Technical Panda 4x4 Wheels & Tyres

[Rondine]

I have just got my 10.th Fiat, a 5 month old Panda 4x4 Wild '23. I was surprised that the car had Continental summer tyres (175/65 R 15).
I want to fit alternative wheels with all season or winter tyres as I live in Scotland. I have Fiat 14 inch steel wheels with 175/65 winter tyres,
but reckon these will have too small a diameter.
I also have unused Fiat 14 inch alloys and wonder if these can be used, but using which tyre size ?
I am hesitating buying 15 inch wheels now as I will eventually fit all season tyres to the wheels which are on the car.
( I have too many wheels with winter tyres from past cars which I didn't have time to sell. Dealers are not giving anything for these during trade in
as opposed to the practice in countries requiring winter tyres.}

I am very pleased with my car which has a good infotainment system, but can't understand why Fiat fitted summer tyres and dropped the fog lights.
I am considering fitting some FF100 Hella elliptical fog lights. Does anyone have experience with fitting fog lights ?
I was looking at 4x4 Cross cars, but they were a bit costly. Would have liked the hill descend system on the Cross.
I had a panda 4x4 with a 'fire ' engine in 1990. Pity I didn't hold on to this as I believe there are only about a dozen of these left in the UK.

Good to have just joined the forum.

 

[WitleyPanda]

Legal and safe, but could present a logical problem if you ever get a puncture.

 

[JayAre]

Legal and safe, but could present a logical problem if you ever get a puncture.

Fortunately the car had some factory options including space saver spare so this should work front + back?

 

[WitleyPanda]

Fortunately the car had some factory options including space saver spare so this should work front + back?

Space saver legal in any position, assuming it has minimum thread, correct inflation pressure and operating within its speed restriction, purely as a recovery aid. However you may have preferred to fit it to the rear typically. There is also the increasing possibility of dual punctures due to pot holes. If you use AA/RAC and they decide to fit a multi fit to assist you they may decide to fit to rear also. I did say could, not would and moving you to a place of safety may well override preference. The other constraint is the inability of rotation of the tyres, but this practice seem to be a far less common now, probably due to cost of labour to do so.

 

[JayAre]

Space saver legal in any position, assuming it has minimum thread, correct inflation pressure and operating within its speed restriction, purely as a recovery aid. However you may have preferred to fit it to the rear typically. There is also the increasing possibility of dual punctures due to pot holes. If you use AA/RAC and they decide to fit a multi fit to assist you they may decide to fit to rear also. I did say could, not would and moving you to a place of safety may well override preference. The other constraint is the inability of rotation of the tyres, but this practice seem to be a far less common now, probably due to cost of labour to do so.

Punctures sure are day spoilers - and a double puncture could mean someone really doesn’t like you… But I’m happier with a spacesaver than a can of snot

Full rotation is only possible with symmetric tread patterns. AS tyres mainly seem to be directional, and I’m pretty sure the Vreds I had (M+S?) were asymmetric (both types, of course, only changeable front to rear same side).

Makes achieving even tyre wear quite tricky (4x4 advice is to fit new tyres all round to avoid transmission damage)

 

[A3jeroen]

Circumference of a 175/65 14 will differ (a LOT!) from 175/65 15. Driving with a difference can (and will) destroy parts of your 4x4 system.

Oh. And a spacesaver should ALWAYS be on a non driven wheel (rear on a Fiat)

gr J

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

Punctures sure are day spoilers - and a double puncture could mean someone really doesn’t like you… But I’m happier with a spacesaver than a can of snot

Full rotation is only possible with symmetric tread patterns. AS tyres mainly seem to be directional, and I’m pretty sure the Vreds I had (M+S?) were asymmetric (both types, of course, only changeable front to rear same side).

Makes achieving even tyre wear quite tricky (4x4 advice is to fit new tyres all round to avoid transmission damage)

Moving tyres from one side of a car (any car) to the other has been considered bad practice for many years. Front to back, yes, but only on the same side, and even if the tread is not rotation-specific

Using a space saver on a front (ie steered) wheel should be avoided where possible. It can go on the front to allow you to drive away to a safer location but best put on the rear as soon as possible. And, the crucial bit that a lot of folk overlook - a spacesaver is limited to 50mph maximum (the ‘80’ on the big yellow label is km/hr)

 

[JayAre]

Moving tyres from one side of a car (any car) to the other has been considered bad practice for many years. Front to back, yes, but only on the same side, and even if the tread is not rotation-specific

tyre companies are still recommending full rotation (unless directional or asymmetric) and things like ABS, ESC, ASR etc seem to require even tyre wear to work properly (and 4x4 systems too) and full rotation (where possible) seems to offer the most effective wear mitigation

How To Rotate Your Tyres For Best Wear | Goodyear Tyres

Read advice from Goodyear on the importance of rotating your tyres to maintain balanced handling and traction, and who can perform the task for you.

www.goodyear.eu

Using a space saver on a front (ie steered) wheel should be avoided where possible. It can go on the front to allow you to drive away to a safer location but best put on the rear as soon as possible. And, the crucial bit that a lot of folk overlook - a spacesaver is limited to 50mph maximum (the ‘80’ on the big yellow label is km/hr)

agreed. But I’d prefer doing this than the spray can - the detailed instructions required are just too much - and having done it with my previous 169 4x4 the 50mph limit wasn’t a problem (wasn’t using a motorway)

 

[Bonefish Blues]

Moving tyres from one side of a car (any car) to the other has been considered bad practice for many years. Front to back, yes, but only on the same side, and even if the tread is not rotation-specific

Using a space saver on a front (ie steered) wheel should be avoided where possible. It can go on the front to allow you to drive away to a safer location but best put on the rear as soon as possible. And, the crucial bit that a lot of folk overlook - a spacesaver is limited to 50mph maximum (the ‘80’ on the big yellow label is km/hr)

Half the time they are almost flat too because it's very rare a driver remembers to check and re inflate.

 

[WitleyPanda]

Circumference of a 175/65 14 will differ (a LOT!) from 175/65 15. Driving with a difference can (and will) destroy parts of your 4x4 system.

Oh. And a spacesaver should ALWAYS be on a non driven wheel (rear on a Fiat)

gr J

Myth that driving with different wheels will damage 4x4 or traction control. I was involved with what is now know as the AAmulti-fit wheel. A single size space save with several different adapter flanges so as to suit different PCDs, on from memory wheels of 13-15” . Older vehicles used manually selected LSD functions so just don’t select whilst space saver deployed. Newer electronic based system learn and remap. Prove if required is that systems can also deal with differences in inflation pressures.

Re-iterating that 50mph is the MAXIMUM.

 

[JayAre]

Myth that driving with different wheels will damage 4x4 or traction control. I was involved with what is now know as the AAmulti-fit wheel. A single size space save with several different adapter flanges so as to suit different PCDs, on from memory wheels of 13-15” . Older vehicles used manually selected LSD functions so just don’t select whilst space saver deployed. Newer electronic based system learn and remap. Prove if required is that systems can also deal with differences in inflation pressures.

Re-iterating that 50mph is the MAXIMUM.

there is a curious mixed-messaging in the handbook:

Space saver: “If the space-saver wheel is used, the control unit for 4x4 drive detects its presence (via the wheel speed signals) and reduces the intervention of the four-wheel drive mode to a minimum, while guaranteeing the agility of the vehicle” (confirming what you posted)

But 2 pages later:
“For the correct operation of the ABS /ASR /ESC, the tyres must of necessity be the same make and type on all wheels, in perfect condition and, above all, of the prescribed type and dimensions”

 

[WitleyPanda]

there is a curious mixed-messaging in the handbook:

Space saver: “If the space-saver wheel is used, the control unit for 4x4 drive detects its presence (via the wheel speed signals) and reduces the intervention of the four-wheel drive mode to a minimum, while guaranteeing the agility of the vehicle” (confirming what you posted)

But 2 pages later:
“For the correct operation of the ABS /ASR /ESC, the tyres must of necessity be the same make and type on all wheels, in perfect condition and, above all, of the prescribed type and dimensions”

Not a mixed message, merely telling you that with different wheels you get different performance. Same wheels, pattern, wear, full agility. Different wheels, not full specification performance (but no damage). Another reason to limit speed with the spaceaver !!

 

[JayAre]

Not a mixed message, merely telling you that with different wheels you get different performance. Same wheels, pattern, wear, full agility. Different wheels, not full specification performance (but no damage). Another reason to limit speed with the spaceaver !!

Maybe “mixed messaging” wasn’t the best phrase: the handbook goes to the trouble of explaining (as it should) that having a space saver fitted isn’t a problem for the 4x4 system but then fails to also point out (a significant failing) that with the space saver fitted these other safety systems will not operate “correctly” (or even not at all?) - perhaps “inadequate” is better?

 

[WitleyPanda]

Maybe “mixed messaging” wasn’t the best phrase: the handbook goes to the trouble of explaining (as it should) that having a space saver fitted isn’t a problem for the 4x4 system but then fails to also point out (a significant failing) that with the space saver fitted these other safety systems will not operate “correctly” (or even not at all?) - perhaps “inadequate” is better?

It is a limp home, it has limitations. Perhaps this should be more widely publicised? It why people would prefer a proper spare, a fifth wheel. Till the quality of road deteriorated, pot holes etc, the rate of issues, punctures, damage to wheels was decreasing, helped by improvement to tyre quality, whilst drivers wanted more load spare and manufacturers wanted to cut cost. So a space saver is a compromise a limp home, maybe they should be marked with an even lower max speed to drum in the message?

 

[JayAre]

It is a limp home, it has limitations. Perhaps this should be more widely publicised? It why people would prefer a proper spare, a fifth wheel. Till the quality of road deteriorated, pot holes etc, the rate of issues, punctures, damage to wheels was decreasing, helped by improvement to tyre quality, whilst drivers wanted more load spare and manufacturers wanted to cut cost. So a space saver is a compromise a limp home, maybe they should be marked with an even lower max speed to drum in the message?

it is what it is - a 50mph rated tyre
People die in much lower speed collisions
which is why I think the handbook is inadequate in omitting any mention of the withdrawal of 3 important safety features that drivers may (reasonably) believe to also be unaffected

 

[The Panda Nut]

I've got just under 41mpg best and just over 36mpg worse out of my Cross Twinair in the first 1500 miles. I've also put Cross Climate 2's on it

Summer tyres are worth 5mpg. I have Michelin Alpin winters and they are very good and wearing very well. They are excellent on ice and snow but quite noisy. We have Goodyear Vectors on another car and they are very good in the wet but a bit noisy too, Conti summers are very good but untried on snow etc. They handle rain well and are quiet wear is a bit disappointing. Noop (TA 4x4) has nw reached 22k and as reported by others on here, he has just come alive and now setteld at 46mpg I dare not look at the average speed for yesterday but suspect it will be 50+mph for the 500mile trip, On a flat road at 50mph it shows around 75mpg instant consumption. I am now very happy with the economy. The combination of economy and performance is stunning. The TA can easily keep up with outside lane traffic which is pretty remarkable.

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

there is a curious mixed-messaging in the handbook:

Space saver: “If the space-saver wheel is used, the control unit for 4x4 drive detects its presence (via the wheel speed signals) and reduces the intervention of the four-wheel drive mode to a minimum, while guaranteeing the agility of the vehicle” (confirming what you posted)

But 2 pages later:
“For the correct operation of the ABS /ASR /ESC, the tyres must of necessity be the same make and type on all wheels, in perfect condition and, above all, of the prescribed type and dimensions”

ABS etc will all still work, but owing to the reduced grip of an undersized tyre, perhaps less well.

I think this thread is suffering 'subject drift' and has moved away quite a long way from the original thread?

 

[JayAre]

ABS etc will all still work, but owing to the reduced grip of an undersized tyre, perhaps less well.

I think this thread is suffering 'subject drift' and has moved away quite a long way from the original thread?

well, the handbook is saying something else: “For the correct operation of the ABS /ASR /ESC, the tyres must of necessity be the same make and type on all wheels, in perfect condition and, above all, of the prescribed type and dimensions”

Seems clear you won’t get “correct operation” (whatever that means) unless all 4 tyres are, in one word, “perfect” - it would be good to know what “(in)correct operation” means here

btw the thread is “Panda 4x4 Wheels & Tyres” - sorry if I wrongly understood the title to define the permitted scope

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

well, the handbook is saying something else: “For the correct operation of the ABS /ASR /ESC, the tyres must of necessity be the same make and type on all wheels, in perfect condition and, above all, of the prescribed type and dimensions”

Seems clear you won’t get “correct operation” (whatever that means) unless all 4 tyres are, in one word, “perfect” - it would be good to know what “(in)correct operation” means here

btw the thread is “Panda 4x4 Wheels & Tyres” - sorry if I wrongly understood the title to define the permitted scope

Its good to see that its not just me that reads in handbook (with many threads here, the answer to the questions being asked are in the handbook )

The crucial phrase is 'correct operation' . When the space saver is fitted, the ABS system may choose to not function at the end of the car the space saver wheel is on. And if thats the case, the ABS warning light will show. However, I've never seen it come on when driving with the space saver (two punctures, both caused by a screw caught in the tyre), so it appears not to be an issue. I suspect that if you drove a few days, or too many miles, the system might then show the warning...

The space saver is only to get you -- ideally on the same day -- to the nearest tyre depot to have the puncture fixed. So you'd probably not be driving more than say 20 miles on it, and should be driving more slowly and carefully to compensate for it's lower grip too, so this might all a be a bit hypothetical anyway?

Consider this: the simple action of going around a corner will mean the wheels on the inside of the curve go much slower than those around the outside but ABS doesn't protest for that... Also, a new tyre with 8mm of tread depth and an old tyre with 2mm of tread on the same axle -- which means there's a 12mm difference in diameter of the tyres across the car, doesn't seem to stop ABS etc from working -- i don't think it is *that* sensitive and is only really looking for a wheel that has locked (ie stopped rotating altogether). Or, the other way around, ESC is looking for a wheel spinning much faster than the others.

As an aside, it is because of that 12mm difference in diameter that speedos can never be accurate, as they have to allow for that degree of variation of the rolling diameter as the tyres wear out.

(Oh, the original thread was asking about the fact that later 4x4xs came from the factory with smaller, summer tyres, rather than the winter or all-season fitted to earlier ones...)

 

[JayAre]

Its good to see that its not just me that reads in handbook (with many threads here, the answer to the questions being asked are in the handbook )

Thanks!
- this is definitely off-topic but I have the 2012 + 2016 (same as my car’s) Panda handbook pdf’s - so much easier to find stuff - would members find these useful +if so where would be a good place to post them? (the pdfs or links)

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

Thanks!
- this is definitely off-topic but I have the 2012 + 2016 (same as my car’s) Panda handbook pdf’s - so much easier to find stuff - would members find these useful +if so where would be a good place to post them? (the pdfs or links)

I think they’re already in the Forum’s documents library, as well as in Fiat’s website…