Technical Jerkiness on light throttle, esp when cold.

[PacoJones]

OK, have removed and cleaned the throttle body both above and below and as much of the intake manifold as I can get to. Pulled the MAP sensor and cleaned inside the intake where that sits, and cleaned the MAP sensor again as well.

I have also cleaned the two breather hoses again, and clamped the smaller one to the intake with a cable tie. Where the larger one attaches to the rocker cover, it has a spring clip as in the pic a couple of posts above, and at the other end, where it joins the airbox, I think it should just be a push fit, correct? I can easily put a cable tie on it if needed.

Drove the car with the larger breather pipe disconnected and all good, though could smell fumes insode the car, which I assume is to be expected.

Reattached the larger breather pipe and drove it again and all still good.

Still not convinced about the airbox to throttle body seal, I'd replace that anyway except they appear to cost 25 quid or more which seems rather steep for what it is. Is that right? Part number is 46528828 if I am not mistaken.

Unless there are more steps I can take right now, I will see what happens over the coming days and report back.

They respond well to an Italian tune up, take it for a high speed blast.

First thing I tried, the car does a lot of round town driving and not many highway miles but had to start the thread as it didn't help in this case.

 

[koalar]

71748095 1.2L doblo fits and cheaper £10

Ford KA also cheaper and fit

 

[koalar]

OK, have removed and cleaned the throttle body both above and below and as much of the intake manifold as I can get to. Pulled the MAP sensor and cleaned inside the intake where that sits, and cleaned the MAP sensor again as well.

I have also cleaned the two breather hoses again, and clamped the smaller one to the intake with a cable tie. Where the larger one attaches to the rocker cover, it has a spring clip as in the pic a couple of posts above, and at the other end, where it joins the airbox, I think it should just be a push fit, correct? I can easily put a cable tie on it if needed.

Drove the car with the larger breather pipe disconnected and all good, though could smell fumes insode the car, which I assume is to be expected.

Reattached the larger breather pipe and drove it again and all still good.

Still not convinced about the airbox to throttle body seal, I'd replace that anyway except they appear to cost 25 quid or more which seems rather steep for what it is. Is that right? Part number is 46528828 if I am not mistaken.

Unless there are more steps I can take right now, I will see what happens over the coming days and report back.


First thing I tried, the car does a lot of round town driving and not many highway miles but had to start the thread as it didn't help in this case.

Cool

At least we have confirmed the cause

 

[Shuggie]

My 2009 1.2 Dynamic suffers from this same oiling of the MAP sensor, which I can live with - a periodic cleaning of that sensor with brake cleaner seems to be a reasonable way of managing the issue and restoring jerk-free slow speed running. My car previously had an invisibly split breather hose which I replaced, and the rubber air filter sealing gasket was also changed.

The MAP sensor oiling is still annoying, though, and I suspect this is characteristic of these lusty little 60bhp engines where the oil breather setup is so primitive.

 

[The Panda Nut]

Felicity (Mk1 Panda Parade) had a wire mesh flame trap in her breather pipe which used to block up regularly because she did short journeys most of the time. I got fed up clearing it out so just left it out and never had a problem thereafter. Non of the more modern ones - Pandas or my boy's Punto - had them.

Would there be any reason its really needed? I have them on all of ours.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Would there be any reason its really needed? I have them on all of ours.

I think the theory behind flame traps in breathers is that it's conceivable that a backfire through the carb/throttle body might ignite crankcase vapours and cause the crankcase to explode or other internal damage to the engine - or maybe actually start a fire? More likely I think with a carburettor than fuel injection? I've removed them from several vehicles I've owned and never had a problem.

 

[koalar]

The way I see it, the layout of the manifold, injectors and breather is set up , it would be pointless

I don't remember seeing one after single point injection was phased out

But I could be wrong

 

[The Panda Nut]

I think the theory behind flame traps in breathers is that it's conceivable that a backfire through the carb/throttle body might ignite crankcase vapours and cause the crankcase to explode or other internal damage to the engine - or maybe actually start a fire? More likely I think with a carburettor than fuel injection? I've removed them from several vehicles I've owned and never had a problem.

I have to admit to chucking them out from variious cars over the years and also never had an issue. My dealer insisted on replacing them on Our 2014 1.2. Seems like an easy money earner for them. I just wash the hose out with petrol and refit when dry.

 

[Mike1alike]

Any thoughts? Replace the large airbox/throttle body seal at minimum, I think?

If the seal is intact, like not broken, there is no need to replace it. It does seem large, but exactly the same would be a new one. It does work though, because when engine is running there is vacuum and the seal is sucked inwards, sealing the area.

I wouldn't replace the spark plugs either, there's no need to.

The oily MAP sensor and actually oily all inside of intake manifold is usual to this engine. It happens due to that breather that carries all the oil vapors from the engine block to combustion chambers through intake manifold. An oil catch can could work, but I've never seen a functional one that would fit this engine.

As for the problem itself, I had it at my 1.2 Punto (I think it's the exact same engine like yours) and I fixed it. The specific of the problem was the same, jerking while cold and even more so on high humidity atmosphere. This specific detail makes me think that the same would be a fix for yours, too.
The fix was replacing the intake manifold gaskets.
I wrote about it at the time, here.
After that, the problem was really fixed and never had it since. The engine runs nice and smooth in all conditions, still.
I did had a broken IAC valve some time afterwards, but that manifested differently and got it fixed by replacing the IACV.

 

[DaveMcT]

My wife's 1.2 is doing this. It not the dog bone - I know what that feels like. Its more like an air leak or sparks. I'll be getting the scanner connected this week and taking a close look at the throttle body, MAP and any other bits that can leak or block up. Im not ruling out spark plugs as they've been there some time. Coils should be OK as they have less than 20K on them.

I'm not a fan of ultra long life spark plugs. When the threads seize, you are in for a world of pain and misery.

 

[PacoJones]

71748095 1.2L doblo fits and cheaper £10

I ordered this item which arrived today but it's much smaller than the one on the car. No biggy as it was only a tenner but definitely not the right one.

As for the problem itself, I had it at my 1.2 Punto (I think it's the exact same engine like yours) and I fixed it. The specific of the problem was the same, jerking while cold and even more so on high humidity atmosphere. This specific detail makes me think that the same would be a fix for yours, too.
The fix was replacing the intake manifold gaskets.

Thanks for that info, that's very helpful!

My wife's 1.2 is doing this. It not the dog bone - I know what that feels like. Its more like an air leak or sparks. I'll be getting the scanner connected this week and taking a close look at the throttle body, MAP and any other bits that can leak or block up.

Please add a quick update if you learn anything from the scan. I also don't think it's the dog bone (if that's the same as what they call a pitch stop mount on Subarus), it seems to be an air/fuelling/ignition issue.

 

[koalar]

Sorry about that

I don't understand why it doesn't fit

I thought all all the 1.1 and 1.2 are the same

Except the 4x4 and dualogic

Does the one they sent have a 55 mm inside diameter


It been fitted to a 2004 dynamic 1.2 as well as the the latter 500s susesfully

 

[PacoJones]

Does the one they sent have a 55 mm inside diameter

The ID of the new one on the side that should connect to the airbox is 47mm, whereas the old one is 55mm. I got it here: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/364042500948, the part number looks right.

New one at the top:

 

[koalar]

The part number you ordered shows

55mm on another advert

Something isn't right

But it looks like you been sent the wrong part

I can't check too thoroughly at the moment as I am out and about

 

[PacoJones]

The part number you ordered shows

Could you tell me where you got the screenshot with the measurements from? I'll contact Robust and send them the link and ask them why their item doesn't have the same measurements despite having the same part number.

Thanks.

 

[koalar]

Air Filter Seal Gasket Fiat Panda - Punto - 500 for 71748095 | eBay

Linea Verde is a point of reference for private customers and workshops for the purchase of spare parts for Italian, foreign, vintage and off-road cars. We have been working for years to ensure the good condition of your vehicles. Our goal has always been the satisfaction of our customers, who...

www.ebay.co.uk

 

[PacoJones]

Air Filter Seal Gasket Fiat Panda - Punto - 500 for 71748095 | eBay

Linea Verde is a point of reference for private customers and workshops for the purchase of spare parts for Italian, foreign, vintage and off-road cars. We have been working for years to ensure the good condition of your vehicles. Our goal has always been the satisfaction of our customers, who...

www.ebay.co.uk

Thanks for that, Robust say sorry, they don't think they have the right size item, so have offered a refund.

If you know anyone else selling them in the correct size at a similar price, please let me know.

 

[koalar]

There appears to be a shortage

Just been on tomo eBay shop no stock
Not the cheapest but fairly reliable

Autodoc have 4 different brands all out of stock

Item number 323272367109 on eBay looks right you could message them first of the internal diameter

 

[PacoJones]

Item number 323272367109 on eBay looks right you could message them first of the internal diameter

Thanks, have messaged them.

 

[DaveMcT]

The seal between airbox and throttle body is important to keep dirt out. But a leak should not affect the engine air/fuel mixture. However, an air leak between the throttle plate** and the engine will affect air/fuel mixture. Air leaks here cause hiccups at low revs especially when cold. However faulty plugs, leads and external coils are also worse when it's cold.

** The flapper that moves when you press the throttle pedal.