General Ducato motorhome problems after not starting it for 6 weeks

[Autoswan]

I have a fiat Ducato 2.8jtd autotrail Cheyenne. 2004 model.
I didn't start it for 6 weeks back in February but it was on a smart charger so battery was good.
When I tried to start it there was loads of crank but no starting.

Mobile mechanic tested it and codes said immobilizer not recognising key so I had that part removed from ecm plus changed crank shaft sensor. It starts spot on now. I know the security issues about immobilized off and have that covered.

Next was we fitted a new turbo as the old ones actuator was seized for a long time.
The engine light would come on on long slow hills then go off when I eased off down gears.

Since getting it started again the engine light comes on at 3000 revs or if I give it a quick press on throttle.
Codes showed sensor and fuel regulator valves fault which I changed all 3 one after the other as faults kept showing. Once all 3 were changed codes showed clear and no faults. But engine light still coming on !

No sensors along exhaust system which I thought may be a hole somewhere kicking light on,
It's baffling us what it could be as it drives fine.

Any ideas what's next to try ?

 

[bugsymike]

I have a fiat Ducato 2.8jtd autotrail Cheyenne. 2004 model.
I didn't start it for 6 weeks back in February but it was on a smart charger so battery was good.
When I tried to start it there was loads of crank but no starting.

Mobile mechanic tested it and codes said immobilizer not recognising key so I had that part removed from ecm plus changed crank shaft sensor. It starts spot on now. I know the security issues about immobilized off and have that covered.

Next was we fitted a new turbo as the old ones actuator was seized for a long time.
The engine light would come on on long slow hills then go off when I eased off down gears.

Since getting it started again the engine light comes on at 3000 revs or if I give it a quick press on throttle.
Codes showed sensor and fuel regulator valves fault which I changed all 3 one after the other as faults kept showing. Once all 3 were changed codes showed clear and no faults. But engine light still coming on !

No sensors along exhaust system which I thought may be a hole somewhere kicking light on,
It's baffling us what it could be as it drives fine.

Any ideas what's next to try ?

Are you able to read "live data" on diagnostic tool?

 

[Autoswan]

Are you able to read "live data" on diagnostic tool?

The mobile mechanic used his kit to read it as it was running and not running to see what codes / faults were showing. After going through what I said above it now shows no faults / codes ?
It's not a cheap reader but he's borrowing a different one from work tomorrow to see if it throws any new codes.
It's baffling us both.

 

[Autoswan]

Going to try a smoke test next to see if any leaks in hoses/pipes.intercooler etc.
Then if nothing, take it for another long run to see if any codes pop up ?
Used 2 different code readers on it and both say no faults but engine light still comes on when 3000 revs or quick blast on throttle ?

 

[Communicator]

I have a fiat Ducato 2.8jtd autotrail Cheyenne. 2004 model.
I didn't start it for 6 weeks back in February but it was on a smart charger so battery was good.
When I tried to start it there was loads of crank but no starting.

Mobile mechanic tested it and codes said immobilizer not recognising key so I had that part removed from ecm plus changed crank shaft sensor. It starts spot on now. I know the security issues about immobilized off and have that covered.

Next was we fitted a new turbo as the old ones actuator was seized for a long time.
The engine light would come on on long slow hills then go off when I eased off down gears.

Since getting it started again the engine light comes on at 3000 revs or if I give it a quick press on throttle.
Codes showed sensor and fuel regulator valves fault which I changed all 3 one after the other as faults kept showing. Once all 3 were changed codes showed clear and no faults. But engine light still coming on !

No sensors along exhaust system which I thought may be a hole somewhere kicking light on,
It's baffling us what it could be as it drives fine.

Any ideas what's next to try ?

The highlighted statement is somewhat imprecise. I assume you mean 1. Fuel pressure reulator. 2. HP fuel pressure sensor. 3. Manifold air pressure/temperature sensor.
I note that the turbo assembly has been replaced, otherwise I would be suspecting temporary manifold pressure spikes. Another remote possibility is that airflow through the intercooler is obstructed, and the manifold sensor is responding to temperature spikes.

There are six versions of the 2.8jtd, but if I discount the 8140.43n power version with variable turbo vanes, and those with thermal flange cold starting, the number is reduced. On the assumption of metal cannister fuel filter, and no EGR, I am attaching copies of my amended Fiat eLearn diagrams.

 

[Autoswan]

Thanks communication for replying.
I'll try to be clear on highlighted part.
First I changed fuel cut off injection system sensor / valve ? . Code still showing.
So changed fuel rail pressure sensor Still code showing.
So changed fuel pressure regulator control valve.
No codes showing now for any faults at all ?

But as I said the engine management light still comes on at 3000 revs steadily building up to that, or if I give throttle a quick burst.

I'll show mechanic the links you sent to see what he says.
Thanks very much for your input.

 

[Autoswan]

In order changed

 

[Communicator]

In order changed
View attachment 452047View attachment 452048


View attachment 452049

View attachment 452050View attachment 452051

I am 99.9% certain that the first object displayed above is the hp pump 3rd piston deactivation solenoid. If it was mounted on the upper face of the hp pump, then I am correct. (I have just peered under the bonnet of my 2.8jtd, but I would have to clean some crud away from the fixing, cap headed, srews to be certain.)

If as I assumed, your vehicle does not have EGR, then I suggest that you look at the manifold pressure/ temperature sensor which is mounted on the inlet manifold towards the vehicle RHS rear of the engine. Details attached. (Item K044 at bottom of diagram E5050-2b previously supplied.)

Note. from eLearn. The hp pump third piston is deactivated over 4000rpm when engine power is not increasing, This is carried out by operating the solenoid that I believe to be that which you have changed.

 

[Autoswan]

Thanks again for further reply
I'll check if it's got a dpf as cleaning it out was on the lust if it has one ?
I'll discuss what you've said with the mechanic when he calls next.

 

[Communicator]

Thanks again for further reply
I'll check if it's got a dpf as cleaning it out was on the lust if it has one ?
I'll discuss what you've said with the mechanic when he calls next.

I think that it will only have a DPF if EGR fitted. Apparently not a common option on the 2.8jtd. EGR fitting also uses mass air flow meter (debimeter). EGR may be identified by circular EGR valve at vehicle RHS rear of engine, and EGR cooler running across rear top of engine.
Follow this link for EGR details.

 

[Autoswan]

I think that it will only have a DPF if EGR fitted. Apparently not a common option on the 2.8jtd. EGR fitting also uses mass air flow meter (debimeter). EGR may be identified by circular EGR valve at vehicle RHS rear of engine, and EGR cooler running across rear top of engine.
Follow this link for EGR details.

Thanks . I think i recall mechanic mentioned no dpf on it early on this summer when we started trying to sort this ?
When he comes next with smoke machine I'll show him our conversation In case it helps .

 

[Communicator]

Thanks . I think i recall mechanic mentioned no dpf on it early on this summer when we started trying to sort this ?
When he comes next with smoke machine I'll show him our conversation In case it helps .

Please take note of second clause in my post #8 above. The "Absolute Pressure Sensor" seems to be relevant, and as I understand, it has not been changed. It seems possible that at maximum boost conditions, it could be delivering an output that is slightly too high.

 

[Autoswan]

Is it possible that disabling the immobilized from the ecu could be a reason that the engine light comes on at 3000 revs ?

 

[Autoswan]

Just got back from another garage who's code reader also shows no codes but engine lights still on !
So I called into fiat and spoke to an older experienced guy who suggested disconnecting a pipe from air filter and a box SGR10301 ON the side of engine, that he said has cured the engine light problem on older motorhomes like mine in the past ?

So worth a try next also will checkout the absolute pressure sensor you mentioned too.
Many thanks.

 

[Communicator]

Just got back from another garage who's code reader also shows no codes but engine lights still on !
So I called into fiat and spoke to an older experienced guy who suggested disconnecting a pipe from air filter and a box SGR10301 ON the side of engine, that he said has cured the engine light problem on older motorhomes like mine in the past ? View attachment 452391
So worth a try next also will checkout the absolute pressure sensor you mentioned too.
Many thanks.

Are you saying that the light is on permanently, or only over 3000rpm as previosly stated?

The parts shown in the above diagram are the oil vapour (blow by) separator and associated connections. The pipe (11) recommended for disconnection is the return to the air inlet for the waste gases, which include water vapour. To prevent the formation of ice crystals in low ambient temperatures, an "oil vapour heater" is included at the connection shown to the left of the nember "11". This heater can fail, but as it is not monitored by the ECU, no alarm is raised. However as the heater failure mode is frequently to go short circuit, it blows fuse F11 (Ignition Secondary Services). These services include the speedometer. On x250 multijet models the heater is supplied via the ECU, and fault codes are raised. Perhaps some confusion here, but I cannot see any direct connection between the blow by connection and the ECU illuminating the MIL indicator. In short I am sceptical, but I could be about too learn something new. The blow by connection is normally secured by "Ezyclik" clamps, which may require special pliers for removal and replacement.

The Bosch Absolute Pressure Sensor (Bosch 0 281 002 576) is available via Ebay for under £15. Easily accessable on engine, one bolt plus electrical connector, to remove/replace.

 

[bugsymike]

Just got back from another garage who's code reader also shows no codes but engine lights still on !
So I called into fiat and spoke to an older experienced guy who suggested disconnecting a pipe from air filter and a box SGR10301 ON the side of engine, that he said has cured the engine light problem on older motorhomes like mine in the past ? View attachment 452391
So worth a try next also will checkout the absolute pressure sensor you mentioned too.
Many thanks.

Always worth trying, but to me if it made a difference it would indicate an engine with serious back pressure due to piston wear and maybe blocked breathers.
None of the five 2.5 and 2.8 Sofim engined vans I had, had any issue in that direction and two had over 200k miles on the clock.

 

[Autoswan]

Are you saying that the light is on permanently, or only over 3000rpm as previosly stated?

The parts shown in the above diagram are the oil vapour (blow by) separator and associated connections. The pipe (11) recommended for disconnection is the return to the air inlet for the waste gases, which include water vapour. To prevent the formation of ice crystals in low ambient temperatures, an "oil vapour heater" is included at the connection shown to the left of the nember "11". This heater can fail, but as it is not monitored by the ECU, no alarm is raised. However as the heater failure mode is frequently to go short circuit, it blows fuse F11 (Ignition Secondary Services). These services include the speedometer. On x250 multijet models the heater is supplied via the ECU, and fault codes are raised. Perhaps some confusion here, but I cannot see any direct connection between the blow by connection and the ECU illuminating the MIL indicator. In short I am sceptical, but I could be about too learn something new. The blow by connection is normally secured by "Ezyclik" clamps, which may require special pliers for removal and replacement.

The Bosch Absolute Pressure Sensor (Bosch 0 281 002 576) is available via Ebay for under £15. Easily accessable on engine, one bolt plus electrical connector, to remove/replace.

The engine light goes off at preignition and stays off when I start the engine. But as soon as I press the throttle quickish or slowly build up the revs to 3000 the light comes on and stays on till I turn the engine off again.

 

[Autoswan]

Always worth trying, but to me if it made a difference it would indicate an engine with serious back pressure due to piston wear and maybe blocked breathers.
None of the five 2.5 and 2.8 Sofim engined vans I had, had any issue in that direction and two had over 200k miles on the clock.

The motor home drives well with plenty of power. I wouldn't think there is anything wrong if the engine light wasn't on ?
It's baffled a few mechanics now but the fiat guys idea is something new that I will try. Last resort will be leave it with fiat and tell them to let me know when it's all fixed and why it happened. While I sell a kidney or something to pay what I'll be dreading what they want for doing it

 

[spidermania]

While I sell a kidney or something to pay what I'll be dreading what they want for doing it.

The assumption will be you have money, (and you may well have) my fear when I bought my spider a few weeks ago is that assumption because it's happen to me before, little did they know I don't have a pot to wee in nor a window to throw it out of as they say. I'm on beans and rice. If my spider dies before I do I'll have it stolen and claim it on insurance.

Interesting enough I've had honest mechanics who saved me, it was the service writers who tried to rob me. One of them was a woman and she tried to get me for over 200USD extra until the mechanic called her out on it.
Another time a muzzie working at a Mercedes dealership tried to nail me for over 2k because that rat thought I had money. When I told him I didn't his whole attitude chaged towards me and he became condesending.

Suffice to say they would not honor a warranty repair, but once again saved by a decent mechanic who saw what that pig was trying to do to me.

 

[bugsymike]

The assumption will be you have money, (and you may well have) my fear when I bought my spider a few weeks ago is that assumption because it's happen to me before, little did they know I don't have a pot to wee in nor a window to throw it out of as they say. I'm on beans and rice. If my spider dies before I do I'll have it stolen and claim it on insurance.

Interesting enough I've had honest mechanics who saved me, it was the service writers who tried to rob me. One of them was a woman and she tried to get me for over 200USD extra until the mechanic called her out on it.
Another time a muzzie working at a Mercedes dealership tried to nail me for over 2k because that rat thought I had money. When I told him I didn't his whole attitude chaged towards me and he became condesending.

Suffice to say they would not honor a warranty repair, but once again saved by a decent mechanic who saw what that pig was trying to do to me.

This is why the modern Dealerships don't let you talk to the mechanics.
Many years ago we had a regular customer come into the workshop and ask us what we thought of the new cars in the showroom, we gave honest opinion and the arsehole went back to the showroom and told them, boss was not impressed.
We stood our ground and came to an agreement to say they "represented fair value for the money". We read that as you pay FA and you get FA!
By the way this was the Lada car in the late 1970s, the Fiat 124 saloon built under license in Russia.