Technical Starting issue

[AnthonyH]

Not long ago I drove past a fiat "professional" repair garage. They only repair ducatos etc. and I can imagine they make a fortune.

I think a dualogic repair garage would be equally lucrative.

 

[Ferniferous]

Impossible to give a definitive answer without the car.
If I knew of a reliable Dualogic expert I would recommend visiting them. Unfortunately the only one I had any personal experience of has passed away.
A Forum member with MultiECUScan would be able to get some useful figures from the gearbox ECU, which could give an indication of clutch wear - a well worn clutch could cause this problem, as could low pump pressure and a few other things that can be read from the ECU.
As far as the gearbox itself goes, not much can be checked without removing it, but you could check the GEARBOX oil level, and look for any signs of leakage and report back.
My very strong suggestion is not to mess with the actuator, and don't take advice from anyone who isn't prepared to back it up with a meaningful warranty. There are far too many "experts" out there who should never be allowed to touch these, which maybe explains their bad reputation on here.

Sorry to hear about your friend passing away.

So, when i took the car to the first mechanic, he did say that it came up with an error to do with the oil level sensor, or something like that. He reset it and said see if that helps, but it made no difference.

Someone else mentioned that i should check the gearbox oil...I'll look into doing that tomorrow.

I won't mess with anything else.

 

[irc]

Just to be sure, don't do anything with the plastic reservoir (which contains hydraulic fluid for the actuator). It won't look full, but don't be tempted to "top it up". If it's leaking fluid then that's a different problem, report back giving details (and pictures if possible).

The gearbox level and drain plugs are exactly the same as for the manual gearbox.

You're looking for possible leaks at the driveshaft seals, and/or the bellhousing.

 

[Ferniferous]

Just to be sure, don't do anything with the plastic reservoir (which contains hydraulic fluid for the actuator). It won't look full, but don't be tempted to "top it up". If it's leaking fluid then that's a different problem, report back giving details (and pictures if possible).

The gearbox level and drain plugs are exactly the same as for the manual gearbox.

You're looking for possible leaks at the driveshaft seals, and/or the bellhousing.

I'll have to YouTube all this, haven't got a clue!

 

[koalar]

Need to work out what to do next without any diagnostic software

Sound like the actuators, here's a 500 going through a recalibration

Visual inspection for leaks and check the hydraulic level is a good first move

Now the bad news, unless someone has previously left the cover off, it's not straightforward to check

It should be under this cover

Which on the the 500 will need the engine undertray removing

 

[Ferniferous]

Need to work out what to do next without any diagnostic software

Sound like the actuators, here's a 500 going through a recalibration

View attachment 457178


Visual inspection for leaks and check the hydraulic level is a good first move

Now the bad news, unless someone has previously left the cover off, it's not straightforward to check

It should be under this cover
View attachment 457176View attachment 457177

Which on the the 500 will need the engine undertray removing

Hmmm, it does sound like actuator but it's quicker and doesn't have beeping alongside it. I'm guessing i need a compter to recalibrate the actuator?

Oh, that makes thing more difficult...

 

[koalar]

Hmmm, it does sound like actuator but it's quicker and doesn't have beeping alongside it. I'm guessing i need a compter to recalibrate the actuator?

Oh, that makes thing more difficult...

The video was just to show the noise the actuators are being driven via the diagnostic software


In this case the software is the full version of alfaOBD which runs on an android tablet or android phone with a cheap elm327 Bluetooth dongle

The same thing is possible with MultiECUscan and a windows tablet and the same elm327 dongle

There are other options

Both would also allow the monitoring of the hydraulic pressure which should be around 50 bar (725psi) fluctuate a bit as gears are selected then back to 50 when the motor kicks back in, only drop a few bar when the engine is switched off

 

[irc]

Start with looking for leaks.
Probably more than half of the Dualogic problems I have seen in quite a few years were caused by someone's urge to "do something" rather than "work the problem".
At the moment it works fine if not left in gear, so don't take any risks yet.
As the actuator doesn't give "feel" feedback, it is harder to diagnose a gearbox problem than it is on a Manual car, but they can suffer the exact same problems (stiff gearchange, leaking driveshaft seals etc.).
Yours doesn't do the classic "drop out of gear", or any of the usual other problems, so I think its worth investigating why it works all the time EXCEPT when it is trying to select Neutral at startup.
For example, what changes if:
If you don't touch the gear selector, put foot on brake, and just try to start?
If you turn ignition on, and manually select R?
If you stop it in Neutral, leave overnight, then turn on ignition and select 1, then R, then 1 again without starting engine?
You "rock" the car before starting it?
There are other checks, but these would eliminate low pump pressure, "locked" gearbox, faulty gear selector lever, etc.

 

[Ferniferous]

I've been thinking this morning....I've never had any signs

Start with looking for leaks.
Probably more than half of the Dualogic problems I have seen in quite a few years were caused by someone's urge to "do something" rather than "work the problem".
At the moment it works fine if not left in gear, so don't take any risks yet.
As the actuator doesn't give "feel" feedback, it is harder to diagnose a gearbox problem than it is on a Manual car, but they can suffer the exact same problems (stiff gearchange, leaking driveshaft seals etc.).
Yours doesn't do the classic "drop out of gear", or any of the usual other problems, so I think its worth investigating why it works all the time EXCEPT when it is trying to select Neutral at startup.
For example, what changes if:
If you don't touch the gear selector, put foot on brake, and just try to start?
If you turn ignition on, and manually select R?
If you stop it in Neutral, leave overnight, then turn on ignition and select 1, then R, then 1 again without starting engine?
You "rock" the car before starting it?
There are other checks, but these would eliminate low pump pressure, "locked" gearbox, faulty gear selector lever, etc.

I thought it worth mentioning that i drive it in manual almost all the time, becuase i find that even in eco mode, it's not very economical with it's gear changes. But when slowing down, i noticed itbwould still change down gears for me, so i started letting the car do it itself.

i have some questions about what you've asked me to do?

If you don't touch the gear selector, put foot on brake, and just try to start?
- Do i do this having left it in gear or neutral?

If you turn ignition on, and manually select R?
- am i just looking to see if the gear on the dash matches with the gear I'm selecting.

If you stop it in Neutral, leave overnight, then turn on ignition and select 1, then R, then 1 again without starting engine?
- What am i looking for here? I actually did this this morning, and the gears on the dash corresponded with the gears i was selecting.

 

[irc]

I thought it worth mentioning that i drive it in manual almost all the time, becuase i find that even in eco mode, it's not very economical with it's gear changes. But when slowing down, i noticed itbwould still change down gears for me, so i started letting the car do it itself.

That's normal. It's programming won't let you stall it or select a completely wrong gear.


If you don't touch the gear selector, put foot on brake, and just try to start?
- Do i do this having left it in gear or neutral?

In gear.

If you turn ignition on, and manually select R?
- am i just looking to see if the gear on the dash matches with the gear I'm selecting.

Yes, but to be certain, release the handbrake and "scoot" the car forward gently to confirm it is actually in gear. You're only needing to move it a few inches, if in gear it will barely move, if the dash is lying it should roll freely.

If you stop it in Neutral, leave overnight, then turn on ignition and select 1, then R, then 1 again without starting engine?
- What am i looking for here? I actually did this this morning, and the gears on the dash corresponded with the gears i was selecting

Thats good, it suggests pump pressure is good enough from a standing start. Confirm it with the leg-out-the-door scoot though.

With all of these, you also need to listen to the gearchanges - it should sound more like a pump-action shotgun than someone shaking a tray of greasy bolts... hard to describe, but only 2 main sounds, not a bunch of repeated clicks (or clunks).

 

[Ferniferous]

I thought it worth mentioning that i drive it in manual almost all the time, becuase i find that even in eco mode, it's not very economical with it's gear changes. But when slowing down, i noticed itbwould still change down gears for me, so i started letting the car do it itself.

That's normal. It's programming won't let you stall it or select a completely wrong gear.


If you don't touch the gear selector, put foot on brake, and just try to start?
- Do i do this having left it in gear or neutral?

In gear.

If you turn ignition on, and manually select R?
- am i just looking to see if the gear on the dash matches with the gear I'm selecting.

Yes, but to be certain, release the handbrake and "scoot" the car forward gently to confirm it is actually in gear. You're only needing to move it a few inches, if in gear it will barely move, if the dash is lying it should roll freely.

If you stop it in Neutral, leave overnight, then turn on ignition and select 1, then R, then 1 again without starting engine?
- What am i looking for here? I actually did this this morning, and the gears on the dash corresponded with the gears i was selecting

Thats good, it suggests pump pressure is good enough from a standing start. Confirm it with the leg-out-the-door scoot though.

With all of these, you also need to listen to the gearchanges - it should sound more like a pump-action shotgun than someone shaking a tray of greasy bolts... hard to describe, but only 2 main sounds, not a bunch of repeated clicks (or clunks).

If you don't touch the gear selector, put foot on brake, and just try to start?
- Do i do this having left it in gear or neutral?
I just tried this, the car was already in reverese, so let if there and started the engine. It started fine but the car hasn't been left standing for 8 hours. But when i switched the engine off, still in reverse, it beeped at me several times and N Flashed on the dash.

Ok, just turned the engine on, put it in reverse, dash said R, released the handbrake and as I'm on a slope the car rolled forward at least 1 to 2 feet.

When changing gears:
N to In Gear - no noise
In Gear to R - shotgun sound
R to N - shotgun sound
R to In Gear - shotgun soun
In Gear to Neutral- no sound
N to R - shotgun sound

Hope I've covered all variations.

 

[Ferniferous]

It also rolls forward when in gear and no handbrake.

 

[koalar]

N to In Gear - no noise

Got to be a clue here

Is this constant

Or just the first test tried, does reverse first then back to N, then N to gear now make a sound

It also rolls forward when in gear and no handbrake

And here a clue, which is strange because if the car is parked in gear it starts and dives fine, the only difference is the engine is running

So, when i took the car to the first mechanic, he did say that it came up with an error to do with the oil level sensor, or something like that. He reset it and said see if that helps, but it made no difference.

And possibly another clue here

Without a way of reading the pressure, I have a feeling the hydraulic level will have to be checked, which unfortunately does mean getting under the car

Maybe @irc can come up with an alternative, if we prime the pump a few times first and conclude it's pressure, we still have to check the level

I don't see another away around

 

[irc]

It also rolls forward when in gear and no handbrake.

With the engine off?
It shouldn't.

However, the slope is where it is normally parked?
Is it your driveway or the side of the road?
If driveway, I have an experiment you can try...
Put a couple of wheel chocks where the front wheels would normally be. Next time you return home, drive up to the chocks, let the car 'lean on them before you put the handbrake on and switch off.
Leave overnight, then try your original normal start-up routine.
Report back.

Not so easy if roadside though.

 

[irc]

Got to be a clue here

Is this constant

Or just the first test tried, does reverse first then back to N, then N to gear now make a sound



And here a clue, which is strange because if the car is parked in gear it starts and dives fine, the only difference is the engine is running



And possibly another clue here

Without a way of reading the pressure, I have a feeling the hydraulic level will have to be checked, which unfortunately does mean getting under the car

Maybe @irc can come up with an alternative, if we prime the pump a few times first and conclude it's pressure, we still have to check the level

I don't see another away around

Without being in front of it, it's difficult, but we can check pressure and accumulator operation by letting it prime, then counting the number of gear operations that can be made before pump runs again, and how many seconds the pump runs to re-pressurise. Crude, but gives a good idea.

The level in the reservoir can vary quite a bit, depending on the state of the accumulator, but unless there are leaks, it's probably fine. It needs to be properly de-pressurised before checking, which does really need diags tools. Adding fluid without depressurising risks splitting the reservoir if it gets a surge from the accumulator.

The sound of the pump motor is also a good indicator, but recording on a phone probably isn't really good enough. You need to be able to tell if it sounds "wheezy" rather than "crisp".

I haven't been running a Dualogic for a couple of years, so I'm a bit hazy on the sounds myself, but let's see how it goes...

 

[koalar]

Without being in front of it, it's difficult, but we can check pressure and accumulator operation by letting it prime, then counting the number of gear operations that can be made before pump runs again, and how many seconds the pump runs to re-pressurise. Crude, but gives a good idea.

a very good idea

The level in the reservoir can vary quite a bit, depending on the state of the accumulator, but unless there are leaks, it's probably fine. It needs to be properly de-pressurised before checking, which does really need diags tools. Adding fluid without depressurising risks splitting the reservoir if it gets a surge from the accumulator

I believe on the 500 there is a top up procedure without software

Prime the pump by opening the door and the level should be at minimum just to avoid any confusion as I can't select bold I repeat minimum not as in some YouTube videos

The sound of the pump motor is also a good indicator, but recording on a phone probably isn't really good enough. You need to be able to tell if it sounds "wheezy" rather than "crisp".

That's interesting to know, I know the brushes can go in the motor, the change in noise could be due to spinning more slowly

If that the case it links back to the first quote

and how many seconds the pump runs to re-pressurise. Crude, but gives a good idea.

Would be an important starting place

 

[Ferniferous]

With the engine off?
It shouldn't.

Ah sorry, that was with the engine on, my bad. Doesn't roll when in gear or reverse with handbrake off, engine off.

 

[irc]

I believe on the 500 there is a top up procedure without software

Prime the pump by opening the door and the level should be at minimum just to avoid any confusion as I can't select bold I repeat minimum not as in some YouTube videos

I only had one 500 Dualogic, and that was a scrapper I wanted for the actuator, back when I was experimenting with them.
It's the same unit as a Panda (I know coz it went into one of mine and worked fine for a few years until the rest of the car started falling apart)
The YouTube videos could explain a lot of the failures on 500s that I have heard about... is it an "official" procedure or a get-round?
If the accumulator has failed and it gets topped up too high, it splits the reservoir and pops seals in the unit, so I've never recommended doing it.

Anyway, if someone with a known good Dualogic can do a couple of engine-off tests, we can get
Number of changes (N - 1 - 2 - 1 - N - R - N and repeat until pump starts)
Number of seconds pump runs.
Need to stop changes as soon as pump starts or it stuffs the results.

Best of 3 would be nice, would even out anomalies.

Quick comparison will show basic health of actuator and accumulator.

 

[irc]

Ah sorry, that was with the engine on, my bad. Doesn't roll when in gear or reverse with handbrake off, engine off.

Thats OK, basically its sitting with the clutch pedal pressed (except it doesn't have one).

 

[Ferniferous]

However, the slope is where it is normally parked?
Is it your driveway or the side of the road?
If driveway, I have an experiment you can try...
Put a couple of wheel chocks where the front wheels would normally be. Next time you return home, drive up to the chocks, let the car 'lean on them before you put the handbrake on and switch off.
Leave overnight, then try your original normal start-up routine.
Report back.

Not so easy if roadside ththough.

I reverse in and the driveway slopes forward towards the lane but it also slopes sideways, is that's ok?