Technical KriTip's 1.2 16V Sei Project

[randomizered]

I'd also have love to done the 1.4 with aftermarket ECU but cost and availability are an issue.

I paid £350 for my engine, and mk1 manifold and ECU but to be honest I think I got a raw deal. I was meant to be getting a low milage Punto engine, but they said the Bravo was the only one with the cam sensor, so I took that. Looking around though, the bravo versions are a LOT cheaper Should have held off abd researched a bit more.

The price your quoted seems a bit high, I'd haggle a bit more, but it depends on condition, miles, and extras tbh.

I see two easy choices to make, keep the 1.1 ECu and map it (it requires no modifications and will just mate with the 16v engine) OR move over to aftermarket ECU.

Using the 1.2 ECU will be a pain. If its a new ECU, its not too bad, as it will mate with your code box and keys and work ok, but then it needs dealer setup for TPS etc.

If you get a used 1.2 ECU, it will be paired with the code box/keys/locks of the donor car, so you need to swap it all over. Of course the locks won't fit, so you need to cut the chips out the donor keys and fit them into your keys, also fit the donor code box, and possibly split the looms together as I'm not sure if the internal loom mates directly with the 1.2 ecu.

Third option is to get a used 1.2 ECU and get www.codeman.co.uk to make it a virgin ECU again, to pair with your current keys and code box. but that costs as well.

At the end of the day though, after a few choice mods like exhausts, induction etc, you'll be looking at a remap for best performance anyway!

Therefore the only logical choices I see are use existing ecu, OR aftermarket ECU, thats my plan for later but a few hundred on a RR will be cheaper for now


There is an extra issue here though, the cinq ECU is not as advanced as the latest Sei ones. I have cam sensor and knock sensor. You can prob do without cam sensor, but knock sensor will give you more power as the ECU can detect detonation. Running a 1.2 16V without knock sensor may not be a wise move.

Therefore you may be better taking the two routes mentioed above, RATHER than my route which is most convinient for me.


hope that all helps

Kristian

 

[randomizered]

Well, I forgot to update that I found my engine code I posted a similar response in the bravo forum but thought it best to update here as well.

Left of the engine from the front, beneath the exhaust manifold, on the iron block, just above the water pump outlet is a little ledge. On there is the ID number and the engine code.

Mine is rusty, and I just managed to make out the version 188A500.

This is also the engine code for the Haynes newest Punto manual which is a little confusing lol.

Now I can order the HG set, cam belt etc. though which is great.

I also need to order a new clutch kit.

Shop4parts says the Bravo 1.2 16V is £70.

http://www.clutch-specialists.co.uk/ offer a Sport clutch kit for £65 or a standard kit for £38.

However the Punto ones are a different price so i guess other parts differ! I'll still presume I have a bravo engine and get the bravo kit....fingers crossed

What would people recommend though...sports or normal? I guess there's a harder / more friction material and that's it?


Other than that, I'm still awaiting my ribe set, as payment hasn't cleared yet for PP, but hopefully by the weekend it will arrive.



FAO: JR and davethetrike (dave?)

if/when you took the cylinder head extension off, did you follow the haynes manual to retain the lifters or was it not needed? Seems like a lot of tool fabrication or expensive tools. Last thing I want is to drop them all out, but maybe you had a better system for removing it?



I promise more pictures soon people, hopefully of the internal condition. I plan to take the cylinder head extension, cylinder head, sump, valves/valve seals out, at a minimum.

Only downside is im now totally broke lol, but i guess a credit card will see me through to running....may have to get an angel tuning instead of a RR though, for now at least.


Kristian

 

[richcinq]

If you have a Bravo(80)engine not a mk1 Punto sporting engine(85)you will need the Punto manifold as the Bravo engine uses a Bosch ecu and the inlet manifold is different(The intabe bore is smaller and all the sensors are too). I took a complete inlet system off a Punto and put it onto my Bravo engine and it works fine. With repect to the clutch as far as I can see everthing else on the engine is the same(not 100% but looks the same)so should be ok with Punto or Bravo clutch.

Rich.

 

[randomizered]

Cheers

I have the bravo engine but i have the punto mk1 inlet and tb so all should be good. Seems to mate up ok anyway, and have the SS exhaust anyway (still to trial fit)

The lower bore may partly explain the lower BHP as well, along with the manifold in the downpipe.

If the clutch stuff is the same, the bravo is cheaper, so will go for that lol. Just hope all this stuff mates with the SEi box once i do the swap

Kristian

 

[richcinq]

Yeah Im sure it will cos I have fitted a cinq box to a 16v and it worked. As long as its a 1108 sei box not a 900.

 

[randomizered]

Uprated clutch ordered, clutch alignment tool ordered, HG set, cam belt and bolts ordered.

Most should be here tomorrow fingers crossed.

I think my Sei thermostat will fit as well (<500 miles done on it) and I'll try my Sei water pump as well (<500 miles).

Looking at http://www.sa-motorsports.com/diyport.aspx I may have a bash a basic porting, I can't afford to have it done, and should hopefully improve performance a little

Kristian

 

[T.E.D. Jordan]

5. Polishing the Chambers
You want to put the near-mirror finish on the combustion chamber walls for two reasons: 1) As a deterrent to carbon build-up; and 2) to eliminate any sharp edges that can cause pre-ignition

Dont do that bit then, it desnt want to be near mirror finish, you want anything other than that practically, you want something that isnt going to make the fuel going in turn into droplets, you want a fine mist, something abrasive will help keep the fuel as a spray anfd in turn aid combustion efficiency. TYou also want to promote laminar flow into the chamber, knife edgeing shared inlets helps but radiused edges elsewhere, and staying consistant with inlets is crucial. If you want a DIY guide, Guy Crofts site has some handy hints thrown in here and there.

Jordan

 

[fingers99]

Dont do that bit then, it desnt want to be near mirror finish, you want anything other than that practically, you want something that isnt going to make the fuel going in turn into droplets........//etc//
Jordan

I think you're reading it wrong: he's not talking about the ports here which -- to avoid fuel drop out -- need to be a plain old smooth finish (say, the kind of effect you get from 400 - 600 grit wet or dry), but the combustion chambers themselves. The most important thing is to avoid sharp edges and get the volumes the same, but a finish much like that on a forged piston (pretty much a mirror finish when new) will help a little.

 

[randomizered]

Today was productive.

I took the sump back to metal and treated the rust patches, and then hammerited it black, two layers.

I took the pump out, cylinder head extension and cylinder head, cleaned up the block, thermostat off, drained oil, support brackers, etc.

The cleaning of the block took a while with drills and multiple brushes, but looks good now and is awaiting a cost of paint

The pistons are OK, bit of rust in there and on the valves steams and seats, but, the valve will be out, and I may regrind them.

Tomorrow, the sump will be off, just to inspect the bottom end and reseal with new sealant.

I'm not taking the sump extension off as I have no sump gasket for that part, and its not detailed in the Haynes at all.

The ability to rotate the engine is a godsend for working. To remove the cylinder head extension, instead of fabrication the special tool to keep the lifters in, I simply undid the bolts, flip the engine upside down, and removed it :slayer:

That's it for now. Only a quick update! Will detail more on Sunday probably. Also I have a new fancy camera but don't know how to work it, so most shots to date are blurred lol.

Anyway, now for the money shots!











Cheers,

Kristian

 

[randomizered]

Just another little update. Here's a pic of the block painted, along with the sump:



Looking rather tidy now Just need to either paint the alu sump extension, or polish it up, OR not bother, nobody will see it anyway! May just whack some of the silver over it and see if it sticks.

Both sides are painted, not sure wether to do the ends or not? They seem far less prone to corrosion.

Used hammerite metal paint for both colours. I did have black VHT engine spray, but Guy Croft says this stuff works fine, and a brush is far easier

Over the week I should have a few hours access, so I can reseal the sump, and probably start putting the head(s) back on, depends how long the valves take

Cheers,

Kristian

 

[The younger modder]

Looking good progress thanks for advice on the prices im leaving that one now as mounts ripped so somethings damaged

i personally would go for the sports clutch as on minis etc at least they do last longer although usualy not as nice to use

temporarily taking it off topic in reply to yourself i have a 95 mk1 early cinq sporting which off course is the uncoded ecu spi model which in some ways has its advantage but in this case leaves me at a disadvantage due to having to double up the injector wires which i dont think you will have to

on the subjefct of budget id like to know how its going as basically im dearly hoping that my mk1 will be mot and taxed on the road for £250 which will be a straight standard car, i have a top budget of £1000 for this car as after all it is only gonna be a weekend toy what do you reckon is gonna be my chance of getting it all done including the above £250 for £1k all in on road going on your current budgeting?

also while on the subject we know the gearbox fits the engine (Rich confirmed that) and that the engine fits the mounts with slight mods (again rich) but does the wiring loom fit the engine apart from the injectors?

also cooling pipes etc are they the same? both radiator and heater connections?

also on the subject of your ecu how tunable is it? would it really be capable of running an engine nearly twice the power even with the skils of angel? also have you got a quote from them? i really arent keen on standalone management myself as the cost will send me straight over budget:bang: which the defies half the point for myself and further delays your project

wayne

 

[randomizered]

I went for sports clutch, will be here in a day or two.

I can't say for a cinq, but on the Sei, all cooling looks the same, all the loom connections look the same, I may have to extend one or two, but that's it.

My ECU is OBD or whatever compliant, which I think makes a big difference when mapping, not sure yours could be done as easily. I will ring angel today or tomo and as them about whether they can do mine.

Your budget sounds feasible. I have gone for extras I don't need, so will prob come close to 1k in total, but if i kept some of the older parts etc I reckon you could do it on your budget. Not sure about insurance costs yet though

//EDIT

Just spoke to Angel Tuning and when I said I was using the 1.1 ECU, he laughed at me and said he wouldn't touch it. Only way he's do anything is if I ran the donor cars ECU, but then there wouldn't be a direct need to have it mapped right away.

I could try Chipped UK like JR used, but some people don't seem to like them, I think they have a bit of a bad reputation?

I will try some other companies around, and hopefully figure something out, otherwise I'm up s**t creek with regards to getting it runnign and ££ lol.. my only other options being, get a 1.2 ECU and mapped by angel, or seperate aftermarket and then get it RR.. argh


Kristian

 

[fingers99]

my only other options being, get a 1.2 ECU and mapped by angel, or seperate aftermarket and then get it RR.. argh

You missed one: Megasquirt.

 

[StoneNewt]

Just spoke to Angel Tuning and when I said I was using the 1.1 ECU, he laughed at me and said he wouldn't touch it.

This sounds more than a little familiar, basically AT have a number of 'good' maps that they use and beyond that don't want the hassle of sorting things out. At the end of the day you want to find a nice local RR that will do what ever you ask & are clued up on mapping.

 

[randomizered]

You missed one: Megasquirt.

Although its a kit, I'd still class it as after market TBH, although I love these kind of things, if I was too make it myself, It'd take a while, I wouldn't feel right buying a pre-made module. Also the cost of RR time/setup vs cost of ECU could swing me either way.

I have heard stories of longer time on the RR outweighing any cost benefit of the Megasquirt, so IF I take this route, I'll do a lot more research and wegh up the pros and cons.


@StoneNewt, that is what I suspected, but I was hoping as a cost effective stop gap. Also finding a local RR place seems very difficult! I have searched the Yellow pages and Yell.com, as well as googled, and can find diddly squat.

Kristian

 

[fingers99]

How local do you want? Nuneaton is sort of Rugby ish, isn't it?

There's (no recommendations, and by no means an extensive list):

Northampton Motorsport Limited TEL: 01604-766624

Silverstone Dyno Centre: 01327 855995

Noble Motorsport Ltd, Chesterfield: 01246 272 749

Aldon Automotive: Brierley Hill

Midland Fiat: Dudley

All within a hop stutter and gulp of you.

 

[davethetrike]

Hey dude,

Sorry thats me - yeah its Dave - trying to be cool.

I have a 16v b9 engine ecu, key, sender, and loom in the garage - so you have a paddle if you need it?

Ummmm, oh yeah

Admire the effort in cleaning up the engine - 'mazing man!

 

[randomizered]

Cheers finger99, tell me your secrets of searching then Maybe I was looking under the wrong terms!? They are all hittable distance and will be getting phone calls tomorrow I expect.

Cheers Dave, I'll keep it in mind if it comes to that


Spent a good few hours on it tonight. I bagged up and labled all the lifters. Took out both cams and the cam seal (man thats a pig of a job). I started to polish off all the crap in/on/around the valves as well. Its all looking rather clean and tidy, and there appears to be no corrosion or wear anywhere

Sadly the spring compressor I was going to use doesn't fit, It is rather old so may only be ok for OHV? So theres more money on tools i'm going to have to spend

Coming along well altogether though. A few more nights like that and I'll be re-assembling

Kristian

 

[The younger modder]

I went for sports clutch, will be here in a day or two.

I can't say for a cinq, but on the Sei, all cooling looks the same, all the loom connections look the same, I may have to extend one or two, but that's it.

My ECU is OBD or whatever compliant, which I think makes a big difference when mapping, not sure yours could be done as easily. I will ring angel today or tomo and as them about whether they can do mine.

Your budget sounds feasible. I have gone for extras I don't need, so will prob come close to 1k in total, but if i kept some of the older parts etc I reckon you could do it on your budget. Not sure about insurance costs yet though

when I said I was using the 1.1 ECU, he laughed at me and said he wouldn't touch it. Only way he's do anything is if I ran the donor cars ECU, but then there wouldn't be a direct need to have it mapped right away.

good all the cooling looks the same, on the sei abarth i looked at all cololing was same as my cinq so im in same situation as you

the budget isnt working out so reasonable i did a costing last night and it came to £1400 as i cant leave the brakes and suspension standard if i want to get anywhere quickly, assume you are or have sorted yours?

the remap verdict is what i expected i was gonna call him tommorrow as my mates just give me the number (hes getting his HDi remapped) but there is no point now

it seems your back in the same thought as me of using the 1.2 ecu but does it plug on and then need mods or does all the wiring need redoing straight away? i know the loom doesnt fit as its on the opposite side :bang:

on talking to a mates dad about this (hes built loads of cars) he told me to just start with a cheap stand alone management kit if you can get them for a reasonable price and if not use the donor ecu as either will do a better job of running the engine than the original ever could

So theres more money on tools i'm going to have to spend

you think thats bad i have just spent litterally my whole weeks wages on my new spray gun so i could get a good job on my bumpers

good luck with the progress im quite interested in how this turns out and what you decide on

wayne

 

[cc1]

Whether you use the MF59 or an after market ECU, You will have to have a full re-mapp to set the fueling and ignition timing to suit the engine its controlling. The ECU will adjust itself within perameters to set the fueling to keep it safe in closed loop mode but not wide open throttle. The ignition timing is a different case but the knock sensor will help with pre-ignition.
The MF59 seems to be one of the ECU's that is not so popular with re-mapps with regard to Seicentos.
What you need is someone who can get the perameters from the ME7.3 and write them into the program from the MF59 and uplode the data.

Any good programers out there?

I have the equipment to remap and do engine analisys that you can use if you need.