Technical Rusty oil sump, should I worry?

[HP]

Ever tried to change the sump in-situ on a FIRE engine?

Ever managed to get it sealed properly so it doesn't leak?

From experience it can be a right pain in the arse to do.

 

[DaveMcT]

Is anything (except maybe the air filter) easy access on a FIRE engine?


Loctite Anaerobic sealants work for me.

 

[HP]

This is another job, like the rear beam, where unless it’s badly rotten or you plan to keep it forever then you’re much better employed cleaning it up and painting it.
Putting a sump back with the engine in situ is a proper sod of a job to do without catching some of the sealant on a wire or pipe, or just on the engine and wiping it off, as the sump doesn’t have a gasket this will make it leak. The only time it was easy to do for me was when the engine wasn’t in the car.
Also it’s quite difficult to get the sump off as the sealant is tenacious and the sump made of soft metal.
Not a job to be compared with an oil filter change.

 

[DaveMcT]

This is another job, like the rear beam, where unless it’s badly rotten or you plan to keep it forever then you’re much better employed cleaning it up and painting it.
Putting a sump back with the engine in situ is a proper sod of a job to do without catching some of the sealant on a wire or pipe, or just on the engine and wiping it off, as the sump doesn’t have a gasket this will make it leak. The only time it was easy to do for me was when the engine wasn’t in the car.
Also it’s quite difficult to get the sump off as the sealant is tenacious and the sump made of soft metal.
Not a job to be compared with an oil filter change.

Absolutely not to be compared with an oil change. But there are times when it's best to just bite the bullet and do the job properly.

I've been faffing with hard to reach wires to the alternator with zero effect on it's cold start performance. Eventually bit the bullet and swapped the alternator with a know good one. Problem solved. But its a horrible job with terrible access and even the easy access bolts have open ended holes that seize the threads.
I've done a few sumps (to be fair not on a Panda). The best advice is leave the engine at least overnight so it wont be dripping oil onto you. Use decent tools to clean the gasket face and use an anaerobic sealant applied to the engine joint face. Loctite 518 has been my choice, but working uphill, you will need the syringe style tube.

A dry run always helps as most stuff like this will only go in one way.

If the sump is just surface crud, then by all means clean it off and repaint. But don't expect the miracle rust cures to actually deliver any miracles.

 

[HP]

For 99% of owners it just needs to buy a little time.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Ever tried to change the sump in-situ on a FIRE engine?

Ever managed to get it sealed properly so it doesn't leak?

From experience it can be a right pain in the arse to do.

Get the engine good and hot so oil is thin then park up where you are going to do the job, drain the oil and leave for 24 hours so all the oil drains down out of the block then you won't get too much of a problem with oil getting on the block/sump mating faces when rebuilding. Be prepared for a bit of a struggle getting the old sump off - the Fiat sealant doesn't arf stick! The exhaust is best out of the way too. Some say you can do it with it in place but it's difficult not to "smudge" the sealant as you offer the new sump up. Felicity was quite obliging, or so I thought, but she leaked at the crankshaft end due to the cheapo pattern made sump being a "not very good pattern". Had to drop it off and reseal with heavier application of sealant. I suspect my boy's Punto is going to be an absolute sod as the exhaust flange bolts are so corroded I'm going to have to cut them off and drill the holes out. I'll be buying a sump from S4P for it as I've found their quality to be generally better. Oh! and all those little 6mm bolts and nuts - don't miss the ones hiding at the flywheel end by the way.

Looking at my boy's Punto sump, which isn't actually leaking yet but looks very like the picture earlier in this post, I can't see any point in trying to eradicate the rust. Just bite the bullet and fit a new one. We're hoping it'll last until the good weather returns because I just don't feel robust enough to tackle a job like this in the cold and wet at my age.

 

[DaveMcT]

Much like Jock I guess but over time I've realised that not doing a job properly is just not worth the aggravation. That's not to suggest that a temporary fix has to be shoddy, just that it will be - erm - temporary.

Someone said that for most Panda owners that will be enough. And as most see the car as a stepping stone to, "something better" I'm sure he's right. Sadly people allow themselves to be conned into the old line - that car is too old to be worth the "investment". In some case with high cost faults that's true. But when you look at the costs per month of buying any "better" car that £200 or even £500 bill suddenly looks a whole lot more palatable.


Cars are costly to run. They are almost always a negative investment. The choice is simple - Accept an older car will need more repairs but feel smug that your monthly bills are lower. Or you can gloat at your life success and buy a new one on a never ending PCP drip for considerably more money overall.
Anything in-between will be losing money hand-over-fist in depreciation as soon as you drive it away.

 

[HP]

The point that keeps getting missed here on this forum is there's no point in still having a shiny axle or sump 10 years after it's scrapped. It's just not sound advice sometimes, sorry.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Much like Jock I guess but over time I've realised that not doing a job properly is just not worth the aggravation. That's not to suggest that a temporary fix has to be shoddy, just that it will be - erm - temporary.

Someone said that for most Panda owners that will be enough. And as most see the car as a stepping stone to, "something better" I'm sure he's right. Sadly people allow themselves to be conned into the old line - that car is too old to be worth the "investment". In some case with high cost faults that's true. But when you look at the costs per month of buying any "better" car that £200 or even £500 bill suddenly looks a whole lot more palatable.


Cars are costly to run. They are almost always a negative investment. The choice is simple - Accept an older car will need more repairs but feel smug that your monthly bills are lower. Or you can gloat at your life success and buy a new one on a never ending PCP drip for considerably more money overall.
Anything in-between will be losing money hand-over-fist in depreciation as soon as you drive it away.

You're right Dave. These sort of jobs are best illustrated by the (in my opinion fruitless) task of trying to weld up rusty exhaust pipes! Unless it's a stress fracture in "good" metal, just don't do it - fit a new pipe (but only the part needed).

So then you come to asking "Is it worth it?" That can only be made on an individual basis and with the aid of a reliable crystal ball! If, like some of us here, you are not paying labour and have an in depth understanding of your vehicle then repair is often best as long as there's no serious rust in the body. But, if you're paying someone else to do it, especially if you have little technical knowledge, It's a minefield out there!

Many years ago, when we were getting to know each other and I spent most of my "spare" income on my cars and 'bikes, Mrs Jock likened owning a vehicle to a large hole in the road into which I was frequently pouring my money! I would not disagree with her but would qualify it by saying that training as a motor engineer (is that too posh a term?) and aquiring the wisdom that comes with age has served to reduce the diameter and depth of the hole! - I do see these new security measures, which require factory links to be established for certain procedures, as potentially creating a bottomless hole I won't be able to fill!

 

[DaveMcT]

Unless you are lucky enough to have chosen the "right" classic car (and not used it), cars always cost money. The decisionfor most people is - Do I fix this old box or do I buy new and sod the costs.

For those with no ability or wish to DIY, the sensible option is to buy new and get a stonking warranty. Hyundai here I come.

Those of us with some ability (and perhaps a little time) can take a broader view. It's then, Do I spend £50 on a filthy job and possibly it job again next year or do I spend £100 and never need to look again?

 

[WitleyPanda]

Paint gets scratched or damaged, or originally poorly applied and develops access, even if of microscopic proportions that lets the oxygen and steel get together, helped by moisture.

Most of the rust killers work by converting the plain oxide to a more stable oxide.

A/ Eliminate what rust you can, wire bush, shot blast, glass paper or chemical strip( works well on coil springs and other hard to handle items)

B/ Convert what you cannot remove, proprietary or Machine Mart phosphate acid
C/ Cap off with a good grade of paint, such as POR15 or Rust-Oleum industrial or Hammerite, even a high zinc cold galvanising coating like Zg90 which can then be top coated.

When sump gaskets used to leak and sump be coated with oil was not a problem!

 

[DaveMcT]

When sump gaskets used to leak and sump be coated with oil was not a problem!

How true.

Cleaning and painting or replacing the sump pan are both a pain in the bits so you make you choice and get on with it. The paints are not cheap so costs are probably similar.

 

[jrkitching]

When sump gaskets used to leak and sump be coated with oil was not a problem!

There's nothing to stop you reverting to old fashioned methods.

Just get a good handful of oil (or, perhaps better, high melting point grease) and smear it all over the sump each time you change the oil.

It may not look pretty, but it sure as heck won't corrode.

There are even specialist corrosion proofing greases made for this specific purpose.

Next time you visit a preserved railway, take a look at the working bits of the engines. They're all kept liberally coated with oil & grease.

For corrosion protection, particularly in damp environments, oil & grease work better than paint.

Marine grade grease (on the shelf at your local ship's chandlery) is particularly useful in this application.

 

[DaveMcT]

There's nothing to stop you reverting to old fashioned methods.

Just get a good handful of oil (or, perhaps better, high melting point grease) and smear it all over the sump each time you change the oil.

It may not look pretty, but it sure as heck won't corrode.

There are even specialist corrosion proofing greases made for this specific purpose.

Next time you visit a preserved railway, take a look at the working bits of the engines. They're all kept liberally coated with oil & grease.

For corrosion protection, particularly in damp environments, oil & grease work better than paint.

Marine grade grease (on the shelf at your local ship's chandlery) is particularly useful in this application.

Good point. Chain saw oil is good stuff. Thin it with a little white spirit so it soaks in. Try some clean steel and see how it simply doesn't rust where it's protected.

 

[earthman]

Cars are costly to run. They are almost always a negative investment. The choice is simple - Accept an older car will need more repairs but feel smug that your monthly bills are lower. Or you can gloat at your life success and buy a new one on a never ending PCP drip for considerably more money overall.
Anything in-between will be losing money hand-over-fist in depreciation as soon as you drive it away.

All that is so true, there isn't really a cheap make/model of car nowadays, anything that has 'electronic' this and that especially, most dealer only parts are pricey, well compared to the days when cars had cap and rotor arms shall we say.

I still say that being able to service your own vehicle and keep/run it for many years is the cheapest option, these PCP plans are a mugs game in my opinion, I know a few people who are never done with them, they just keep taking the vehicle back/getting another 'newer model' which results in a larger monthly payment. Lol

I understand that a lot of drivers haven't got the aptitude, time or tools for mechanics, that's fair enough.

 

[DaveMcT]

I do find it annoying when people say this old car is not worth the "investment" in replacement parts so scrap something that could easily be roadworthy for not much money.

Shoveling cash into a new car to find its worth a small fraction of its original cost when its time to move on is a particularly efficient way to lose money. A great "investment"- NOT!

DIY is always the least cost in money terms but even those who have to pay for the labour need to think how the costs of a replacement car will really add up when the older car just needs new parts.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I do find it annoying when people say this old car is not worth the "investment" in replacement parts so scrap something that could easily be roadworthy for not much money.

Shoveling cash into a new car to find its worth a small fraction of its original cost when its time to move on is a particularly efficient way to lose money. A great "investment"- NOT!

DIY is always the least cost in money terms but even those who have to pay for the labour need to think how the costs of a replacement car will really add up when the older car just needs new parts.

For the average every day punter the words "investment" and "car ownership" are, in my opinion, not complimentary to one another. "Damage limitation" might be more appropriate?

 

[DaveMcT]

Car "Ownership" on a PCP deal. Yeah right.


The say if it F***s, flies or float then rent it. For most people - who simply want transport, "drives" should be added to the list.

 

[koalar]

should I worry. No

Should I do something about it. Absolutely

what you do comes down to how long you plan to keep your car.

If it was mine I would just smear in High melting point grease over it.

But then again I only payed a few hundred for the car and couldn't justify the cost of anchor wax or similar

 

[DaveMcT]

But then again I only payed a few hundred for the car and couldn't justify the cost of anchor wax or similar

I'm not trying to be rude but you make my point. Yes, the car was cheap but that does not mean its also nasty. If some basic repairs keep it going then you have low cost transport.

The alternatives might be prettier and nicer to use and could be reasons to move on. If all you need is a car then the Panda does the trick remarkably well. If that's cost just £600 then WayHey!! Bring it on.

But like any car it will need some TLC. What's cheaper than a wire brush and bottle of chain saw oil & paint thinners?