Panda (Classic) Charmanda(er) The Panda

[blu73]

If you were to upgrade to a more modern fuel injected engine it would make sense to go to 1242 rather than 1108, i would look at P75 engine if I were you. And its the best base 8v injection FIRE for a turbo conversion - mpi meaning better fuel distribution on boost, oil squirters to keep pistons cooler, its just makes sense. And even if you weren't to turbo or tune it up then 75bhp is alot more than 54bhp for what would be basically the same amount of effort and money. Prob use less fuel than a 1108 too.

From a cento driver, a P60 in a cinq is no big deal nor much faster at all but uses less fuel with the extra low down torque around town, but a cinq with P75 engine starts to feel pretty rapid for a tiny car.

 

[Didge3]

It should slide in, but will drink more fuel.

I'd advise leaving it for another year or so if I were you personally

Surely a 1108 won't drink more than the 1.4 I had in my first car? Initially I wanted to fit the 1368c 8v engine into Char' sometime after Uni but it would be a lot more work and its quite hard to find breaking GP's for any reasonable price.

I would have put a bigger engine in her too had I kept her, so it's a thumbs up from me for a swap.

Don't worry about the gearbox as you already have a 5spd 999cc one, they are the same! It would probably be a good idea to recondition it while it was out though, seeing as you're so hard on it.

Engine mountings will be fine, but have you thought about whether to keep it carbed or go for spi?

I think Char' deserves some sort of sporty nature. I'd go SPI (maybe an MPI 1108 found in later Sei's but not sure what advantages/disadvantages that brings)

I thought the gearbox in Char' is a lower ratio 5spd to aid the 750 being able to have any shot at a hill start? Wouldn't it be destroyed by a 1108?

 

[Didge3]

If you were to upgrade to a more modern fuel injected engine it would make sense to go to 1242 rather than 1108, i would look at P75 engine if I were you. And its the best base 8v injection FIRE for a turbo conversion - mpi meaning better fuel distribution on boost, oil squirters to keep pistons cooler, its just makes sense. And even if you weren't to turbo or tune it up then 75bhp is alot more than 54bhp for what would be basically the same amount of effort and money. Prob use less fuel than a 1108 too.

From a cento driver, a P60 in a cinq is no big deal nor much faster at all but uses less fuel with the extra low down torque around town, but a cinq with P75 engine starts to feel pretty rapid for a tiny car.

True 54bhp isn't huge but considering that I'm currently running 34 (and that was a very long time ago...) it should be a noticeable improvement. If a P75 bolts in just as easy as a 1108 I'd have no issue, I'm just worrying about stripping out the somewhat feeble gearbox? I've only just started to look into this so I haven't read up much on it quite yet. I just know if I can save enough money and have it done over the summer I'd be happy

 

[Didge3]

This would be a perfect candidate....

 

[firstcar-Y10]

But if you're just engine swapping why not something like this
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FIAT-CINQ...ts_SM&fits=Model:Seicento&hash=item3cd57e186f
'Cento engines are 10 a penny and cheap.

 

[VmanC]

A 999cc gearbox is no stronger than Char's.

 

[blu73]

well, ultimately what i'm getting at is swapping to a P75 is basically the same task as fitting a 1108 spi engine, just you start with different bits. If it were a cinq/sei you were fitting it to then yes a 60 would be easier as you wouldn't have to touch the engine loom and could just leave the ecu etc well alone.

Being you are not starting with a fuel injected car, changing to one is gonna be the same difficulty whether you went for a 1108, 1242, spi or mpi - you need the engine, the loom, the ecu etc. You will have the same challenges to overcome - but one is a better engine in the first place. Its a no brainer to me, apart from a P60 or P55 (same as cinq/sei sporting spi) is cheaper and easier to find than a P75.

When it comes to gearboxes, i have no idea how the panda setup works so i am no help whatsoever.

 

[firstcar-Y10]

Swapping to the 'cento 1108 though you could still pretty easily run it off the carb though without having all the headache of converting to injection. Need to find a 999 carb though (or better still an 1108, they do exist on early mk2 Unos). Not the gains in fuel economy though.

 

[blu73]

MMm, no reason you can't run any of the FIREs on carbs though really, but (and no offence intended to you panda peeps here) carbs are prehistoric, fuel injection is better in every way. I like carbs and mechanical things in general over electronics but there is no denying injection is just superior to carbs. If i was going to the hassle of an engine swap in a panda i wouldn't even for a moment consider carbs myself. Thats not to say you couldn't get a really nice running engine with carbs or anything - i would imagine you could cut the P75 inlet and modify to take twin carbs if you so desired with probably decent results..

I don't really know enough about the ecu on a panda but could you not possibly use a det3 piggyback , which basically takes over the injection and timing etc etc leaving the stock ecu to deal with the rest of the sensors. (have a look at honeymonsters turbo sei thread)

 

[Didge3]

But if you're just engine swapping why not something like this
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FIAT-CINQ...ts_SM&fits=Model:Seicento&hash=item3cd57e186f
'Cento engines are 10 a penny and cheap.

I did think about just buying an engine but then I'd need to get any other parts separately, manifolds, throttle body etc. Buying a whole car that is only a few hundred more saves me all of that faff. Plus I'm going down the injection route rather than carbing the 1108

MMm, no reason you can't run any of the FIREs on carbs though really, but (and no offence intended to you panda peeps here) carbs are prehistoric, fuel injection is better in every way. I like carbs and mechanical things in general over electronics but there is no denying injection is just superior to carbs. If i was going to the hassle of an engine swap in a panda i wouldn't even for a moment consider carbs myself. Thats not to say you couldn't get a really nice running engine with carbs or anything - i would imagine you could cut the P75 inlet and modify to take twin carbs if you so desired with probably decent results..

I don't really know enough about the ecu on a panda but could you not possibly use a det3 piggyback , which basically takes over the injection and timing etc etc leaving the stock ecu to deal with the rest of the sensors. (have a look at honeymonsters turbo sei thread)

I think I'm definitely going injection route, as much as I enjoy a good carb if i'm putting an engine in that already has injection I might as well leave it as injection and just transfer the engine loom from the donor car. This will make things easier if I do intend to turbo the engine in a few years.
I really wanted to turbo Char's 750 at first but the amount of work wouldn't be worth it compared to an engine swap, I'd either have to convert her 750 to injection or turbo through the carb (possible of course but I can't see it being the most reliable system if its homemade... by me )

EDIT: Blu you may know the answer to this, what significant differences am I looking at between SPI 1108's in earlier Sei's and the later MPI's, other than the obvious multi-point injection. They don't produce more power so what are the pro's and con's?

 

[blu73]

Its was for emissions and the fact they needed OBDII port to comply with regs..

I have always steered clear of the mpi's myself purely becasue all the tuning stuff was developed for the spi so more stuff out there thats already tested.. Also you hear many nightmare stories about the newer micro-ecu found on some of the mpi's.

I believe the mpi's have a cam sensor whereas the spi doesn't.

But if you want to go down the turbo route, perhaps the mpi is a good idea, purely due to the fact woj is developing a plug and play turbo ecu for the mpi. There is a thread on it in cinq/sei section. He has managed to make the ecu from the new 1.1 panda understand boost and more recently even managed to make it control boost, all very clever stuff which until recently everyone said was impossible.

And as i said in previous post, mpi is much better for a turbo than the spi setup.

Linky: http://fiatforum.com/cinquecento-seicento/329065-seicento-mpi-turbo-ecu.html

 

[blu73]

Another thing i would say is the 1108 is a higher revving engine than the 1242.. This is merely due to shorter stroke which in turn means slower piston speeds at the same engine speed.

I can't remember who i was talking to on facebook a while back but they were saying that a 1108 combined with (iirc) a panda 850 crank makes an undersquare engine. this meaning very short throw on the crank, meaning slower piston speeds meaning really really high theoretical rev limit.. F1 engines are undersquare and this is one reason they can rev so high. All that is probably a bit too complicated for you (and me) to fully understand but interesting nonetheless.

 

[Didge3]

The lack of Thanks button in MM threads annoy me but thanks for all the info. Earlier Sei's with SPI are easier to find but I will consider an MPI in which case.

Also I assume you meant Panda 750 crank rather than 850? If so that could be fun
My rev counter only reads up to 8000rpm but its a good starting point

 

[blu73]

yeah i think i read many more text books on engines before i can understand how to calculate all the random things required to build my own engine from scratch.. but actually finding the exact specs on engine internals in itself is a tall order.

I look forward to all this happening, is exactly what i will be doing if/when i get a panda one day. Turbo's are life enrichment

 

[Didge3]

yeah i think i read many more text books on engines before i can understand how to calculate all the random things required to build my own engine from scratch.. but actually finding the exact specs on engine internals in itself is a tall order.

I look forward to all this happening, is exactly what i will be doing if/when i get a panda one day. Turbo's are life enrichment

I will keep the 750 engine and one day, when I have more than one car (well maybe more than one Panda....) I will turbo the 750 and see if I can turn it into some sort of crazy high revving thing

Again, I hope that I can do it over the summer next year, but we'll see. I need to find someone that can help with all the wiring first (I'm no good at any of that... )

 

[Didge3]

Just received a text from Mother.

"Your Panda was looking sad outside so I went out, started first turn of the key!"

 

[VmanC]

Another thing i would say is the 1108 is a higher revving engine than the 1242.. This is merely due to shorter stroke which in turn means slower piston speeds at the same engine speed.

I can't remember who i was talking to on facebook a while back but they were saying that a 1108 combined with (iirc) a panda 850 crank makes an undersquare engine. this meaning very short throw on the crank, meaning slower piston speeds meaning really really high theoretical rev limit.. F1 engines are undersquare and this is one reason they can rev so high. All that is probably a bit too complicated for you (and me) to fully understand but interesting nonetheless.

I always thought an engine was known as oversquare if the throw of the crank was less than the bore? you're right about it giving slower engine speeds, with a long throw crank the piston is pulled down the bore alot quicker as it has to travel further but in the same amount of time.

 

[blu73]

oversquare undersquare... your probably right, its a hazy memory but the principle of it stuck in my head.. Quite fancy the idea of a little fiat with a turbo and 10k redline

 

[jatkinson]

This should be a good project to watch ,

as blu said stick the 1.2 8 v in , if you need to know much about them engines go to the cento section we all know stuff about the enignes in there (Y)

 

[Didge3]

This should be a good project to watch ,

as blu said stick the 1.2 8 v in , if you need to know much about them engines go to the cento section we all know stuff about the enignes in there (Y)

The only thing I worry about with a 1242 from a Punto is my poor Panda gearbox, not really sure how it'll cope with 60+BHP for extended time

EDIT: This in theory would be a good candidate, I could nab the engine, its loom and ECU and mate it to the Panda 'box but 60hp is almost double the output of my 750 and therefore might be a bit too much for the gearbox. If I could put the Punto engine and its gearbox in the Panda I wouldn't hesitate but that probably involves modifying gearbox mounts and swapping the rod change to cable change, I doubt the Puntos would just happen to fit into a Panda 10 years older than it....