Technical Please! oh no I can not shut off my 3.0 Ducato

[bugsymike]

Hi again I have a 2014 3.0 Conversion I love

Remember My van will not shut off even when I take the key out. It will start and it runs good but when you go to shut it off nothing happens all the dashboard panels lights are out, it just won't stop running.

1. Engine won't switch off normal, Built you turn the key from off to on very slightly as if turning on, the engine shuts down.


3. There is a battery draw when the key is off or when the key in the half- on position that stop the motor.

4. Several relays under the hood and other things our clicking all at the same time on and off with no steady pattern when the key is off
or in the half position.

5 Disconnected all non factory wiring.

Maybe ???
ECU RELAY
ECU
key switch

In the past I would definitely say ignition switch fault from those symptoms and even today with all the electronics , I would test that area first with a multimeter.
You could try some proper electronics switch cleaner spray which dries out to nothing leaving no residue (unlike WD40 types) in and around the ignition switch whilst working it several times with battery disconnected, then when dry see if it has changed the situation.

 

[Communicator]

I think that it is important to distinguish between the ignition switch, and the ignition lock barrel. These are items 1, and 2 respectively in the attached diagram. The diagram relates to an x244 model, but I expect later models to be similar.

 

[g8rpi]

I'd concur, likely to be a faulty ignition switch. This could be electrcal or mechanical.
Does it stop is you turn off and then unplug the connector on the ignition switch?

 

[jackwhoo]

If you remove the plastic shrouds from the steering column you should be able to find the electrical ignition switch that is operated by the key. There will be either an electric connector to the switch which can be unplugged or wires from the switch to a plug and socket.

 

[Communicator]

On my 2006 x244, the wiring plugs directly into the ignition switch. The switch has two connectors, a 3 way and a 4 way. On the three way connector, the centre pin is the 12V supply with the other two connectors being used for the starter motor, and ignition. On my vehicle the ignition wire is the orange wire. Removing just this connector would normally stop the engine. However I am wondering whether the problem may be in the engine bay fusebox, which is a known source of problems. Hence my comments in post #5.

 

[varesecrazy]

Plenty to check for @JOJOLYLE

 

[Communicator]

On my 2006 x244, the wiring plugs directly into the ignition switch. The switch has two connectors, a 3 way and a 4 way. On the three way connector, the centre pin is the 12V supply with the other two connectors being used for the starter motor, and ignition. Removing just this connector would normally stop the engine. However I am wondering wether the problem may be in the engine bay fusebox, which is a known source of problems.

 

[JOJOLYLE]

Thank you

If you remove the plastic shrouds from the steering column you should be able to find the electrical ignition switch that is operated by the key. There will be either an electric connector to the switch which can be unplugged or wires from the switch to a plug and socket.

That is what I'll try next. A disassembled in the dash start the motor turn the key off disconnect the connector.

If you remove the plastic shrouds from the steering column you should be able to find the electrical ignition switch that is operated by the key. There will be either an electric connector to the switch which can be unplugged or wires from the switch to a plug and socket.

I'd concur, likely to be a faulty ignition switch. This could be electrcal or mechanical.
Does it stop is you turn off and then unplug the connector on the ignition switch?

I will try that next.

 

[Anthony489]

Hi JOJOLYLE

These engines are stopped by removing power to the ECU by turning off the ignition switch. This instantly cuts power to the injectors, stopping any fuel into the cylinders The throttle body flap is also closed, which starves the engine of air. That gives a quicker stop, but is a refinement and not essential.

From your description the ignition/starter switch is behaving unusually and may be faulty. The switch part and the key barrel/steering lock can be separated, so you should be able to replace just the electrical switch.

There are actually four switches ganged together. This is partly because some non-essential electrical items turn on in the first key position, but are temporarily turned off in the second key position when you crank the engine, in order to reduce load on the battery (The INT/A circuit). See the attached diagram.

If this is a Motorhome/RV conversion with a second (Habitation) battery, a fault with the habitation battery charging circuit could cause the second battery to power the dashboard and engine electrics by "back feeding". I don't think this is your problem but it is something to be aware of.

 

[JOJOLYLE]

Hi JOJOLYLE

These engines are stopped by removing power to the ECU by turning off the ignition switch. This instantly cuts power to the injectors, stopping any fuel into the cylinders The throttle body flap is also closed, which starves the engine of air. That gives a quicker stop, but is a refinement and not essential.

From your description the ignition/starter switch is behaving unusually and may be faulty. The switch part and the key barrel/steering lock can be separated, so you should be able to replace just the electrical switch.

There are actually four switches ganged together. This is partly because some non-essential electrical items turn on in the first key position, but are temporarily turned off in the second key position when you crank the engine, in order to reduce load on the battery (The INT/A circuit). See the attached diagram.

If this is a Motorhome/RV conversion with a second (Habitation) battery, a fault with the habitation battery charging circuit could cause the second battery to power the dashboard and engine electrics by "back feeding". I don't think this is your problem but it is something to be aware of.

After I disconnect all electrical from the ignition switch, it still runs slightly rough with the key out. Reconnect and put the key back in no change. I turn to on, it runs smoother, back to the Off position, slight rough , then half way to the on position, it shuts down but Still has a battery draw with multiple relay clicking Really strange.
ECU?
ECU relay?

 

[Communicator]

After I disconnect all electrical from the ignition switch, it still runs slightly rough with the key out. Reconnect and put the key back in no change. I turn to on, it runs smoother, back to the Off position, slight rough , then half way to the on position, it shuts down but Still has a battery draw with multiple relay clicking Really strange.
ECU?
ECU relay?

Engine bay fusebox? This has been known to devlope both short circuits, and high resistance contacts.

 

[the green vanper]

It would be also interesting to know if the 2014 Promaster is the x250 or the x290. Looking over the web it seems that it's the x250, which are know for water ingress into the engine bay. So, there are many things to check: fusebox, ECU, wires, connectors, grounding points...

Reading error codes on MES could be helpful.

A small short on a wire or connector could be enough to give this behavior

 

[JOJOLYLE]

It would be also interesting to know if the 2014 Promaster is the x250 or the x290. Looking over the web it seems that it's the x250, which are know for water ingress into the engine bay. So, there are many things to check: fusebox, ECU, wires, connectors, grounding points...

Reading error codes on MES could be helpful.

A small short on a wire or connector could be enough to give this behavior

It would be also interesting to know if the 2014 Promaster is the x250 or the x290. Looking over the web it seems that it's the x250, which are know for water ingress into the engine bay. So, there are many things to check: fusebox, ECU, wires, connectors, grounding points...

Reading error codes on MES could be helpful.

A small short on a wire or connector could be enough to give this behavior

You may be correct but I'm not sure I want you to be. That could be hard to find. Maybe take it into the dealer (hate that) take it and have them check out the ECU. According to these diagrams it doesn't look like there's any relays between the ign. switch and the ECU. I think one of the big clues is the fact that the ECU stays on but the dash cluster doesn't. I really don't want to take that ECU off and start reading voltages it's hard to get to I think. Since the motor runs with the key off i get 20 plus codes. mostly communication failure codes. We live in Florida and the van has seen some serious weather. Maybe you can spot something in the diagrams, It looks like the ECU (MO10) gets one constant and three three switched from the key Thanks

 

[the green vanper]

I don't know how the dealers work in the US, but in Europe they don't repair, they replace the parts. ECU itself would be a couple of hundred USD for start. The fusebox can be another couple of $$$.

If not trying by myself, I'd try to find a car / van workshop which deals with electric / electronic problems, not the dealer.

The parts are quite easily accessible under the bonnet, the documentation is available online. But yes, finding the real cause can take some time.

FYI, that's how the BCM module (the one by the driver's knee) looks like in the inside (I have not dismantled the ECU though, so I have no idea if it looks similar, or not at all, but it should more or less be the same type of PCB to deal with):

At the same time I'd try to do the necessary things to eliminate those water leaks in the future.

 

[bugsymike]

Could a sticking relay in the fusebox be a possibility, if staying live with ignition off it could back feed another circuit.
At least it seems the ignition switch has been eliminated.

 

[JOJOLYLE]

I don't know how the dealers work in the US, but in Europe they don't repair, they replace the parts. ECU itself would be a couple of hundred USD for start. The fusebox can be another couple of $$$.

If not trying by myself, I'd try to find a car / van workshop which deals with electric / electronic problems, not the dealer.

The parts are quite easily accessible under the bonnet, the documentation is available online. But yes, finding the real cause can take some time.

FYI, that's how the BCM module (the one by the driver's knee) looks like in the inside (I have not dismantled the ECU though, so I have no idea if it looks similar, or not at all, but it should more or less be the same type of PCB to deal with):

View attachment 454706
View attachment 454707

At the same time I'd try to do the necessary things to eliminate those water leaks in the future.

Will a good electronic auto shop have access to the same kind of diagnostic equipment as a dealer. I love the challenge of a do it yourself but testing the ecu would be tough. If there was a stuck relay as in mentioned earlier. I would think that would show up in diagnostic. I would gladly pay 200 bucks to know what this problem is.

 

[bugsymike]

Will a good electronic auto shop have access to the same kind of diagnostic equipment as a dealer. I love the challenge of a do it yourself but testing the ecu would be tough. If there was a stuck relay as in mentioned earlier. I would think that would show up in diagnostic. I would gladly pay 200 bucks to know what this problem is.

Some do and some don't,.
Regarding the relay I was thinking you could note the position and substitute for a different one, whilst also checking no signs of burning or corrosion around the socket.
A good diagnostic program used by Forum Members is MES which has a module activation facility to test some items and you run it from a window computer or tablet.
Sometimes it is possible to feel which relays become live clicking under your fingers as the battery is reconnected or whatever you have to do when testing.

 

[the green vanper]

the battery is reconnected or whatever you have to do when testing.

There is a special procedure for the x250 and newer models to disconnect / reconnect the battery to avoid the airbag module failure.

 

[JOJOLYLE]

Some do and some don't,.
Regarding the relay I was thinking you could note the position and substitute for a different one, whilst also checking no signs of burning or corrosion around the socket.
A good diagnostic program used by Forum Members is MES which has a module activation facility to test some items and you run it from a window computer or tablet.
Sometimes it is possible to feel which relays become live clicking under your fingers as the battery is reconnected or whatever you have to do when testing.

This diagram shows all the electrical from the ignition switch to the ECU and other devices.

 

[the green vanper]

Will a good electronic auto shop have access to the same kind of diagnostic equipment as a dealer. I love the challenge of a do it yourself but testing the ecu would be tough. If there was a stuck relay as in mentioned earlier. I would think that would show up in diagnostic. I would gladly pay 200 bucks to know what this problem is.

First diagnosis is purely visual. Basic cleaning can be done with hot water, alcohol and brushes. If there is some serious damage, specialized equipement and knowledge can be required.

FIAT dealer won't be playing with such things, they will replace the whole module / looms etc.