General My new purchase stalls literally every time.. can't even make a 5 miles trip in 2 days

[Sylvester22]

Hi all, I've just posted my newbie-thread, unfortunately I've mentioned there's been a very odd and big issue, and I'm looking for some opinions please.

Just in nutshell: my Bravo, The Tazmania Devil, according to the previous owner, had no issue like this before. He looked very honest, even told me stuff I'd no chance seeing, had all paperwork, M32 was done as well, car seemed well taken car off.

After buying the Bravo, driving back home 20 minutes on a bumpy road went fine, but then reversing on the driveway, after few seconds the engine slowly died. I thought it has Start-Stop, which hasn't got, so I didn't think much of it, but a bit later it didn't want to start again.
After 30min wait, it started right up.
Talked to the seller, I said let's wait and see.

Then next day, I went to register the car on my name, a few quick engine start-ups went fine, as the station had to checks vin numbers by law, but when all was done, the car didn't start again. After 45 minutes it fired up suddenly, but 2 streets later the engine CUTS OUT during drive! I barely managed to pull off a busy street. Bit of wait and car starts again, I'm very stressed, but thinking it must be something of a small issue, I drove home those few streets.

Next day, on Saturday afternoon I went for a 30min drive, it was really nice, but after reversing to the parking bay, the engine slowly cut again, and didn't want to start.
Hill-start and ASR, ESP lights come on usually, but they dissappeare after few minutes drive.

Sunday I drove to the seller, we checked the car and found the fuel cap broken. I was thinking that may be the issue, the seller felt bad and gave me 4 alloys, which I payed 50% off, I needed them for winter anyway. I didn't want to give up on the car, so I carried on.

Unfortunately I couldn't even driven off, the engine didn't want to start. I waited an hour, still nothing, so left the Bravo there and came home. Thanks mum for the lifts.
Today, I went back and engine fired up right away. Changed the fuel cap too. Then 5 min later, I had to reverse back due road closure, then in 2nd gear, with a sudden jerk, the engine cuts out again. I bought a not-cheap but simple OBD scanner, only one in my area, and the fault code mentioning Turbo Solenoid came up. I deleted as could've been an old code, but the car still didn't start, even after an hour wait. No more fault codes after that either.

2nd time the car has been parked on some street far away from me, as it stalls so often, it can't even make a 5 mile trip back home.

What I've noticed:
-the battery was suspicious, but it's only a few months old and has 13v.
-Half of engine cuts happen shortly after reversing
-No EML light. The occasional ASR and ESP lights go away after 1-2 minutes drive.
-apart from the Turbo Solenoid code, no other codes shown, but it's a cheap scanner. I'm getting Multiecuscan, but order takes over a week.
-Brake light switch has been changed, brake lights don't show when they not supposed to.
-engine temp solid around middle
-no beeping sound, the engine just cuts out like it has Start-Stop.
-Chip tuning is 2.5 years old
-Oil bit dark but been changed 4 months ago.
-After a few hours wait the engine fires up, but cuts out soon enough, then requires many hours of wait again
-During driving sudden jerk and engine dies(2 times) or after reverse parking (8-10 times). These happened in a span of 4 days. For now, my only suspicion is Turbo Solenoid failure, perhaps the turbo over-heats and cuts the engine.

QUESTIONS: I've found the 1.4 t-jet Turbo Solenoid part number, 55203202/70060700, but can't find info on it's location, and how to change it. Any link on that?

With the chip-tuning is around 150hp, so should I look for part for original 120hp verison, or 150hp version?
I've good basis with cars, I'd changed Throttle Bodies, adapted EGR etc, but never had a Turbo car.
I'm going back tomorrow as well, I may even make it back home...
Thanks in advance, any help is appreciated.

 

[Sylvester22]

ECU didn't made it up. I'd say it reads it from the sensor.

Cheers for the info, it's getting confusing for sure, I'll try a few things and then gotta call Fait. Unfortunately the corner-mechanics are infamous for keeping and using, which is a no no for me, the cars for weeks even over a month, and sometimes making things even worse

 

[Sylvester22]

Your problem is not temperature sensor .

That's probably true, my previous car had that issue and the symptoms were different. But there's no coolant leak, expansion tank is good as well, dashboard gauge solid in middle, the fan didn't turn on either. Yet shows "excessive temperature".

So I've been thinking, when I'd removed the coolant cap, I saw a bubble on top. Is that possible, there's an air-pocket in the system, and only the fumes get to the sensor, so ECU thinks engine is extremely hot? I'll leave the cap off and run the engine, see if more bubbles come up. That could explain, why the 4th plug on my previous picture-post, is warner than the rest, it's near that sensor.
Rest of wires look good, earthing cables too, even inside ECU connectors are like new.

Spark plugs are few months old.
Cold start is great, shows : "No signal, Stored, Light ON" when engine stalls, the CAN shows "fatal" code.

Few datas, some may be old, as I've never revved the car over 4k rmp:

Today's to-do list:
-new Camshaft sensor, can cause similar issues, just to be sure
-Paraflu Up if top up needed, when checking for bubbles.
-Wires check from fuse box to ECU.

If still nothing, I'll have to call Fiat, and arrange for a trailer too. I don't want to cause more stress on the engine, I may damage other
Cheers

 

[aschiuta]

That's probably true, my previous car had that issue and the symptoms were different. But there's no coolant leak, expansion tank is good as well, dashboard gauge solid in middle, the fan didn't turn on either. Yet shows "excessive temperature".

So I've been thinking, when I'd removed the coolant cap, I saw a bubble on top. Is that possible, there's an air-pocket in the system, and only the fumes get to the sensor, so ECU thinks engine is extremely hot? I'll leave the cap off and run the engine, see if more bubbles come up. That could explain, why the 4th plug on my previous picture-post, is warner than the rest, it's near that sensor.
Rest of wires look good, earthing cables too, even inside ECU connectors are like new.

Spark plugs are few months old.
Cold start is great, shows : "No signal, Stored, Light ON" when engine stalls, the CAN shows "fatal" code.

Few datas, some may be old, as I've never revved the car over 4k rmp:
View attachment 456082View attachment 456083

Today's to-do list:
-new Camshaft sensor, can cause similar issues, just to be sure
-Paraflu Up if top up needed, when checking for bubbles.
-Wires check from fuse box to ECU.

If still nothing, I'll have to call Fiat, and arrange for a trailer too. I don't want to cause more stress on the engine, I may damage other
Cheers

The only sensor who show the engine ( coolant ) temperature is near thermostat. Nothing else show your engine temperature. The temperature sensor is in engine cooling circuit not in radiator cooling circuit so even the termostat is close the temperature sensor show you the coolant temperature. At 87 degree is not enough temperature to kick the radiator fan. Need to be over 90-95 degree for start the fan. In picture boost pressure from turbo is too high than the desired boost pressure. Probably the wastegate dont works or solenoid with 3 paths dont work. Look at the ecu voltage when the engine is hot.

 

[Sylvester22]

Look at the ecu voltage when the engine is hot.

That was the issue, the gauge temp was solid middle, but the display said "excessive heat, turn engine off".

The voltage was 14.4v , engine stalled after quickly pumping the gas a few times, then voltage didn't show on MES.

Yes I see that, the left side of turbo get really hot too. This is the solenoid, if I'm right

And this is the wastegate on top of Turbo:

Can these turbo issues shut the engine off so suddenly? I've just read, the chip-tuning can cause this too, as pressure is too high.
Looks like a simple pull-plug, I'll check it out as well.
Cheers

 

[Mike1alike]

If you have air pockets in the cooling system, on the one hand, due to constant moving of liquid it's impossible for the air pocket to sit just around the sensor and on the other hand, the sensor is designed to read temperature only from liquid. If you have it "in the air" it gives no reading. If there is air in the system, you should bleed that out through the breathers, not the cap.
What's happening in the points I've yellow circled in your photo? What's going on with those hoses?
The turbo getting hot as you say might not be a problem. Isn't the part getting hot that part that exhaust gas goes through?! If it is, it's normal for turbo to be hot, the exhaust gas being very very very hot.
The turbo issues can suddenly shut the engine off, yes. So you should investigate that lead.
Don't you have a stored error with more details in regard with that high temperature?

 

[Sylvester22]

If there is air in the system, you should bleed that out through the breathers, not the cap.

Where's the bleeding valve location?

The yellow circles, are the removed air hoses, that is part of the plastic engine cover. Interesting design least to say. When that comes off, the hoses will have open ends, so they needs some kind of plugging. Can be annoying to remove, takes 2 bolts, 1 rubber seal peg at back, 2 hose clips have to be removed, just for the engine cover.

No other codes shows with MES, only those 2 mentioned above.

That side of turbo supposed to be the fresh air intake, not the exhaust side, so it shouldn't get too-hot to touch when the car just idling.
Signs show pressure is blocked around the turbo, so I'll be busy today with that.

 

[aschiuta]

...... other hand, the sensor is designed to read temperature only from liquid. If you have it "in the air" it gives no reading.

Wrong! The sensor is thermistor as electrical components. It read the temperature of the air, of the liquid or any object in contact with the sensor. As the temperature increases, the resistance of the sensor decreases.
These are the resistance values at different temperatures. So when appear the overtemperature message you can stop the engine, remove the plug from temp. sensor and measure the resistence with multimeter.

 

[aschiuta]

That side of turbo supposed to be the fresh air intake, not the exhaust side, so it shouldn't get too-hot to touch when the car just idling.
Signs show pressure is blocked around the turbo, so I'll be busy today with that.

Wrong supposition. Turbo unit is made from metal. On turbo flow the oil which is the primary liquid which cool the engine. The oil temperature is arround 100-110 degree. On the hot part of the turbo the exaust combustion gases are on 300 up degree. Why do you think the intake air side of the turbo unit is not hot? It is hot and this is one of the reason of existing intercooler unit. As I said the principal problem is U1601 = can network off.
You can try to check if you can communicate with ecu after u1601 appear. Restart the key in MAR postion and try to communicate with, ECU, BCM, ABS, Airbag, and so on, computers units. Record any data you can from these.

 

[Sylvester22]

Wrong supposition. Turbo unit is made from metal. On turbo flow the oil which is the primary liquid which cool the engine. The oil temperature is arround 100-110 degree. On the hot part of the turbo the exaust combustion gases are on 300 up degree. Why do you think the intake air side of the turbo unit is not hot? It is hot and this is one of the reason of existing intercooler unit. As I said the principal problem is U1601 = cab network off.
You can try to check if you can communicate with ecu after u1601 appear. Restart the key in MAR postion and try to communicate with, ECU, BCM, ABS, Airbag, and so on, computers units. Record any data you can from these.

Yes cheers, that's what I'm doing now. I'm about to change the Camshaft sensor to be sure, and then I'll check the values with MES.

There's been mentions of cold and hot side of turbos, this is my 1st one so not sure, but I thought cold side mean where the air comes from. I'll keep an eye on the Desired Boost and Boost pressure.

I'm gonna check the wastegate as well, seems a few bits needs to be removed.

 

[Mike1alike]

Where's the bleeding valve location?

The breathers should be one on top of the radiator and another on the hose that goes to the heater inside the boot.

Here is a fix for the U1601 error, posted by someone on another forum:
"Hello

The car was repaired and I owe you all to tell what was wrong,I'm not that such a man, when there is no longer a problem, he does not care.whew
It was a cut brown wire above transmission, the shift mechanism is scrubbed and this wire made so many mistakes...
Now the clump of wires tied with cable ties so that it is prevented from further rubbing

If this someone helps, please press thanks or rep.
Thank you all for your help"​

 

[Mike1alike]

So, the overheating error you get might be caused by that U1601 error if there's a wiring and electric shortcut problem.

 

[Mike1alike]

The turbo (is it causing the problem?!) and U1601 error (is it causing the problem?!) aside, you could take a look on the ECU. It does have this same behavior like crankshaft sensor, when going bad it works ok while cold, then stops working ok when it gets heated. The possible issue with ECU in this case is the voltage it sends to the coil packs. Bad coil packs (short cutting) can damage the ECU, they "toast" the transistors responsible with regulating the voltage. If that's the case, checking with the diagnosis doesn't really help, as the ECU doesn't physically measures the output voltage at the end of the line. But you can do that manually. A multimeter won't be of help, as the voltage oscillates a lot. But a control lamp is a great help.
I'm not sure how your engine is configurated, I'm guessing it has 4 coil packs, one on top of each sparkplug. You have to test the electric wires connected to the coil packs. Each one has the (+) and the (-) lines. I think the oscillation of voltage (tension being output there at precise time it is needed) is made through the (-) line. The (+) line has constantly 12 V. Connecting a control lamp there shows if ECU is ok or not. If it is ok, the brighter 12 V light will light up and flicker constantly. If ECU is not ok, you'll have there either no light, either a dimmer light, like 6 V or so that will also flicker.
Another possible test on that line, but less accurate is to somehow quickly cool down the ECU when the problem occurs and then see if the engine starts with the cold ECU.

 

[bsks]

Have you checked if power is going to the fuel pump under the rear seats when the car won't start?

 

[Mike1alike]

I have to add, testing the ECU with the control lamp works while the engine is running. In your case, kind of hard to do it. But you can capture it on video, testing all the lines while somebody cranks up the engine.
And also, I remembered you can measure the ECU using a multimeter, too. You can check the continuity between those (+) and (-) lines on the same cable. It should be around 0.600 or so. You mesure it first when the engine is cold and would definitely start if you'd try to. The contact should be turn off for this measurement. You take notes of the values and then measure again when engine doesn't want to start. If the values are not about the same, it means that definitely ECU is "toasted".

 

[Mike1alike]

Have you checked if power is going to the fuel pump under the rear seats when the car won't start?

I think he did and anyway, if fuel pump wouldn't work, it wouldn't fix itself while cooling down. But... the problem could come from there if there is dirt in the fuel tank that would clogg the pump while in use and reduce the fuel flow rate. In that case there is voltage and you can hear the fuel pump working, but you'll have to check if there is enough pressure coming to the injectors.

 

[RalphM]

If you haven't tried this try drivin with the fuel cap loose or next time it stops try loosening
the fuel cap.

 

[Mike1alike]

Also, when the engine stops, what happens if when you're trying to start it you also press the gas pedal? Is it the same or does it start? If it starts it means it's a fuel pump/injectors issue.

 

[Sylvester22]

It was a cut brown wire above transmission

I'll have a look, I assume the gear cover needs to be removed at least.

quickly cool down the ECU ... and then see if the engine starts with the cold ECU.

Cheers for the detailed info, I'm not great when it comes to car electrics, but I've checked ECU, it stays cold, connections all look good, earthing points are clean and solid too. If all fails I'll find someone next week to help with this reoccurring issue.

Have you checked if power is going to the fuel pump under the rear seats when the car won't start?

The pump starts fine usually, sometimes needs to turn the key twice, but when it stalls on warm engine, that doesn't help.
When it stalls it doesn't struggle at all, just out of blue, cuts out, sometimes without a beep.
Today it didn't want to prime at all, but I'd drained the battery in last few days, so I'll check again after charging it. Cheers

If you haven't tried this try drivin with the fuel cap loose or next time it stops try loosening
the fuel cap.

The fuel cap didn't lock properly, found out later, I thought that's issue and replaced it, but didn't help much.

Also, when the engine stops, what happens if when you're trying to start it you also press the gas pedal? Is it the same or does it start? If it starts it means it's a fuel pump/injectors issue.

No it does start, regardless position of gaspedal. When it's cooled down, start like a new car.

The Bravo has a chip tuning, originally 120hp, now around 150hp apparently.
I've been notified by a forum member, the MES shows double the normal turbo pressure.
Desires Boost pressure shows around 490, the actual Boost Pressure is over 1000.

How normal is that?
MES shows these high values slightly fluctuating, even without engine running.

Today I've changed the Turbo Solenoid, MES had flagged 1 code about Turbo Wastegate, hopefully it was due the old Solenoid, and Camshaft sensor, so after the battery is charged, I'll check if they've fixed any issue.

Cheers

 

[Mike1alike]

I've been notified by a forum member, the MES shows double the normal turbo pressure.
Desires Boost pressure shows around 490, the actual Boost Pressure is over 1000.

I've noticed that, too. I don't know how good or bad that is, I've also noticed you earlier mentioning the chip tuning, that changes things.
Normal pressure for standard turbo is between 400 - 1000 mbar.
What was the engine RPM when that data was recorded, do you remember? Was is on idle? If it was, the pressure is high. "Turbo actuator command" 5% also indicates the pressure being too high, as in reality it is about the max (~1000 mbar), 100%. So how come the actuator is only 5%?

 

[Sylvester22]

"Turbo actuator command" 5% also indicates the pressure being too high, as in reality it is about the max (~1000 mbar), 100%. So how come the actuator is only 5%?

The car was idling when I took that picture.
Not sure how the chip tuning has affected anything.

That's interesting, the issue things like that don't get flagged up unfortunately, so even on engine idle, it'd be 100% ? It may have something to do with the Bypass valve, it used to have "P0039 Bypass valve performance" fault code, it's a new one now, I'll test it tomorrow and see how the values change. Cheers