Technical 500 Euro 6 Problems

[306maxi]

https://www.fiatforum.com/500/351651-2014-fiat-500-1-2-acceleration-issues.html


Poll has been posted. Please do NOT go linking it everywhere or sending it to people who you know have issues. For it to be a relevant poll we don't need it to be biased in this manner, this is to help people with issues see whether this affects all 2014 cars or just a few or a lot or almost all etc etc. Don't screw with the poll please

 

[306maxi]

Just in case you're wondering, I've added an option for older owners to participate in the poll because idiots like to click buttons and I wouldn't want spurious data from owners of older trouble free cars skewing the poll

 

[jrkitching]

I'll say it again, this whole Euro 6 thing is a red herring, a coincidence and nothing more.

Don't be so quick to think this is a red herring.

Stage II of Euro 6 imposes new and very strict real world particulate limits for petrol cars of 6 x 10^11 particles per kilometre. Manufacturers can delay adoption of stage II until 1 January 2017, but some are choosing to implement this earlier. Mercedes have already modified at least the A class petrol cars to meet this limit and it is entirely possible that Fiat have done the same.

Rumour of a two position clutch sensor to modify the mapping as the clutch is released is entirely consistent with Fiat attempting to control particulates by modifying the fuelling as the engine comes under load.

There's much more to Euro 6 than the headline numbers in the tables.

 

[306maxi]

Appears to only apply for direct injection engines though from what I've seen?

 

[jrkitching]

Appears to only apply for direct injection engines though from what I've seen?

AIUI, the particulate mass standards only apply to direct injection vehicles, but the total number of particulates per km limits will apply to all petrol vehicles from 2017.

Picking the last bits of detail out of the relevant directives isn't easy & they do get changed from time to time. I've also heard it said that the testing procedures are going to be changed to better reflect real world driving conditions and that may cause manufacturers to have a rethink about how their engines are managed and mapped.

As I've said before, I don't know any more than anyone else about what might, or might not have been done with the latest cars, but it seems to me that Fiat wouldn't have fitted a dual position clutch sensor, with all the added cost and complexity, without good reason.

If. indeed, that is actually what has been done .

Time will tell.

 

[Alfie14]

........


You might wonder why I'm making a point of this...... but all I'm trying to do is point people in the right direction. This hasn't been done to reduce emissions or save fuel. This is something else and by walking into the dealership and insisting that the issue is the car being Euro 6 compliant is simply giving the dealership a lead which is going to be a dead end and your issue won't get resolved.

Just to be clear it's the dealer making the connection to Euro 6 not me :bang:

The only thing we are guilty of is buying one of these cars.

Thanks for going to the trouble of setting up the poll. I voted, don't think I've screwed it up

 

[GrandeGuy]

But what if we opt out of the EU,
will that mean we can go back to carbs and Kjetronic

 

[Alfie14]

Last week I registered our problem with VOSA.
I've received a call from Martin Ryder, details below, who intends to progress this issue with Fiat. He has given me authority to post his details here and has asked if anyone else experiencing the same issues could contact him directly to assist with his investigations.


Martin Ryder, Automotive Engineer - Defect Investigation Driver andVehicle Standards Agency, Vehicle Safety Branch, 1st Floor, Berkeley House,Croydon Street, BRISTOL BS5 0DA, Phone: 0117 954 3486 Mobile: 07767 816 648
[email protected]


@306maxi. It may be worth putting his contact details in the Poll post?

 

[deef1]

I love our 500....she always makes me smile when I get in, i feel happy when I drive her but I fear we'll be seeing this message on the new tft displays! (my own work, not stolen from the net)

 

[Alfie14]

After further investigation by the garage there are still no clues on why it is so poor. A 'good' 1.2 has been used as a reference for our car and ECU data collected and compared. However with the equipment available at the garage no discernable differences has been found. It was not possible to actually swap ECUs in the end due to the start up codes. The garage have stated that our car's performance is unacceptable and we have rejected the vehicle and undone the deal. Our garage intends to take the vehicle to fiat tech in Slough to find out what is going on. But they like us do not think a customer car should be used to evaluate a problem that fiat obviously have. We have also spoken to another dealer in our area in person who has confirm that fiat do have a problem with some of these 1.2 vehicles even if officially fiat are saying "change you driving style". We are pleased with the support from the garage but utterly frustrated with Fiat's attututide.

I would advise anyone buying a new 500 / Panda with a 1.2 engine to test drive their new vehicle before parting with their cash. Not all garages will take the approach ours has taken,

 

[GrandeGuy]

After further investigation by the garage there are still no clues on why it is so poor. A 'good' 1.2 has been used as a reference for our car and ECU data collected and compared. However with the equipment available at the garage no discernable differences has been found. It was not possible to actually swap ECUs in the end due to the start up codes. The garage have stated that our car's performance is unacceptable and we have rejected the vehicle and undone the deal. Our garage intends to take the vehicle to fiat tech in Slough to find out what is going on. But they like us do not think a customer car should be used to evaluate a problem that fiat obviously have. We have also spoken to another dealer in our area in person who has confirm that fiat do have a problem with some of these 1.2 vehicles even if officially fiat are saying "change you driving style". We are pleased with the support from the garage but utterly frustrated with Fiat's attututide.

I would advise anyone buying a new 500 / Panda with a 1.2 engine to test drive their new vehicle before parting with their cash. Not all garages will take the approach ours has taken,

Do we get a garage name mention?
Just incase some people are getting
Fobbed off?

 

[AntinBrighton]

That does not bode well for the long term life of the clutch, and it won't help the fuel economy, either .

Hi. I have a brand new 1.2 500 bought in January and have the same problem. I have returned to pdh in Hassocks twice because it is dangerous on hill starts. You simply can't get it out of the torque deadspot when the clutch engages on a big hill. PDH tell me it's performing within the Euro 6 guidelines. BUT 1. I test drove a Euro 5 before buying it and no-one told me I was getting a different engine. 2. I don't think you can sell a car that doesn't start on a hill (not fit for purpose) and 3. I bought this for my 17 year-old to learn to drive in and this is seriously compromising her confidence. Is anyone else thinking of taking this legal in some way with Fiat or getting non-Fiat software remapping done to solve it outside Fiat? Any experience appreciated...

 

[306maxi]

As I've said before the Euro 6 thing is a bit of a red herring IMHO. If it were truly caused by Euro 6 mapping then this would happen on all new 500's.

IMHO the best thing to do would be to take it to another dealer that isn't staffed by ****wits. There's a problem here for sure and it can be fixed.

 

[Mercky]

As I've said before the Euro 6 thing is a bit of a red herring IMHO. If it were truly caused by Euro 6 mapping then this would happen on all new 500's.

IMHO the best thing to do would be to take it to another dealer that isn't staffed by ****wits. There's a problem here for sure and it can be fixed.

.......if you know what the problem is!

 

[Alfie14]

Hi. I have a brand new 1.2 500 bought in January and have the same problem. I have returned to pdh in Hassocks twice because it is dangerous on hill starts. You simply can't get it out of the torque deadspot when the clutch engages on a big hill. PDH tell me it's performing within the Euro 6 guidelines. BUT 1. I test drove a Euro 5 before buying it and no-one told me I was getting a different engine. 2. I don't think you can sell a car that doesn't start on a hill (not fit for purpose) and 3. I bought this for my 17 year-old to learn to drive in and this is seriously compromising her confidence. Is anyone else thinking of taking this legal in some way with Fiat or getting non-Fiat software remapping done to solve it outside Fiat? Any experience appreciated...

When we had our 1.2 with the same problems, I looked into what action we could take. I thought about remapping because originally I thought this might be the problem. However for two reasons I did not pursue this. (1) Warranty would be voided. (2) All the mapping agents I contacted did not yet have the codes for the new ECUs that are fitted to the Euro 6 cars. This was in May14.


In terms of legal action, I guess it would be a long battle. Although you didn't know you were buying a Euro 6 car, I think manufacturers have the right to change this type of specification.

.. its probably in the 'small print'.


I sympathise 100% with your situation, we rejected our car on the grounds it was not fit for purpose and the garage couldn't fix it, even though Fiat said there was nothing wrong.

 

[306maxi]

.......if you know what the problem is!

A dealer will only find the problem if they don't take the easy way out and say "oh sorry, it's Euro 6's fault..... Can't do anything."

 

[AntinBrighton]

Last week I registered our problem with VOSA.
I've received a call from Martin Ryder, details below, who intends to progress this issue with Fiat. He has given me authority to post his details here and has asked if anyone else experiencing the same issues could contact him directly to assist with his investigations.


Martin Ryder, Automotive Engineer - Defect Investigation Driver andVehicle Standards Agency, Vehicle Safety Branch, 1st Floor, Berkeley House,Croydon Street, BRISTOL BS5 0DA, Phone: 0117 954 3486 Mobile: 07767 816 648
[email protected]


@306maxi. It may be worth putting his contact details in the Poll post?

Hello
So I rang the VOSA guy mentioned in an earlier post (thank you) and he told me they tested a bottom of the range 500 with 4 heavy people and it performed fine on big hills in Bristol. The performance is this new clutch arrangement. The thing is that I don't think my dealership really understands it and no-one told me about it despte returning the car twice. Took the car to big hills in Brighton yesterday and now it works fine as long as you do the following:

From standstill on a hill.
1. Stick accelerator foot away from pedal.
2. Lift clutch to biting point and the car (the clutch) will match revs to the incline. You don't touch the accelerator.
3. Drop the handbrake and as the car begins to roll pick the revs up on the accelerator and off you go.

Mine is still slightly sluggish on big hills at the pick up point, but its way better. If you drive it like a conventional car, picking the revs up on the accelerator while the clutch is trying to do the same thig, that's where they cancel each other out and the thing just goes no where.

Would I have bought this car if I had known? NJo becaus eit doesn't hep me teach my daughter hill starts. Would it help if the dealer explained this when I picked up the cra. Yes a million times. Am I happy now? Much happier. I think Fiat have tried to fix a problem we didn't need fixing but hey, it's quite fun once you get your head around it.

Thanks for you comments and help.
Ant

 

[AntinBrighton]

Hi Alfie

ThJ YOU FOR CONTACT DETAILS. I rang the VOSA guy and he told me they tested a bottom of the range 500 with 4 heavy people and it performed fine on big hills in Bristol. The performance is this new clutch arrangement. I took the car to big hills in Brighton yesterday and now it works fine as long as you do the following:

From standstill on a hill.
1. Stick accelerator foot away from pedal.
2. Lift clutch to biting point and the car (the clutch) will match revs to the incline. You don't touch the accelerator.
3. Drop the handbrake and as the car begins to roll pick the revs up and off you go.

Hope that helps
Ant

 

[zanes]

From standstill on a hill.
1. Stick accelerator foot away from pedal.
2. Lift clutch to biting point and the car (the clutch) will match revs to the incline. You don't touch the accelerator.
3. Drop the handbrake and as the car begins to roll pick the revs up and off you go.

Isn't this just "how to do a hillstart in any car"?

 

[GrandeGuy]

Isn't this just "how to do a hillstart in any car"?

No imagine starting on a steep hill but not touching the throttle at all!
Must be a strange feeling.