Technical Ducato P0401 P0402 P0236 P0238 and limp mode its 2017 Euro 6, EGR changed, What do I check next
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Technical Ducato P0401 P0402 P0236 P0238 and limp mode its 2017 Euro 6, EGR changed, What do I check next
theoneandonly
Established member
Niko there are 2 german members early on in this thread @Thomas Lypold and @kangexpress
The LPEGr cooler is serious blocked no lpegr valve control basicaky on or off and the lowest temperature ive seen
Acceptable
DPF Values quite low
Fiat limmit is+- 2 at least one is iffy.
The LPEGr cooler is serious blocked no lpegr valve control basicaky on or off and the lowest temperature ive seen
Acceptable
DPF Values quite low
Fiat limmit is+- 2 at least one is iffy.
Niko94
Member
Thank you for your effort and work. I'll take care of the EGR issues first, then I'll move on to injectors. I'm thinking about shutting down the EGR system completely. I will get in touch with a tuner. I will give him the info with the double EGR Valve. It is clear to me that an EGR OFF is not legal. Completely closed EGR valves are important when programming AGR out, right?
Fredastaire
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@Niko94 and @theoneandonly reference the injectors, might it be an idea to run several tanks through with injector cleaner as my choice to use the Millers. Maybe they will self clean to a better state with only a rather small money outlay.
Niko94
Member
I've already read a few posts about this in the thread here. I'll definitely try cleaning it first. Thank you!
theoneandonly
Established member
I started with Liqui moly diesel purge and now also used Milers for a year but my leak off tests show one is absolutely duff. I would like to put a scope on the crankshaft sensor or its connector at the ecu end if i knew the pin outs.
BoultsG
Member
As an update to my own scenario;
For background, our MH is a 2018 Rapido 696F built on a Fiat Ducato Chassis. The engine is an X290 2.3 150 Multijet with a comformatic gearbox. We bought it from new so all the miles completed are ours and we know its full history. Our MH has done 51k miles and has traveled in Europe, Morroco, and the UK including the Islands of Scotland. So a large variance in terrain, temperature, etc.
We also have a Blue Spark Engine tuning device, Early in our MH purchase we found the uphill torque in the mid to high gear range pretty useless. The device we have works really well and we certainly notice the difference.
The start of our 401/ 238 and finally the 402 fault codes began on our journey to Greece in April this year. We had done around 47k miles when we first started to receive the 401/ 238 fault codes. The symptoms were pretty much the same as most of those described in earlier posts on this thread. We would start a journey and within the first 10 minutes (normally when in 4th gear) a 401 followed by a 238 fault would occur. I already had a basic OBD reader so I was able to clear the fault codes and continue our journey which in most cases continued without further fault codes occuring. Some days later we started to receive the 402 fault, easily identified by the ridiculously slow limp mode the vehicle is put in.
On arrival in Greece, I started to carry out some research (a lot of research actually) on the fault codes and came across this forum, and thankfully this thread, started by @Fredastaire. Beginning with the 'easy' options first and before we started our return trip to the UK some months later, I replaced the MAP and upon arrival to the UK, I replaced the Turbo Solenoid. Individually the changes I carried out made no difference. Each journey I made I would trigger 401/ 402 and 238 codes. I finally bit the bullet and invested in the MES software and OBD hardware that was mentioned by @Fredastaire and @theoneandonly.
I carried out a number of journeys running MES and sent the data over to @theoneandonly for analysis. After numerous journeys and analyses, it became clear in @theoneandonly opinion, my LP EGR Cooler was blocked. These are the final LP EGR graphs taken on 18/11/2023
@theoneandonly can provide a more technical explanation though as I understand the actual position of the LP EGR should be between 0 and 4.7 and also somewhere in between. These graphs show the position hitting and exceeding 4.7 more often than not. Indicating a potentially blocked LP EGR Cooler.
I purchased a replacement cooler via eBay and for reference took a picture of the filter just inside the cooler as shown below this one is quite clear.
On the 21st of November, our MH went into the garage to have the LP EGR Cooler replaced. Not an easy task as those who have already gone through this stage can testify. 2 days later (we also had a few other jobs done) we collected our MH. I kept the old cooler which I will clean in preparation for an inevitable replacement further down the road. Hopefully in more than 50k miles!!.
I took a few pictures of the old LP EGR Cooler and as shown in the following photos the cooler is pretty sooty I was also surprised by its weight. It seemed to be heavier than its replacement weighing in at 1526 grams.
I haven't had the opportunity to carry out a lengthy journey though we have one planned before the end of the week. After collection from the garage, I set up MES and carried out a few shorter journeys. @theoneandonly has the data from those journeys and I await his interpretation. Whilst waiting and out of curiosity I loaded the data myself and produced the following graph.
With my very limited knowledge, I can see that there is definitely a change. I will wait for @theoneandonly to come back with the proper analysis.
In summary, and for our scenario; was having the LP EGR Cooler replaced worth the cost and time? The initial data points towards the 'yes it was' answer. Some longer runs in the next few weeks will hopefully enforce that answer. As with @theoneandonly and @Fredastaire, I am running our MH with an additive and will continue to do so.
For background, our MH is a 2018 Rapido 696F built on a Fiat Ducato Chassis. The engine is an X290 2.3 150 Multijet with a comformatic gearbox. We bought it from new so all the miles completed are ours and we know its full history. Our MH has done 51k miles and has traveled in Europe, Morroco, and the UK including the Islands of Scotland. So a large variance in terrain, temperature, etc.
We also have a Blue Spark Engine tuning device, Early in our MH purchase we found the uphill torque in the mid to high gear range pretty useless. The device we have works really well and we certainly notice the difference.
The start of our 401/ 238 and finally the 402 fault codes began on our journey to Greece in April this year. We had done around 47k miles when we first started to receive the 401/ 238 fault codes. The symptoms were pretty much the same as most of those described in earlier posts on this thread. We would start a journey and within the first 10 minutes (normally when in 4th gear) a 401 followed by a 238 fault would occur. I already had a basic OBD reader so I was able to clear the fault codes and continue our journey which in most cases continued without further fault codes occuring. Some days later we started to receive the 402 fault, easily identified by the ridiculously slow limp mode the vehicle is put in.
On arrival in Greece, I started to carry out some research (a lot of research actually) on the fault codes and came across this forum, and thankfully this thread, started by @Fredastaire. Beginning with the 'easy' options first and before we started our return trip to the UK some months later, I replaced the MAP and upon arrival to the UK, I replaced the Turbo Solenoid. Individually the changes I carried out made no difference. Each journey I made I would trigger 401/ 402 and 238 codes. I finally bit the bullet and invested in the MES software and OBD hardware that was mentioned by @Fredastaire and @theoneandonly.
I carried out a number of journeys running MES and sent the data over to @theoneandonly for analysis. After numerous journeys and analyses, it became clear in @theoneandonly opinion, my LP EGR Cooler was blocked. These are the final LP EGR graphs taken on 18/11/2023
@theoneandonly can provide a more technical explanation though as I understand the actual position of the LP EGR should be between 0 and 4.7 and also somewhere in between. These graphs show the position hitting and exceeding 4.7 more often than not. Indicating a potentially blocked LP EGR Cooler.
I purchased a replacement cooler via eBay and for reference took a picture of the filter just inside the cooler as shown below this one is quite clear.
On the 21st of November, our MH went into the garage to have the LP EGR Cooler replaced. Not an easy task as those who have already gone through this stage can testify. 2 days later (we also had a few other jobs done) we collected our MH. I kept the old cooler which I will clean in preparation for an inevitable replacement further down the road. Hopefully in more than 50k miles!!.
I took a few pictures of the old LP EGR Cooler and as shown in the following photos the cooler is pretty sooty I was also surprised by its weight. It seemed to be heavier than its replacement weighing in at 1526 grams.
I haven't had the opportunity to carry out a lengthy journey though we have one planned before the end of the week. After collection from the garage, I set up MES and carried out a few shorter journeys. @theoneandonly has the data from those journeys and I await his interpretation. Whilst waiting and out of curiosity I loaded the data myself and produced the following graph.
In summary, and for our scenario; was having the LP EGR Cooler replaced worth the cost and time? The initial data points towards the 'yes it was' answer. Some longer runs in the next few weeks will hopefully enforce that answer. As with @theoneandonly and @Fredastaire, I am running our MH with an additive and will continue to do so.
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Hi, everyone, back again with an update. My turbo was found to have foreign matter in it, suspected filter mounting bolt, this caused damage to th eturbo impellors. The turbo, heat exchanger and all associated pipes & hoses replaced. Can some one tell me what the fiat part number FI0001382428080 is, it just says "heat exchanger"
Fredastaire
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That number can be located on eBay as a genuine Fiat part number for the intercooler.
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It makes sense as it's the first items down the pipes from the turbo so any debris would be caught there.
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So, Intercooler it is.
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It makes sense as it's the first items down the pipes from the turbo so any debris would be caught there.
.
So, Intercooler it is.
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@Fredastaire thanks for info. I’ve tried to do a search on eBay but couldn’t find a genuine part. I’m just curious to the gist of genuine part as I was charged @£1000.
Fredastaire
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NEW INTERCOOLER FIAT DUCATO 2,0 2,2 2,3 3,0 HDI JTD M-JTD 2015-2019 1382428080 on UK eBay for £299.99.
Other sellers are advertising top make replacements for far far less money.
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For others reading this post this intercooler part is a small but long radiator that clips in place under the main coolant radiator and has large diameter air hoses left and right fastened with jubilee style hose clips. It's a standard item to need to remove and flush out with solvent. Equally it's a normal part to need to change if hit by road stone chips.
Other sellers are advertising top make replacements for far far less money.
.
For others reading this post this intercooler part is a small but long radiator that clips in place under the main coolant radiator and has large diameter air hoses left and right fastened with jubilee style hose clips. It's a standard item to need to remove and flush out with solvent. Equally it's a normal part to need to change if hit by road stone chips.
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@Fredastaire “NEW INTERCOOLER FIAT DUCATO 2,0 2,2 2,3 3,0 HDI JTD M-JTD 2015-2019 1382428080 on UK eBay for £299.99.” Thanks for the info. Do you know what the OEM manufacturer is? This is good info if I ever damage mine on the road.
Poachersmoon
Member
Attached my template 5 files for 2 quick runs. 2nd one was on the motorway but in traffic and only a minute or so. Will try get a better log this afternoon. This is with EGR delete.
theoneandonly
Established member
1ST comment the LPEGR is not opening (egr delete) temperature getting to 40C but now irrellavent from data
HPEGR also not opening.
file 2 only just got warm.
Differential pressure sensor fine
DPF temps ok ( f2 not upto temp)
injectors within Fiat tolerances.
Poachersmoon
Member
@theoneandonly - Thank you. The injectors was what i was most concerned about which may have had a build up on. Ill try get a better run this afternoon. But may have to wait until i do my trip in about 10 days which is a 5 hour trip. Now that i have found and used the templates.
I manually ticked what was required, i tried to use the template 5, but when i press ok, it still just shows all options? I must be doing something NOOB.
I manually ticked what was required, i tried to use the template 5, but when i press ok, it still just shows all options? I must be doing something NOOB.
theoneandonly
Established member
Manualy ticking is fine . the guide with the template in seems to have lost some detail. to save a template press ctl X (x being a number 0-9) I have a template 4 general biased to regen. If i could get 30 pids id be happy. to use a template (that has been saved) press X if no red selection come up try pressing ctl S before closing. for The f3 the engine was just about warm enough.@theoneandonly - Thank you. The injectors was what i was most concerned about which may have had a build up on. Ill try get a better run this afternoon. But may have to wait until i do my trip in about 10 days which is a 5 hour trip. Now that i have found and used the templates.
I manually ticked what was required, i tried to use the template 5, but when i press ok, it still just shows all options? I must be doing something NOOB.
Knutseloris
New member
Hello everybody,
I've just read the whole thread as i'm trying to resolve the same issue.
I've ordered an OBD scanner and will be logging my car this weekend.
the van is a 2019 180hp twin egr model.
i received the fault at 90k km, at that moment the car was warm. i got the engine light, but no limp mode. I then parked the van.
when i restarted, the engine was cold and would barely run. i guess this is the 'strangeling' of the turbo, because the fresh air closed of ? i dont know.
i checked the obd with a cheap reader and i was getting the 401 code. after some googling i decided to take out the LP EGR and test/clean it. is was a little bit dirty but working fine.
FYI @Fredastaire, i took out the LP EGR without removing the sub-frame. it was very difficult, but it took around 4 hours ( disassembly + assembly ). i did it this way because i didn't have a lift at that moment.
so i put it back, thinking it would be something else. ( i didn't check the cooler, because i didn't know there was one. )
for six months i've been driving like this. it didn't bother me, and for reasons i couldn't go without the van for too long.
beginning of december i brought the van to the service center for cambelt change, and asked if they could check what's giving the engine light. they told me they wanted to replace the LP EGR, costing 3500euro. I declined.
now i want to resolve it because the MOT in belgium made a remark of producing too much sooth. the van passed, but only after 5 tries.
this weekend i will log the MES results, and return with results.
the options i'm thinking about now are:
fixing everything as standard ( 7k in parts ? )
ecu map to turn of EGR
physically remove the moving parts from the LP EGR so the throttle doesn't close.
thanks for the info you guys provided already, this has cleared a lot of things up for me.
I've just read the whole thread as i'm trying to resolve the same issue.
I've ordered an OBD scanner and will be logging my car this weekend.
the van is a 2019 180hp twin egr model.
i received the fault at 90k km, at that moment the car was warm. i got the engine light, but no limp mode. I then parked the van.
when i restarted, the engine was cold and would barely run. i guess this is the 'strangeling' of the turbo, because the fresh air closed of ? i dont know.
i checked the obd with a cheap reader and i was getting the 401 code. after some googling i decided to take out the LP EGR and test/clean it. is was a little bit dirty but working fine.
FYI @Fredastaire, i took out the LP EGR without removing the sub-frame. it was very difficult, but it took around 4 hours ( disassembly + assembly ). i did it this way because i didn't have a lift at that moment.
so i put it back, thinking it would be something else. ( i didn't check the cooler, because i didn't know there was one. )
for six months i've been driving like this. it didn't bother me, and for reasons i couldn't go without the van for too long.
beginning of december i brought the van to the service center for cambelt change, and asked if they could check what's giving the engine light. they told me they wanted to replace the LP EGR, costing 3500euro. I declined.
now i want to resolve it because the MOT in belgium made a remark of producing too much sooth. the van passed, but only after 5 tries.
this weekend i will log the MES results, and return with results.
the options i'm thinking about now are:
fixing everything as standard ( 7k in parts ? )
ecu map to turn of EGR
physically remove the moving parts from the LP EGR so the throttle doesn't close.
thanks for the info you guys provided already, this has cleared a lot of things up for me.
theoneandonly
Established member
Once you've got multiscan sorted you need to do a data collection run with my template 5 . then we have a state in the ground and can asses what is happenning.
The important part of this is the quality of your injectors hence the need for data collection. Another factor is the software version, if you still have an old version it will still overfuel especialy durring regen (which i think is the crux of the matter) After initial diagnossis run a different template is required to monitor regen and the DPF.
If you have your own facilities and ability to remove the LPEGR cooler, then for the lowest cost i would concider a new LPEGRcooler (keep old one and clean for next replacement) and monitor regularly with MES. Durring this period first use an injector cleaner then a fuel aditive eg Millers eco. THen periodicaly (best estimate 2 years) remove replace the LPEGR cooler with a clean one. This regime is currently used by @Fredastaire . This is the lowest cost if you are doing the work I would
remove, clean HPEGR
remove, clean inlet manifold and throttle body
remove, clean LPEGR and cooler
replace DPF
All dependent on software version and if comformatic
you will need updates on both ecu engine to V32 gbox to ??
if manual to V28 or V32 depending on garage. If in the UK they wont update unless you have codes present (if this is equipment based or "management" i dont know.
The important part of this is the quality of your injectors hence the need for data collection. Another factor is the software version, if you still have an old version it will still overfuel especialy durring regen (which i think is the crux of the matter) After initial diagnossis run a different template is required to monitor regen and the DPF.
If you have your own facilities and ability to remove the LPEGR cooler, then for the lowest cost i would concider a new LPEGRcooler (keep old one and clean for next replacement) and monitor regularly with MES. Durring this period first use an injector cleaner then a fuel aditive eg Millers eco. THen periodicaly (best estimate 2 years) remove replace the LPEGR cooler with a clean one. This regime is currently used by @Fredastaire . This is the lowest cost if you are doing the work I would
remove, clean HPEGR
remove, clean inlet manifold and throttle body
remove, clean LPEGR and cooler
replace DPF
All dependent on software version and if comformatic
you will need updates on both ecu engine to V32 gbox to ??
if manual to V28 or V32 depending on garage. If in the UK they wont update unless you have codes present (if this is equipment based or "management" i dont know.
Fredastaire
Member
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@Knutseloris I agree with @theoneandonly comments above.
Before buying / changing any parts it's critical to do the test analysis runs with Multiecuscan; only then will you know the state of your injectors and know if the cooler is blocked.
@Knutseloris may I ask clarification on which EGR you have cleaned? It it the top front one (HP EGR) or the back one that is sandwiched between the engine and the bulkhead, (LP EGR).
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Much that I know where the LP EGR is situated, I just cannot figure out how to reach it for removal.
Before buying / changing any parts it's critical to do the test analysis runs with Multiecuscan; only then will you know the state of your injectors and know if the cooler is blocked.
@Knutseloris may I ask clarification on which EGR you have cleaned? It it the top front one (HP EGR) or the back one that is sandwiched between the engine and the bulkhead, (LP EGR).
.
Much that I know where the LP EGR is situated, I just cannot figure out how to reach it for removal.
Knutseloris
New member
I will do the analysis before i buy/change parts.
I cleaned both the EGR's but again, the LP EGR is very difficukt to reach. I removed it by reaching around the subframe. Its faster than removing the subframe, but provides a lot of hand cramps.
Next i will take it out i will probably remove the dpf and subframe as well to reach the cooler
