Technical The one and only Dualogic failure thread

[44sunsets]

Despite it being 9 years old, it’s got very low kilometres on the car and even lower on the new gearbox, so the fact that it’s being so stubborn is absolutely devastating me, as I really can’t afford to junk the car.

Sorry to hear about your Dualogic failure, I've been lucky enough not to be hit by it yet -- I think my car is virtually the same as your model, 9 year old FIAT 500C Lounge TwinAir 0.9L (I bought mine new in 2013, but it was manufactured back in 2012). Mine is very low km as well, less than 14,000 km at this point -- what's the odometer reading on your car, if you don't mind me asking? It certainly does seem like the troubles start once it hits a certain mileage

 

[tristtan]

Hello guys, im about to get a 2015 fiat 500 sport with 47.000 kms and a dualogic transmission. It belongs to my cousin and it hasnt had any issues with the gearbox so far but reading this thread im completly terrified.

Am i crazy for wanting a second hand dualogic fiat 500??

 

[jaahn]

Hi I have a 2013 1.2L 5 speed dualogic. I have just replaced the gearbox input shaft bearing and seal which had failed, and fitted a new clutch kit. The job was tackled using good information from the forum here.
However the clutch takeup now is very fierce and jerky. even using very light throttle. After starting off it is OK but just a bit harsh changing gear. The clutch before changing was jerky and slipping due to the oil on it but was also worn down to near the minimum.
My question is will the dualogic relearn the new clutch takeup position and a smooth procedure OR do I need to teach it in some manner OR is there a procedure using a scanner needed (which I do not have).
Thanks in advance for any answers.
Jaahn

 

[A3jeroen]

MES (Multi Ecu Scan) has a recalibration program. Examiner (at the Fiat dealer) has it too. Without recalibrating, the clutch might misbehave/wear quickly.

gr J

 

[jaahn]

MES (Multi Ecu Scan) has a recalibration program. Examiner (at the Fiat dealer) has it too. Without recalibrating, the clutch might misbehave/wear quickly.

gr J

Thanks for that information. Can anyone give me some ideas about what the recalibration procedure does please.
I do not have easy access to a dealer, here in Australia Fiats are not common outside the main cities, and I have not found any mechanic in my area who will work on these Fiats.
So I guess I will consider getting the MES software. Will the free version do the recalibration or do I need the paid version.
Any suggestion about an interface to get that works well. I need to get one fast not wait forever from China.
Jaahn

 

[jaahn]

Hi
Well I did get the MES software and an ELM interface and three conversion cables. Wait, wait, wait ! But finally it did take me half a day to get the software to work and then try to get to the gearbox controller and find the correct adaptor cable. Am I just stupid or is most of this car software crap(all brands) ! Then it said i needed the registered(paid for) version to do the gearbox. Only the pretend SIMULATE is available for free. But you do get some idea what you might be able to do. So I forked out 50euro and got the key and the new latest software version to down load. Hmmm the costs just add up !

To state clearly the car after fitting the new clutch was 'bunny hopping' to start no matter how gently you tried and the gear changes were fierce. I did not drive it far like that because i thought the engine mounts might fail. So my hopes of a software fix were not high. BUT I WAS WRONG. After playing with the software and deleating the previous settings in most boxes and asking for it to do all the adjustments it would carry out we tried to drive it. Success it seemed as it drove smoothly out the drive better than it ever did but it refused to change out of first, hmm(or worse ?)

So back to the computer to try everything again. Gees it would be good to really know what you were doing and to understand the command descriptions ??? However after repeating the procedure with no apparent differences, the same three last commands failed to act again, we set out again. THIS TIME REAL SUCCESS. Clutch smooth as silk, gears change as expected, changes smooth. WOW Never been this good before !

Who would have thought it could be done only with a computer and not any mechanical parts to adjust nor any self learning procedure. I thought there was a clutch rod to adjust but no mention. Happy ! I might tackle the flashing mileage readout next and see if I can annoy myself a bit more on the computer doing a POXY alignment.
Cheers Jaahn

 

[Pete500fiat]

We have a 500, 2008 with dual logic box etc and intermittently it will not change up through the gears, it will work for a while absolutely fine then all of a sudden will not change up, only way to change is by using the shifter which works fine. We also get the transmission warning come on intermittently. There's no particularly time frame that it doesn't change but it can just start working again and changes gears fine. It doesn't ever seem to have a problem when changing down through the gears. Could it be a faulty sensor? any help would be appreciated

 

[varesecrazy]

Maybe...

What error is stored when you get the Message??

When was the Gearchange system last Serviced..or worked on..??

Its a complex system.. uses a ROBOT.. to change gear and work the clutch

The Fluid for the Robot needs to be Clean, of the correct grade and at the correct level


That is probably the cheapest starting point

 

[jrkitching]

Hello and welcome to the forum.

Sorry to hear about your problem.

This is the best place to discuss your issue, so I've copied what's been posted here and closed the original thread.

Once you start reading through this thread, you'll realise that problems with this transmission are not unusual. Sometimes they can be resolved by topping up and/or changing the selespeed fluid, but quite frequently they can be difficult to diagnose and costly (as in significantly more than the value of a 2008 500) to repair.

Intermittent faults can sometimes be cleared - for a while - but unless the underlying cause is found and fixed properly, will sooner or later turn into a catastrophic failure. If you can't get this fixed simply and cheaply, it may be time to consider cutting your losses and getting another car. I'm sorry if this comes across as unduly pessimistic, but I wouldn't like to see you putting significant cash into a car which may be about to turn into a moneypit.

 

[puntodeltathema]

Just to counter the doom....worst case is probably that the actuator needs refurbishment (not unreasonable on a 14 year old car), which is about GBP 750 all in if the right people are used. If it's high mileage it might also need a clutch - but then so would a manual car. But then it could be a much cheaper sensor issue. First step is getting someone with Multiecuscan or other Fiat diagnostic software to read the error code(s). Not sure where in Sussex you are but I am in Tonbridge in Kent - happy to help if practical (if so, feel free to drop me a personal message).

The real problem with these gearboxes is that the people one would naturally turn to to help (the terrible Fiat main dealer network) can't be bothered to apply themselves or invest in the knowhow for repair. Neither are all independents prepared to get involved. But there are people out there. Honourable mention to Carl Douthwaite (CD Motors) in Stoke whom I've used a few times now on behalf of customers. Only thing is he's busy, so an actuator refurb can take a fortnight by return mail.

Nick

 

[jrkitching]

But there are people out there.

If you're in the middle part of the south coast, try small car services near Southampton.

 

[davy wavy]

dont you hate it when your first post is a whinge?
backstory: 2013 Fiat 500 Twinair purchased new in 2017 (was a demo with 83km on the dial). so yeah, its a 5 year old car. I have done 67,000km. has never skipped a beat.

flash fwd, out of the blue at about 66,500 km the engine suddenly starts idling rough, a week or so late i get my first "check tranny" light and it shifts into neutral. I pull over and restart and everything is ok, I book it in to ultratune the next day but they cant figure it out, so i take it to my local Fiat dealership (where I purchased it)... they kept it for 3.5 months and finally handed it back fixed 4 days ago.
I drive to work today and 3 times (once in a bust intersection) the light tranny light comes on and drop to neutral. lucky all 3 times I had enough momentum to roll out of the traffic for a restart. I have called NRMA and had the F.... the car towed back to the dealership (at my cost)... I am guessing that it will cost half the cars value to get it back on the road from what I am reading here... here's hoping that it doesnt. I gave them a good blasting over the phone for handing me a dangerous car...
I love this car dearly, its been so good up till now.

I'm in sydney, australia for the record.

 

[jaahn]

dont you hate it when your first post is a whinge?
backstory: 2013 Fiat 500 Twinair purchased new in 2017 (was a demo with 83km on the dial). so yeah, its a 5 year old car. I have done 67,000km. has never skipped a beat.

flash fwd, out of the blue at about 66,500 km the engine suddenly starts idling rough, a week or so late i get my first "check tranny" light and it shifts into neutral. I pull over and restart and everything is ok, I book it in to ultratune the next day but they cant figure it out, so i take it to my local Fiat dealership (where I purchased it)... they kept it for 3.5 months and finally handed it back fixed 4 days ago.
I drive to work today and 3 times (once in a bust intersection) the light tranny light comes on and drop to neutral. lucky all 3 times I had enough momentum to roll out of the traffic for a restart. I have called NRMA and had the F.... the car towed back to the dealership (at my cost)... I am guessing that it will cost half the cars value to get it back on the road from what I am reading here... here's hoping that it doesnt. I gave them a good blasting over the phone for handing me a dangerous car...
I love this car dearly, its been so good up till now.

I'm in sydney, australia for the record.

Hi Davy Wavy sorry to meet you on here in these circumstances. Hmm a lack of knowledge about these little cars in Aus and a don't care attitude from all dealers. 3.5 mths for a sh*t fix ??? Go to consumer affairs and the NRMA legal dept to kick off.
My suggestion is that you or a good mechanic check the basics. The dualogic oil as it will not change if there is no hydraulic fluid for pressure to operate itself. IMHO when there is a computer port to plug into they forget the basics. But a scan should tell a competent mechanic that anyway. But what dealer has one of those ??
I have the MES software and could maybee help there but am quite a way from Sydney. Depends what suburb you are in too.
Send me a private message if you want to contact me. You could search above for my name to read my couple of posts on our Fiat 500 repairs.
Jaahn

 

[davy wavy]

Hi Davy Wavy sorry to meet you on here in these circumstances. Hmm a lack of knowledge about these little cars in Aus and a don't care attitude from all dealers. 3.5 mths for a sh*t fix ??? Go to consumer affairs and the NRMA legal dept to kick off.
My suggestion is that you or a good mechanic check the basics. The dualogic oil as it will not change if there is no hydraulic fluid for pressure to operate itself. IMHO when there is a computer port to plug into they forget the basics. But a scan should tell a competent mechanic that anyway. But what dealer has one of those ??
I have the MES software and could maybee help there but am quite a way from Sydney. Depends what suburb you are in too.
Send me a private message if you want to contact me. You could search above for my name to read my couple of posts on our Fiat 500 repairs.
Jaahn

they did the oil, it was a little low, and an ecu upgrade.
they did fix the rough idle which is great... engine and tranny mounts had to be replaced.

the 3.5 mths goes like this.

• I dropped the car off
• 2 days later they tell me the mounts need replacing and have to get them from italy (6-8 weeks), I say ok.
• 10 weeks and nothing so i call. they need to run diagnostics and will get back to me.
• couple of days later i get the call. they found nothing much, but say they need to order engine mounts because mine are collapsed... nope, they hadnt ordered them
• did ecu update and oil.
• last saturday I picked my car up... $2600 later

they have my car now and will check it tomorrow... see what happens.

 

[jaahn]

hmm my suggestion is to get a written quote from them detailing the faults they find and recommended work required. Do not get them to do any more actual work on it as they are incompetent IMHO.
Then get your invoice for the previous work and the new quote and go to the NRMA legal dept for advice and to Consumer Affairs for advice about your rights. They have taken your money previously and all repairs by a dealer should be guaranteed by law. The NRMA will do a technical inspection and report for you on it if you request it and pay. Good value for a negotiation start position.
Jaahn

 

[davy wavy]

hmm my suggestion is to get a written quote from them detailing the faults they find and recommended work required. Do not get them to do any more actual work on it as they are incompetent IMHO.
Then get your invoice for the previous work and the new quote and go to the NRMA legal dept for advice and to Consumer Affairs for advice about your rights. They have taken your money previously and all repairs by a dealer should be guaranteed by law. The NRMA will do a technical inspection and report for you on it if you request it and pay. Good value for a negotiation start position.
Jaahn

The money I paid was for the engine blocks to be replaced and some other engine stuff. They didn't charge for ECU update and oil... Ie the work they did on the tranny.

 

[Duke Thrust]

Hi all,

Would love to get the benefit of your advice on my Abarth 500c (2009)

It's always been that when you switch the car on, you turn the ignition on and leave it 2 seconds before turning the engine on - if you didn't then it wouldn't engage reverse. Aside from that, the gearbox has always behaved itself well.

About 3 weeks ago it randomly selected neutral, but it was a one off and to be honest it was stone cold so I put it down to just being Italian.

On Sunday it took several presses of the button before it'd engage reverse, but otherwise drove and changed gears absolutely fine. On Monday it would only select 1-N-R perhaps 3 times out of 5.

I've looked at the fluid and the level was fine and I can't see any leaks. The Multiscan ECU software shows the hydraulic pressure ranging between 42 and 50 bar. It also show the gear requested as fine (so I know the buttons are okay).

The only fault code is: P2917-71 "Change in selected posit. shift not carried out"

Chatting to a very helpful Dualogic re-build guy via ebay, he thinks it's more likely to be the concentric slave.

What is the collective wisdom?

Thanks!

 

[Jus71n]

Hi all,

Having some gearbox issues on my daughters Fiat 500, not changing properly, neutrals all the time, took to a local garage who read codes as

P291572 = Fault on gearbox engage failed actuator stuck open
P17411C = Gear position sensor - voltage out of range

Quoted £2500 for new gearbox, but from doing some reading I'm more inclined to think it might be the selespeed at fault?

Found a place that can overhaul it for £475, easy to remove/refit?

Thanks

 

[jaahn]

Hi all,

Having some gearbox issues on my daughters Fiat 500, not changing properly, neutrals all the time, took to a local garage who read codes as

P291572 = Fault on gearbox engage failed actuator stuck open
P17411C = Gear position sensor - voltage out of range

Quoted £2500 for new gearbox, but from doing some reading I'm more inclined to think it might be the selespeed at fault?

Found a place that can overhaul it for £475, easy to remove/refit?

Thanks

Hi Jus71n,
If it was mine I would find a mechanic that has the correct software and knowledge of how to use it. The car has a couple of fault codes that will cause serious faults. What more do you need to know. The correct software will tell what they mean and then operate the gear change mechanism to show what is faulty and give real time information on the faulty area.
The most likely fix will be to change the faulty sensor and recalibrate the new part. Possibly able to be done with the gearbox in the car. My suggestion is that pulling the box out will prevent you being able to test it properly. Hmm.
Jaahn

 

[Troubles with 500c]

Unless you know they were using Fiat specific software I’d be reluctant to pull out the gearbox.

Find a Dualogic specialist near to you.