General Top Gear and more.

[306maxi]

Firstly sorry to here of the theft, not good.

Therefore some of the prices advertised for 2 year old cars privately I've seen are higher than dealers, doesn't take much to work out they will not sell. EVO mag had a small bit two months ago on buying them 2nd hand with input from Rockingham cars who had one for sale at 20months old already having had two owners with 12k on the clock with 4k off new price including the extras. Think it was 12.5k from the 16.5k paid new. It was stated by Rockingham that this is actually fairly representative of the 500A having multiply owners in short time frame, which they must love as getting nice mark up on every sale!

Then you have the poor PCP deals popular these days as it gives a set final value figure and you pay x amount per month. Abarths was something like a 6k a year mileage cap to get this value a deposit of about £2k & £239 a month @ 5.9% interest. Compare this to getting a Clio cup for £999 deposit & £199 a month on 1.9% interest. So anything gained by any slightly higher residual is lost and then some by higher interest rate. We did consider it very briefly when looking to replace our FTO GPversionR, but bought a 2nd Civic Type-R.

I noticed my local Peugeot garage has a launch edition 500 for sale & have dropped the price by a grand in last 4weeks to try & sell it, started at £12495 now down to £11495.

Ditto re: the theft. Not good

Always interesting to read your well thought out posts J333EVO

I will sound like a broken record here but I've never seen the point in PCP deals After 3 years if you don't pay the balloon payment then you've got nothing to show for your money which just seems completely bonkers. I guess some people have got into the habit of paying x amount for a car a month and figure they can pay that forever so it's acceptable to them. Craziness!

 

[J333EVO]

The real beauty of the PCP deals is you pay a set figure get a minimum trade in value or final payment fee to pay at the end. Easy bit is car manufacturers can then manipulate future values by fixing the trade in value high as that also means high 2nd hand values as no cheap cars to sell on.

Most folk stay with the brand & trade up using that set minimum trade in value often higher than you could achieve in a private sale & with salary generally increasing think it's fine to go a little higher on monthly payment next time round, making dealer v happy. It's a cycle favoured by the manufacturers who will supplement the cost to the dealer, thats why they can be very cost effective like the Renault deal @ 1.9% interest. If you say had the full amount available you should still take up the deal as you should be able to invest the rest of the money at a higher interest rate & actualy make something from it.

Fiat have only recently twigged to this but the deals they offered and the ridiculous low mileages on the deal rule out pretty much any normal driver, though the mileage fee wasn't too high iirc

It also allows folk to say use the £1-3k they have saved up to buy a new car rather than an old one. A girl I work with bought a Mazda 2 on a PCP deal & it includes all servicing & road tax so she pays for nothing but consumables for I think £138 a month with a very small initial deposit & she's stuck money away to buy it at the end as she likes it so much. It was that or continue tondrive the 12 year old purple Corsa she learnt to drive in!

Then there's zero % finance, again normally manufacturer backed. I seriously considered a new Civic Type-R which had 4k off so £15800 OTR with 30% deposit & rest over 3 years, again even if u can buy out right you never remove money from savings when it will earn in there while you get interest free.

TBH I'm still a sucker for 2nd hand bargains as buying new in general is a mugs game.

 

[J333EVO]

I should have added it's that sort of aggressive sales tactics that gets the big sales numbers in.

For example there are roughly 2300 500 Abarths on the road 190 500C, 350 GPA & 130ish APE. Total since relaunch sold 2970ish over 3years.

Now compare this to 6000 Clio 182's alone which were only sold over 2 years.

Or the 17,000 Civic Type-R EP3's sold.

& even though I drive both I rarely cross many others, It's a real event in the Clio to see just another 182, never mind one of the other 450ish left Trophy's, but then it stands to reason as there are 32million cars in the UK.

& these are small numbers compared to some older hot hatches like the MK2 XR2 which sold 100,000 of them, in fact 1 in 5 Fiestas sold was an XR2.

There was even 50,000 205GTi's sold in the UK.

One you make the product good, you do the marketing backed up by favourable mag reports, set the figures right make the cars attractive to buy & you can't go wrong.

 

[306maxi]

The real beauty of the PCP deals is you pay a set figure get a minimum trade in value or final payment fee to pay at the end. Easy bit is car manufacturers can then manipulate future values by fixing the trade in value high as that also means high 2nd hand values as no cheap cars to sell on.

Most folk stay with the brand & trade up using that set minimum trade in value often higher than you could achieve in a private sale & with salary generally increasing think it's fine to go a little higher on monthly payment next time round, making dealer v happy. It's a cycle favoured by the manufacturers who will supplement the cost to the dealer, thats why they can be very cost effective like the Renault deal @ 1.9% interest. If you say had the full amount available you should still take up the deal as you should be able to invest the rest of the money at a higher interest rate & actualy make something from it.

Fiat have only recently twigged to this but the deals they offered and the ridiculous low mileages on the deal rule out pretty much any normal driver, though the mileage fee wasn't too high iirc

It also allows folk to say use the £1-3k they have saved up to buy a new car rather than an old one. A girl I work with bought a Mazda 2 on a PCP deal & it includes all servicing & road tax so she pays for nothing but consumables for I think £138 a month with a very small initial deposit & she's stuck money away to buy it at the end as she likes it so much. It was that or continue tondrive the 12 year old purple Corsa she learnt to drive in!

Then there's zero % finance, again normally manufacturer backed. I seriously considered a new Civic Type-R which had 4k off so £15800 OTR with 30% deposit & rest over 3 years, again even if u can buy out right you never remove money from savings when it will earn in there while you get interest free.

TBH I'm still a sucker for 2nd hand bargains as buying new in general is a mugs game.

The thing for me is this, I like the 500 and in 13 months time we'll own it outright. At that point we can put the £225 or something pounds a month towards something else we need/want. I like the idea of a Giulietta for instance, when that's paid off we can put the money towards a bigger house or a classic car or we can just put it in the bank.

I think I'm not the typical 500 buyer I suspect though, we've bought the car with a view to keeping it till it pops its clogs. As we got scrappage and we plan to keep the car for a long long time I think it makes a lot of sense to buy new as you know just how it's been driven and maintained which makes it a better long term proposition. But to buy new and then get rid of it 3-5 years later just seems completely crazy to me. I suspect that over the next 5 years I'll have to replace most if not all of the suspension which will cost a grand or so, but other than that I really don't see the 500 costing much to keep on the road other than fuel, oil, tyres, timing belts and so on, definitely not as much as buying another car on pcp!

But I guess PCP is what keeps the supply of cheap 2nd hand cars flowing and keeps all those dealerships in business. Just seems a bit of a stupid concept to get rid of a car because the plate is too old or because you're bored with it (buy a car you like properly in the first place!!!!!)

Given a choice between owning 3 or 4 cars on pcp over 10-15 years or owning an Integrale EVO I think you know what my choice would be

Your point regarding 205 GTi's is well made. Make a car which is fantastic to drive and people will buy it and in the future people will still be buying them. Heck there's a company whose name I forget who will basically restore a 205 GTi for you to more or less a factory standard. I suspect in 20 years time there simply won't be the demand for such a service with the 500 Abarth.

 

[jimbro1000]

The CVH engine got a lot of stick in its day from tuners who hated it to begin with but after the best part of a decade start coming out with some properly good tuned engines once they got to understand it better. Sadly just in time for the engine to be replaced but the knowledge gained from the CVH era was thankfully applicable to many later engines and not just from Ford.

A big part of the problem was that on older designs it was very much just a case of bigger is better so any fool with a grinding stone could improve on the design but the CVH starts to mark the beginning of proper design optimisation - simply carving out chunks of metal does not just make it better so perhaps we should thank Ford for actually making the engine tuners do some proper thinking!

I was trying to keep the turbo discussion simple but I can see the more technical of us want the gory details but I suggest we save that for another thread, this is starting to wander so far off thread it just needs some celeb gossip to finish it off...

now to catch up with the latest meandering...

PCP is just a flexible option that helps the manufacturers get cars out of the doors, if it encourages buyers to take away a new car because it makes it more affordable (in the short term) then that is great - it means more second hand cars on the market too. Its more than a double win too - they make more money of the finance as well so not only do they get to sell the car twice (in some cases - not all) but they get paid extra for doing it! Why would they want to sell any car the old fashioned way?

Personally I would rather own a car outright but I was honestly sick and tired of waiting for the A500 to arrive and while I couldn't afford the asking price up front I was happy to pay the deposit and maintain the payments. I certainly don't regret it, especially since my finances changed radically for the worse not long after I bought it and I've still managed to hold on to it!

I get the best of both worlds too - it isn't my only car and I've little intention of giving them up either (even if two are sorn'd at the moment - still got 3 tax'd and mot'd)

 

[grimwau]

I was trying to keep the turbo discussion simple but I can see the more technical of us want the gory details but I suggest we save that for another thread, this is starting to wander so far off thread it just needs some celeb gossip to finish it off...

Actually, turbo talk is probably more relevant to the topic than the PCP discussions but unless anyone would like a new thread I am perfectly happy to let this one ride with the current format.

To be perfectly frank it is just nice to see more people posting in what is a "niche" forum and therefore the normal rules, necessary to maintain relevance in the much larger forums won't be applied so rigidly here.

Don't forget, that with the demise of the social clubs Ben has given us an "Off Topic" prefix that allows us to discuss anything at all, so keep posting away.

 

[loveshandbags]

Actually, turbo talk is probably more relevant to the topic...

I had an XR3i with the CVH engine and I didn't like it. After 4000rpm the engine was so harsh it was a good way of keeping your speed down on a Motorway. Turbo charging the engine made it into a 'different' engine.
What I like about the 1368cc engine in the standard 1.4 is that it's a great little engine on its own. I like the fact that it can run some crazy figures which is a testimond as to how good the engine actually is. The problem I see with boosting the engine is that it involves a beefier gearbox which means losing the slick 6 speed in the standard 500 although the 5 speed in the A500 is fine. Haven't used the 6 speed in the APE but I hear it may not suit the A500.
Having a high-end NA engine like the one in the Type R that gives the 'yield' higher up the RPM cripples normal driveability but are kinder on the gearbox (this was the Achilles heal of the Turbo CVH engines).
So now with small Turbo charged engines we are going to end up with 'harder to use' gearboxs or possibly a expensive to repair DSG type gearbox (if anything went wrong) if and when it appears (unsure if it's out on the Guiletta).

 

[jimbro1000]

I tend to disagree on the Type-R engines. Driveability on my DC2 was pretty good at all engine speeds but you really had to rev it to get the headline performance out of it. I considered a VTEC remap but decided in the end that I just liked it the way it was if only because of the fuel economy when being gentle.

My Seicento really suffers - it is only an 8v head so peak air flow is at relatively low revs but it is tuned for power fairly high up the rev range. The result is very poor driveability at low revs followed by lunatic acceleration that then tails off. It will happily keep up with our TVR upto 80ish mph but then starts to fade as I run out of revs and gears. There is no fancy variable cam timing there and the engine can get very harsh if pushed too hard up the revs but you really don't need to - mind that is more than 4000rpm, more like 8000rpm.

All of the CVH gearboxes were suspect, not just the turbo boxes - certainly no secrets there. The older ford gearboxes were stronger and the big inline RWD type-5 (a borg warner design iirc) borders on bulletproof. That said the auto in my Explorer struggles and tends to stretch the belts occasionally and that is "supposed" to be rugged.

 

[loveshandbags]

On driveability on the VTEC engines on the Honda this was based on the following:
A mate had a company allowance and a wanted a 318is (this is the early 90s !) but the 'allowance' would only cover a VTi 123bhp model. We test drove the VTEC 160bhp which was faster but the lower powered model had the better spread of power and was more supposedly more economical (he had to pay for personal mileage).
If you look at the Honda S2000 it too suffers from relatively poor low end power. I was off the impression in a NA you cann't really have both - it's always a compromise. Although with technological advances this may have changed and I would happily stand corrected.
Since manufacturers are downsizing the engines for emissions - the turbo is allowing them to keep the power. I felt the gearbox was a casualty in all of this.

 

[Kernow]

I watched that episode with interest, A) because I've just bought a DS3 Racing and B) because we're thinking of chopping the 500 in for an Abarth later this year.

A bit disappointed to see it wasn't a full on test, but entertaining none the less.

The main reason why the DS3R has such a bad press is due to the press moaning about the price, but what they fail to mention is that if you spec up a Clio 200 to the same equipment level it comes to £22k, and then it's almost twice as much a year to tax, does between 15 and 20 MPG less than the DS3R. Even a MINI JCW at the same spec level as the DS3R is over £25k so it's actually not that expensive.

As for performance, I can't fault it, I've driven all 3 models in the TG show and in my mind the DS3R is the best, closely followed by the fun factor of the Abarth (in SS form). The Clio for me is bland inside and out and a bit too, well, clinical.

And why is it that none of the press every get the figures straight!?

The UK DS3R has 207HP and covers 0-62 in 6.5 seconds. The Evo video test with Chris Brown had all the figures wrong for most of the models.

The Clio is a good car, we owned a 182 before we bought the Fiat 500, but for me that was the last of the great Renault Sport Clio's.

Quite looking forward to trading the 500 Lounge for a 500 Abarth at the end of the year if we decide to go ahead, it'll be great to have two of the best hot hatches on the driveway!!

Anyway, here's a sneaky pic or 3 of my DS3R....................................

Stef

 

[306maxi]

I watched that episode with interest, A) because I've just bought a DS3 Racing and B) because we're thinking of chopping the 500 in for an Abarth later this year.

A bit disappointed to see it wasn't a full on test, but entertaining none the less.

The main reason why the DS3R has such a bad press is due to the press moaning about the price, but what they fail to mention is that if you spec up a Clio 200 to the same equipment level it comes to £22k, and then it's almost twice as much a year to tax, does between 15 and 20 MPG less than the DS3R. Even a MINI JCW at the same spec level as the DS3R is over £25k so it's actually not that expensive.

As for performance, I can't fault it, I've driven all 3 models in the TG show and in my mind the DS3R is the best, closely followed by the fun factor of the Abarth (in SS form). The Clio for me is bland inside and out and a bit too, well, clinical.

And why is it that none of the press every get the figures straight!?

The UK DS3R has 207HP and covers 0-62 in 6.5 seconds. The Evo video test with Chris Brown had all the figures wrong for most of the models.

The Clio is a good car, we owned a 182 before we bought the Fiat 500, but for me that was the last of the great Renault Sport Clio's.

Quite looking forward to trading the 500 Lounge for a 500 Abarth at the end of the year if we decide to go ahead, it'll be great to have two of the best hot hatches on the driveway!!

Anyway, here's a sneaky pic or 3 of my DS3R....................................

Stef

Have to say I'm not a fan of the DS3 purely because of the gawdy graphics. If it didn't have them I'd quite like it

bet it'll be a cracking drive though :_)

 

[jimbro1000]

I had a Renault salesman trying to get me into a RS Megane R26 a few years ago when I was only really interested in the Clio.

All the magazines rave about it and on paper it should be a very, very quick car. It looked way over the top in the flesh in that liquid yellow pearl type paint and they were really, really keen for to try it so I thought why not.

3 test miles later I had decided that it should never be driven on back roads as the torque steer over unpredictable tarmac bordered on lethal coupled with brakes that faded inside those 3 miles (ironically my first question to the dealer was "have they sorted the brakes?"). They refused to let me out in the Clio on the same day and insisted I come back in a couple of days instead. When I did get to try the Clio it was much more composed and in the real world quicker (and safer) over the same terrain. Unfortunately I was limited to a single mile of test drive and now have the ignominity of being unofficially banned from testing any car at a Renault dealer in the UK or hiring any car from them. All because I was right about the brakes....

I expect the DS3 to be in the same bracket but without quite the same power as the Megane so now I know we have someone on here with real world experience what is the verdict?

 

[306maxi]

3 test miles later I had decided that it should never be driven on back roads as the torque steer over unpredictable tarmac bordered on lethal coupled with brakes that faded inside those 3 miles (ironically my first question to the dealer was "have they sorted the brakes?"). They refused to let me out in the Clio on the same day and insisted I come back in a couple of days instead. When I did get to try the Clio it was much more composed and in the real world quicker (and safer) over the same terrain. Unfortunately I was limited to a single mile of test drive and now have the ignominity of being unofficially banned from testing any car at a Renault dealer in the UK or hiring any car from them. All because I was right about the brakes....

Weird!

 

[J333EVO]

I also have to disagree on the VTEC engines. People get caught up with torque figures when they forget the most important factor, the torque multiplier otherwise known as the gearbox.

Our Type-R happily drives along in 6th gear at 30mph & although it's not quick it accelerates & has no issues with inclines. Yet 4th gear pulled pretty well from 40-120mph thats true flexibility.

Yes to make fast progress you need to work it but when you have one of the truely great gearboxs in terms of ratios & slickness of change that's what makes it very exciting. The 500 engine is a little cracker but is very asthmatic at higher revs & struggles above 100mph as I found round Rockingham. The gearchange on the 1.4 16V is sweeter as the Abarth has a long imprecise throw with the articulation angle slighty out, and the Noddy toy size gearknob removes feel as well. You only have to jump from the Civic to the 500 with similar gearstick positions to highlight this. It feels like going from a scalpel to a butter knife.

Having been sat behind a Clio 200 last week it's just incredible how different it is compared to a normal Clio, so wide & purposeful, as nearly everybody panel is different. From the back the Abarth has nothing different apart from the bumper, & this is it's achillies heal. They have given it mire power, yet it runs same suspension components as a regular 500. The track width has really been adjusted apart from wider wheel with different offset, or geometry positions, it is just a 500 made quicker & although done very well just not quiet the finished article.

The steering is devoid of feel or feedback by it's poor EPS system that try's to assist & resist as the same time to artificially inject weight & is they further numbed by having a silly thick steering wheel. There's a reason the wheels on M sport cars are thinner than regular BMW's & that's to increase feel.

I believe is someone got the wheel retrimmed thinner & without silly big lumps in it the driving experience would improve. Get a shorter shift action & we're almost there. Set the accelerator pedal lower than the brake pedal & the ergonomics are coming to us, seat lower, clearer instruments as when going quick they are awful hence why the Trofeo cars were offers with clear digital displays as drivers complained of the unreadable display & you just about got your driver focused car.

To much over design for design sake, not enough thought put in by engineers.

 

[dave]

Stef

why does it say £50 on the roof

 

[Kernow]

I had a Renault salesman trying to get me into a RS Megane R26 a few years ago when I was only really interested in the Clio.

All the magazines rave about it and on paper it should be a very, very quick car. It looked way over the top in the flesh in that liquid yellow pearl type paint and they were really, really keen for to try it so I thought why not.

3 test miles later I had decided that it should never be driven on back roads as the torque steer over unpredictable tarmac bordered on lethal coupled with brakes that faded inside those 3 miles (ironically my first question to the dealer was "have they sorted the brakes?"). They refused to let me out in the Clio on the same day and insisted I come back in a couple of days instead. When I did get to try the Clio it was much more composed and in the real world quicker (and safer) over the same terrain. Unfortunately I was limited to a single mile of test drive and now have the ignominity of being unofficially banned from testing any car at a Renault dealer in the UK or hiring any car from them. All because I was right about the brakes....

I expect the DS3 to be in the same bracket but without quite the same power as the Megane so now I know we have someone on here with real world experience what is the verdict?

It's really very good, there is plenty of torque steer, but it's not that bad and actually can be fun, it keeps you on your toes that's for sure!

Cornering I have to say is absolutely awesome, I can power this thing in to bends and on to sweeping slip roads that join motorways and I can get the ESP light to flash continuously but it always goes exactly where I want it to.

The ride is firm, not quite as hard as the Abarth or Clio but just about right.

I find the engine has plenty of power right the way through with minimal turbo lag.

General fit and finish is very good, the standard equipment level is very high, the only options being the graphics pack and sat nav (and pretty good it is too, you can add the speed camera database to it).

It's pretty quiet inside and I think this is where some of the magazine reports show through where they say it doesn't feel like a hot hatch, it has bloody good insulation, but I can assure you on the outside it makes all the right noises!!

A guy I know was looking at the DS3R and I took him out for a spin in mine, the following day he took the Megane Cup out for a test drive and didn't like it at all, he said the DS3R was far superior in every way (he has a Porsche 911 as one of his other daily runabouts).

Despite what a lot of people think, the DS3R is very well put together, it was designed by the Citroen Racing Team and indeed they actually finish the car by hand.

You can get it without the graphics pack and of course it comes in the white and grey, like this...................

.......................and without the graphics in black/orange

I wanted something that was fun to drive and fun to look at, for me it was only ever going to be the Black with Sport Orange and decal pack, the same as our next 500 will probably be in Campovolo Grey with all the side and roof decals, these type of cars just look plain without them.

As for the £50 on the roof, I'd never noticed that before! LOL.

Stef

 

[Kernow]

I forgot to add, the DS3R has Brembo front brakes and they are bloody terrific!

Stef

 

[Vance]

I prefer the white one

Looks like a nice piece of kit though.

 

[jimbro1000]

Weird!

Lets just say the salesman needed some clean underwear - ploughing into a tight, blind 90degree corner without any brakes was a bit hair raising but I wasn't pushing it *that* hard at the time and the cornering of the car (when it isn't lunging over bumps) was just sublime.

I was expecting the brakes to fail so it didn't come as a surprise when it happened. Just remember this was a brand new car with just a couple hundred miles on the clock. I've seen so many cup and trophy clios in the paddock with the brakes either seized or literally on fire that I knew what to expect even from something that new. It recovered quickly and it was only that one moment without brakes but it was enough to prove that driving one on the road was potentially lethal, the thoughts of driving one on track wasn't too appealing either!

Definitely like the DS3 better in white and grey. I think it is just the lurid wheels that upsets the black and orange version rather than the gaudy colour combination.

 

[J333EVO]

I find the comments on the RS brakes odd. In Jamie86's Clio 172 we've done hundreds of laps of Castle Combe & Cadwell & never even had brake fade on nothing more than £40 Brembo OEM discs & Ferrodo pads, just relentless confidence inspiring braking power.

The Megane also runs 4pot Brembo's on a car which in R26R guise was fastest FWD production car for over 2 years at the Nurburgring until beaten two weeks ago by the Megane RS265 Trophy which laps quicker than a current M5 8m07secs iirc the Punto SS was timed over 9 mins.

The same calipers are used off the shelf on the Clio 197/200 & the Cup cars and are same as used on the 500 Trofeo & Punto though the upgraded SS pads on the Punto are Clio oem spec Btembo pads.

There are a huge number of Clio track day cars in the UK & apart from good pad compounds no one changes anything on them. ClioSport of one of the biggest dedicated to one car forum on the net & of the thousands of threads posted on trackdays never once have I read of seized or brakes on fire. Renaultsport UK also do 6 track days a year including Spa open to RS owners subsidised by Renault who allow you to drive their cars as well as yours & again never seen anything on the RS forum.

Whereas at Rockingham on the Abarth trackday someone managed to get fade on the sighting laps in a 500. He has now fitted 6pot Tarox in an effort to slow it down as I believe it was even worse at Cadwell at stopping.

We got the brakes to lastly doing no more than 3 flying laps to preserve them, but they were not confidence inspiring.

Cars today are so well made compared to some in the past. There used to be lots of rubbish about so the good cars stood out like beacons in the night, you're 205GTi's MK2 Golfs, Clio Williams etc but now to stand out you need to be exceptional as the competition is so dam good.

I honestly believe that no matter what folk choose now they are getting a good car & some different aspects appeal to people in different ways otherwise we would all be in the same car.

But for ANY car manufacturer to survive in this cut throat times, they need to sell in big numbers & to do that you need a sprinkle of greatness (or ubber slick German advertising)