsewhere.

Twin EGR Problem

This does not refer to earlier single EGR systems or to later AdBlu SCR engines. Note this is a guide and not definative. It is up to you to make decissions. It is the result of my investigations of data from many contributors and discussion with...

www.fiatforum.com

and a compilation of what is a twin egr engine.

How does a twin egr engine work

The following is a description of a twin egr engine edited from https://mechcontent.com/ and other sources It is not a detailed examination of the Fiat engine, if theres anything obviously wrong please advise. The internal combustion engine uses...

www.fiatforum.com

 

[DucatoMJ180Finland]

Greetings from Finland. We bought Ducato Multijet 180 2017 Euro 6 Comformatic, 4 years ago and we have been using it without problems until last Friday. Mileage now about 93 000 km. Car started to have lack of power just after cold starts and "Check Engine" light lit. After short driving or motor running power comes back and we can drive without problem, but after a bit longer parking problem comes back. Today I went to local repair shop to read out failures and got following error codes: 487-74 (EGR valve position tracking - actuator slipping, 409-14 (EGR Position sensor, electrical test - circuit short to ground or open) and 101-21 (Air mass flow meter drift - signal amplitude < minimum). They did not have time to analyze more and we agreed that I will follow situation and later on they will check again. Later today afternoon I started the engine again and same problem occurred and check engine lit up again. I let the car run for awhile until it run stable, then I started the engine three times and "check engine" turned off. I started to read about this problem and found this topic. Is there something I should know or do? I wonder if our car I facing same problem than you all or is this something else?

Update from Finland.

I booked time from my local car service and they found out that servo/solenoid of HP EGR is broken (Resistor values were about 80-90ohms). New HP EGR will be ordered and it will be changed. They also found out that software was updated to 0024 version at February 2018. Should I ask them to update it to 0032 version?

Exhaust pipe of my car is not sooty.

Before taking the car to service I was trying to use stardiag bluetooth interface, but unfortunately it did not work. I am now waiting USB/wifi interface and hopefully able to track system with it.

 

[theoneandonly]

Update from Finland.

I booked time from my local car service and they found out that servo/solenoid of HP EGR is broken (Resistor values were about 80-90ohms). New HP EGR will be ordered and it will be changed. They also found out that software was updated to 0024 version at February 2018. Should I ask them to update it to 0032 version?

Exhaust pipe of my car is not sooty.

Before taking the car to service I was trying to use stardiag bluetooth interface, but unfortunately it did not work. I am now waiting USB/wifi interface and hopefully able to track system with it.

58,000miles is a good distance before cooler issues, so may have escaped issues, but there a few with issues at V24 none known @ V28. So in your position i would update.

 

[athoirs]

Couple of days off so back at it again...

 

[theoneandonly]

@athoirs

Any chance of adding labels to the sensors/ leads. well done.
1
2
3
4
5
6

C1
C2
C3

 

[athoirs]

If you can wait a little bit I'll do that. Ive just boxed the whole thing up and are sending it off to a specialist to get checked, cleaned and flow tested. At least I'll get some idea of its condition. I can't see any damage to the bottom of the core, but can't see the top at all because of the swan neck and that's the part that gets the heat I expect.

 

[DucatoMJ180Finland]

Update from Finland.

I booked time from my local car service and they found out that servo/solenoid of HP EGR is broken (Resistor values were about 80-90ohms). New HP EGR will be ordered and it will be changed. They also found out that software was updated to 0024 version at February 2018. Should I ask them to update it to 0032 version?

Exhaust pipe of my car is not sooty.

Before taking the car to service I was trying to use stardiag bluetooth interface, but unfortunately it did not work. I am now waiting USB/wifi interface and hopefully able to track system with it.

Greetings from Finland. Got car back from service and it seemed to work well during short test drive. HP EGR was changed and software updated to version 32 (previous 24). EGR looked a bit black, but I guess it wasn't that bad. Check attached photos. Perhaps I will try to clean and repair it if I can find servo motor as spare part.

I also got my stardiag wifi / USB but I'm having hard time to get it connected properly. I am able to connect my laptop via USB and wifi and my iPhone via wifi to the interface, but when I'm doing a scan with Multiecuscan (free version, I planned to buy full version after confirmed functionality), it shows me BCM (body control module), Airbag, Dashboard and Climate control module, but it does not show me ECM.

If I'm trying to connect Engine management separately, it always give me an error "connection failed / ELM327 -> ECU connection failed. CAN bus error. Check if interface is properly connected to the vehicle and correct vehicle/module is selected." Ducato is Multijet 2,3 2017 with Marelli 9DF. In addition for Marelli I have also tried different engine managements from multiecuscan options, but all of them behave similarly and cannot connect.

I have Stardiag Wifi/USB with yellow adapter cable (adapter 3)

WIFI+USB Stardiag Interface CAN327 (CANBUS) - Electronic-Fuchs

"WiFi Diagnostic Kit for Multiecuscan – Compatible with iPhone/iPad. Enables wireless diagnostics for Fiat, Alfa Romeo, and other supported brands using Multiec

electronic-fuchs.de

Yellow adapter (adapter 3) for MultiECUScan / AlfaOBD - Electronic-Fuchs

"Adapter for MultiECUScan/AlfaOBD – compatible connection for seamless diagnostics on supported vehicles. Ensures accurate data access and performance."

electronic-fuchs.de

Any ideas what should I do?

 

[Fredastaire]

Are you using both cables together? From memory you only use the yellow for specific ECUs like airbag.
For the engine searching you only use the main cable

For cleaning the HP EGR, remove the plastic servo motor assembly. Make a steel cross strap bolting into the servo fixing holes. With a central hole in the cross strap use a long bolt and nut, screw it in progressively and it will fully open the valve as 'a penny on a stick'.
Use caustic soda to dissolve the carbon and flush with clean water. The caustic clean takes only seconds or a minute or so. Don't leave it to soak as caustic dissolves aluminium!
.
Cleaning is quick and easy.
.
Let us know how you get on

 

[DucatoMJ180Finland]

Are you using both cables together? From memory you only use the yellow for specific ECUs like airbag.
For the engine searching you only use the main cable

For cleaning the HP EGR, remove the plastic servo motor assembly. Make a steel cross strap bolting into the servo fixing holes. With a central hole in the cross strap use a long bolt and nut, screw it in progressively and it will fully open the valve as 'a penny on a stick'.
Use caustic soda to dissolve the carbon and flush with clean water. The caustic clean takes only seconds or a minute or so. Don't leave it to soak as caustic dissolves aluminium!
.
Cleaning is quick and easy.
.
Let us know how you get on

That might be the reason indeed. I double checked now from vehicle support page of multiecuscan and for engine management adapter cable should not be used. I will try without it. Thanks!

 

[athoirs]

Couple of photos of my DPF showing all the ports and connectors - hope this helps! The two pipes to the pressure sensor have different diameters at the ends. It's back on the van now along with the new LPEGR. I'll start it up tomorrow. Managed to do all the work without removing the subframe ( just dropping it) or the steering rack/ball joints.

 

[theoneandonly]

Recently some has suggested a French product for cleaning EGRs. Unfortunately its not available in uk, but got me looking at alternatives. I think in this group we know how important a clean environmental system egr, dpf, turbo is but how to achieve it. I think a number of us use Millers eco additive that cleans injectors and aids combustion but has no known effect post combustion. Has anyone used alternatives or know of doccumented tests. I thinking specificaly of Archoil AR6400-P Max PEA Professional Petrol Injector, Turbo, Cat Cleaner is it actually any good at cleaning turbos egr system. does it really get past combustion. Is there any doccumentation on its effectiveness. ALternative maybe Oilsyn CarbonCode DPF and Turbo Dr. I am thinking specificaly about using with twin egr ducatos and cracked DPFs what extra life could you expect out of a LPEGRcooler clean could it be more or less effective than posh diesel as used by @Fredastaire

 

[Fredastaire]

@athoirs reference your DPF photo, were you able to remove it with all the sensors and pipes attached or did you reassemble for the photo purposes?
I still want to find a way to modify the resistance of the LP temp probe so the LP EGR thinks it's hot and thus will close the EGR drive motor to reduce or stop the exhaust passage. Alternative change the EGR internal cam.

 

[athoirs]

The DPF can be removed and refitted completely with the pipe work and sensors fitted apart from the top O2 sensor which can be accessed from the top of the engine. It hits the engine bay on the way out. The other thing to watch is the alternator exciter connector which has to be unplugged

 

[CheeseMonster]

@athoirs reference your DPF photo, were you able to remove it with all the sensors and pipes attached or did you reassemble for the photo purposes?
I still want to find a way to modify the resistance of the LP temp probe so the LP EGR thinks it's hot and thus will close the EGR drive motor to reduce or stop the exhaust passage. Alternative change the EGR internal cam.

I haven't tried this but have you considered the AD5171 digital potentiometer and an Arduinoto to mimic the temp probe?

I've no idea what resistance range the temp probe has or ever measured the output from a Ducato's probe.

 

[Sillystu84]

@athoirs reference your DPF photo, were you able to remove it with all the sensors and pipes attached or did you reassemble for the photo purposes?
I still want to find a way to modify the resistance of the LP temp probe so the LP EGR thinks it's hot and thus will close the EGR drive motor to reduce or stop the exhaust passage. Alternative change the EGR internal cam.

 

[Sillystu84]

Hi guys hope everyone is doing well, I once again want to pick your brains as most of you are aware I’ve just had to do a head gasket after doing all the other stuff ( turbo, hpegr, lpegr and dpf replacement) So the truck is back up and running but one thing is concerning me and that is I’ve not heard the cooling fan kick in which is making me think this is why my head gasket went, so I’ve checked wiring all fine, checked relays/fuses all ok, replaced the two resonators on the fan it’s self as they was a bit old and one fell apart in my hand lol linked fans direct to 12v and they work,,

So can anyone tell me at what temp should the fans be kicking in at ?

And if I’ve missed anything else that could stop them from working ?

I’ve had the truck upto about 90c on my scanner but still not kicking in

 

[deejays]

I haven't tried this but have you considered the AD5171 digital potentiometer and an Arduinoto to mimic the temp probe?

I've no idea what resistance range the temp probe has or ever measured the output from a Ducato's probe.

Sounds like a very complicated and unnecessary way to duplicate an analogue potentiometer. I like @Fredastaire 's idea to offset the temp reading by adjusting the resistance value. It will likely work, but one thing that may upset the idea is that FIAT engineering cross references a number of sensors and if one is noted to be "out of whack" with others in the circuit then it will ignore that sensor and throw a fault code for the corrupted sensor. I know from my experience that all of the temperature sensors in the exhaust/DPF system are cross referenced - when I took one of them to far out of the expected measurement envelope the ECU told me. However, the LP EGR temp sensor may well be isolated enough not to have the same issue - so well worth a try Fred. When I measured the impedance transfer curve of the sensor I was concerned with I used an AUTEL DS808 which gave me not only the temp readout in C, but also the voltage on the sensor. From that I derived the resistance, knowing the value of the pull-up resistor in the ECU. MES did not record the voltage - just the temp in C. You could use MES to measure the temp, and use a DVM to measure the voltage - just a bit more faff to get the data.

 

[theoneandonly]

You could use MES to measure the temp, and use a DVM to measure the voltage - just a bit more faff to get the data.

Because of the difficulty in physicaly getting at the sensor i did suggest to @Fredastaire getting a spare sensor and doing a calibration eg @0C water frezzing 100 C boiling and measuring with both MES and multimeter. and maybe a Ktype thermocouple and meter (available). Ive got the kit and capability if a sensor turned up at my door. Whats the part number.