Technical Ducato P0401 P0402 P0236 P0238 and limp mode its 2017 Euro 6, EGR changed, What do I check next

[theoneandonly]

@kangexpress is yours a comformatic automatic box. Has the auto ecu been updated?
Sorry to hear your woes but you have added good info, something to think about, thank you.

 

[Fredastaire]

Yes mine is Comfortmatic is yours? I havnt checked yet for update. Have you read the Fiat internal service note?

 

[BobSlo]

Mine is comfortmatic as well.
On the way home after 2,6 km limp home mode P0238-061, reset, came home with no problems. Connected MES and there was pending code P0401-61

 

[theoneandonly]

Most with this problem have been comformatic, any one with a manual?

 

[Baz in Kent]

My van‘s still awaiting repair, this will be injectors, DPF, both EGRs, intercooler and pipes. I’ve been pressing Fiat to pay or at least contribute and have asked for a technical expert review to confirm the £7.5k repair will stop the problem recurring. They’ve offered some reconditioned parts reducing the cost by about £1k but getting anything or any information out of them is very difficult as they’re happy to just say the van’s out of warranty - despite it having only done 15k miles. I first wrote to them on 5 Feb and have had little use of my camper for almost 4 months.
I believe they designed our engine to reduce emissions without the software or technology to handle it, subsequently they brought in the adblue version so I doubt they’ll resource fixing our problem - which I think should be a recall.
if it’s possible to get a group of us together to petition Fiat we just might get a technical review and software update but I don’t know how this can be achieved. I’d be willing to write to Fiat again on behalf of the group if there are enough people who agree with what I’m saying, or have better technical expertise (mine’s limited) and a different hypothesis.
It may be possible to bring a legal claim for negligence but this would be complex and potentially expensive.
Any suggestions or comments?

 

[BobSlo]

I got the answer form FIAT representative in Slovenia that the motorhome is not in warranty and that they will not contrIbute to the repair. I spoke to FIAT mechanic today, they scheduled me for monday. They will take out LPEGR, LPEGR cooler and DPF. I will take DPF to specialist shop for evaluation and repair. I already cleaned intercooler and part of pipes, i will try to clean EGR and the cooler. New MAF and MAP were already installed.

My opinion as well is that FIAT will not do anything if we do not put some pressure on them. I would likely join the group.

 

[Baz in Kent]

I got the answer form FIAT representative in Slovenia that the motorhome is not in warranty and that they will not contrIbute to the repair. I spoke to FIAT mechanic today, they scheduled me for monday. They will take out LPEGR, LPEGR cooler and DPF. I will take DPF to specialist shop for evaluation and repair. I already cleaned intercooler and part of pipes, i will try to clean EGR and the cooler. New MAF and MAP were already installed.

My opinion as well is that FIAT will not do anything if we do not put some pressure on them. I would likely join the group.

Thanks, if anyone has a list of names (@Fredastaire?) that would be a start.
I’d intend to at least threaten legal action, getting a response would no doubt be difficult but any group progress from all the individual grief may be a way to get the media interested, which could flush out more people who are affected. The industry already has enough scandal about emissions, possibly the threat of going public would get Fiat to take notice and do something.

 

[Steve928]

Happy to join the group or help in any other way. I have this ticking time bomb of an engine (Euro 6B 150bhp F1AGL411C) in my camper and am approaching the danger mileage.
I have MES and AlfaOBD so if there's anything I can contribute then please let me know.

Of course the irony of all this is that the twin EGR concept turns out to be a complete failure at handling NOx, as Promobil exposed in this test:

Welche Basisfahrzeuge stoßen wie viel NOx aus?: Wohnmobil-Diesel im Real-Abgas-Test

Dieseln, und damit den meisten Wohnmobilen, drohen wegen hoher NOx-Emissionen Fahrverbote. promobil testet vier populäre Reisemobil-Basis-Fahrzeuge im Straßenbetrieb. Wie sauber sind VW Crafter, Mercedes Sprinter, Fiat Ducato und Citroën Jumper?

www.promobil.de

So not only have we got an unreliable power unit but it's a bad polluter too..

Thanks for all the info gathered by the main contributors to this thread thus far.

 

[Baz in Kent]

Thanks Steve - hopefully there‘ll be answers before you have a problem but mine started at 12.7k miles.
Seeing as Fiat issued a service bulletin (10.023.19) it seems likely that a large number of vans will have had the problem inside the warranty period but this will be hard to establish without someone inside the industry. Maybe everyone should ask their friendly local Fiat Professional workshop…

 

[theoneandonly]

Hello,
Having the same issues with P0401, P0402, P0238.


The Code P0401 means that the actuator of the HP EGR Valve isn't working correctly. Stuck open or stuck close. Or isn't moving.

But live data isn't showing any abnormalities.

Both HP EGR and LP EGR are working fine.

Sometimes the desired boost pressure is lower than the actual boost pressure.
Than the code P0238 is saved in ECU.

Have you got copies of the MES autosaved data files? Please PM start conversation if possible.
Upto now i have had no error codes but have only done 8000miles on a 2017. ECU was programmed to 28 in 2019 first service.
attached are a number of graphs showing air flow. Descrepancies show when under acceleration.
I Have done some trials with both MES and Afaobd using OBDlinkSX usb cable and VGate BT dongle.
note Alfaobd and Mes uses different units.
These were taken as a stake in the ground before getting ecu update and changing the MAP sensor (to se if i have one of the incorrect sensors.

 

[Baz in Kent]

Hello...... update from my side.

Response from Fiat Germany: no excessive failures P0236, P0238, P0401 known.
I was asked to have further tests done at the local Fiat dealer (under the guidance of Fiat Service Germany).

In February and March I had several trips ( about 1000km) with frequent MIL, always about 10km after start.
The MIL always comes when the temperature is above 5°C!

In the last five days, I've driven 1400km without MIL, always in temperatures below 4°C!

Misterious !!!

Next week I have a service appointment at Fiat, update to follow.

Hi Thomas, can I ask please what progress you made with Fiat - if any?
Thanks.

 

[kangexpress]

@kangexpress is yours a comformatic automatic box. Has the auto ecu been updated?
Sorry to hear your woes but you have added good info, something to think about, thank you.

No. It's normal gear.

 

[kangexpress]

Mine is comfortmatic as well.
On the way home after 2,6 km limp home mode P0238-061, reset, came home with no problems. Connected MES and there was pending code P0401-61

Exactly same problem.
Even with same parameters.

 

[kangexpress]

I got the answer form FIAT representative in Slovenia that the motorhome is not in warranty and that they will not contrIbute to the repair. I spoke to FIAT mechanic today, they scheduled me for monday. They will take out LPEGR, LPEGR cooler and DPF. I will take DPF to specialist shop for evaluation and repair. I already cleaned intercooler and part of pipes, i will try to clean EGR and the cooler. New MAF and MAP were already installed.

My opinion as well is that FIAT will not do anything if we do not put some pressure on them. I would likely join the group.

My FIAT dealer did the opposite thing.

First changed LPEGR, LPEGR Cooler, HP EGR, DPF. But problem is still there.

Now he's saying that they just had a call with FIAT technical center.
And they are saying if the van was driven a long time with a blocked DPF than the intake air system gets polluted and needs to be changed or cleaned.
Also inside the cylinder head.

My FIAT Dealer says he can't say if it will work to clean out the whole intake air system and how much time it will take.
He hasn't done it before on a FIAT Ducato.
But that's what FIAT technical center told him.
That the problem with P0401 is soot / pollution in intake air system due to long runs with blocked DPF.
Didn't say anything about the P0238 probem with lack of boost pressure and if both problems are related or not.

I think maybe it's possible that both codes are related.
Lack of boost pressure due to micro loosing air pressure from some air leaking pipe causes that there is more fuel and less air in the engine.
These generates black smoke which blocks the DPF partly.
But still can be restored from block due to the cleaning cycles.
But between two cleaning cycles the intake air system gets polluted because of insufficient air in the burning process and black smoke.

So the real problem would be hear than the lack / leaking of boost pressure.
Causing the EGR Problem.

 

[Baz in Kent]

My FIAT dealer did the opposite thing.

First changed LPEGR, LPEGR Cooler, HP EGR, DPF. But problem is still there.

Now he's saying that they just had a call with FIAT technical center.
And they are saying if the van was driven a long time with a blocked DPF than the intake air system gets polluted and needs to be changed or cleaned.
Also inside the cylinder head.

My FIAT Dealer says he can't say if it will work to clean out the whole intake air system and how much time it will take.
He hasn't done it before on a FIAT Ducato.
But that's what FIAT technical center told him.
That the problem with P0401 is soot / pollution in intake air system due to long runs with blocked DPF.
Didn't say anything about the P0238 probem with lack of boost pressure and if both problems are related or not.

I think maybe it's possible that both codes are related.
Lack of boost pressure due to micro loosing air pressure from some air leaking pipe causes that there is more fuel and less air in the engine.
These generates black smoke which blocks the DPF partly.
But still can be restored from block due to the cleaning cycles.
But between two cleaning cycles the intake air system gets polluted because of insufficient air in the burning process and black smoke.

So the real problem would be hear than the lack / leaking of boost pressure.
Causing the EGR Problem.

Fiat technical are currently reviewing my case and have asked for data from the Fiat workshop.
it seems to me the key question is “what’s caused/causing this build up“ - ie is it too much fuel going in or not enough being removed or both? is this due to poor design, parts failure, or inadequate software?
It seems ridiculous that the engine can run with a clogged DPF without warning the driver, also there are contributors here whose DPF is regenerating properly (according to MES).
I’m no expert but in UK consumer law owners would have recourse for repair or refund to the dealer who sold the vehicle, if it can be proved that it had the fault when they sold it.
(Within 6 months of sale the onus is on the dealer to prove there was no fault, after that and for up to 6 years it’s up to the owner to prove there was).
So any communication from Fiat will likely be crucial - if it can be trusted.

 

[Fredastaire]

Wow!
1/. I remember Paul C saying that it was a software program fault that causes the dpf to block plus there wasn't a error message built in to alert you of a problem.
2/. That 0032 latest supposedly sorts out these tech problems.
3/. When I changed the MAP the original was both gunged up and wrong part number.
4/.when I changed both the MAP and turbo vacuum solenoid I lost the fault codes for manifold pressure.
5/. yesterday when we were out for the day, P0401 and dash light came on when I decelerating at slow speed with foot off. Manifold airflow would have been very minimal so a blocked manifold could strangle what flow there was.
6/. I have MES screenshots of both the fault and the dpf status.
.
I've other work which will delay my next steps. I'm going to remove the inlet manifold for inspection. It's a tedious excercise as it starts with headlights of and grill and slam panel. Then the removal can begin...

 

[Fredastaire]

@BobSlo @Baz in Kent @kangexpress who is going to be the first person to strip off and clean the inlet manifold and cylinder head ports of gunge?
.
Just for any new person reading; P0401 DOES NOT mean the HP EGR is blocked even tho the fault code reader gives that script. You have about a 0.5% of the HP EGR being at fault.

 

[BobSlo]

I tested the HPEGR, but can not attach movie. It is not stuck, i can press it with finger and it influences the engine sound and RPM, motor is moving accordingly. I am sure that intake after inter-cooler is in my engine free of gunge. It seems that I detected the problem soon enough. On Monday i will start the project of DPF repair and cleaning things between DPF and inter-cooler (except Turbine). Will keep you posted.....

 

[BobSlo]

Today i took of throtle body because i was curious how much sooth is in HPEGR pipe and intake air collector.

 

[kangexpress]

@BobSlo @Baz in Kent @kangexpress who is going to be the first person to strip off and clean the inlet manifold and cylinder head ports of gunge?
.
Just for any new person reading; P0401 DOES NOT mean the HP EGR is blocked even tho the fault code reader gives that script. You have about a 0.5% of the HP EGR being at fault.

Did the whole exercise today.

New Mainfold Pressure sensor

New Turbocharger actuator

Cleaned the whole intake air system and HPEGR System. Except of LPEGR and LPEGR Cooler.

Pipe / part which connects HPEGR to intake manifold was indeed blocked with a lot of soot.

But Intake Manifold, pipe from exhaust manifold to EGR, EGR itself and throttle body where clean. Or just covered with some oil.
No blocking oor soot there.
Still cleaned everything with Diesel and brake cleaner.

But unfortunately there is no change.

Same issues as before.

P0401 and P0238 came back after the test ride.

While watching the live data of sensors I noticed that the actual boost pressure is up to 500mbar behind the desired boost pressure. But only in partial load situation.
And that's also the point where the fault code for boost pressure appears.
Under full load there is no lack of boost pressure.

In partial load situation the LPEGR is opend full. The LPEGR is needed to get quick response for boost pressure.

I've also noticed that when idling and LPEGR is open the actual boost pressure is 30 mbar behind the desired boost pressure.
After some minutes both EGR gets closed.
The actual boost pressure is than equal to the desired boost pressure (+30mbar).
Means its the same like in partial load vs. full load.
Only difference is that while idling the boost pressure difference is only 30mbar.
And the boost pressure difference in partial load is up to 500mbar.

That's why I come to the conclusion that the boost pressure problem is indeed because there is lack of airflow from LPEGR side.
It could be blocked DPF, blocked LPEGR cooler, broken LPEGR or air leak somewhere between DPF and LPEGR.

LPEGR Temperatur is between 35-55 C.
Can anyone check on a good car if there is the same temperature?

What do I do next?
DPF, LPEGR, LPEGR cooler and turbocharger have been changed before already.