Technical I'm somewhat disappointed!

[Greyskull]

The easy way to answer that is the price difference. It's too much.

For the record people, I'm told that the difference between a new and recon box is about £600.

Service manager wants to rip a gearbox out of a new car in the showroom and fit it in mine - Gotta like his style if nothin' else . . .

Question: How do you clear a Fiat service dept in 30 seconds?
Answer: Ask greyskull to drive onto the forecourt - then watch everyone scurry away muttering "OMG, it's him again!"

One thing's for certain though, they sure won't forget me!!! Pound to a penny says that when this is resolved, they're always gonna look after me and my car when I come in. . .

Somewhere else in another thread on the forum another member was asking for the Fiat MD's email addy. Well I emailed him and it didn't bounce back so, either the address used was correct or someone else got that email, though I can't beleive there is more than one Andrew Humberstone. Won't post the email addy here but PM me if you want it . .

 

[Rich westhorpe]

You have given them enough time now,throw the keys on the dealers desk and ask for a refund.....You have just spent the best part of £10,000/£11,000 and they are trying to put a major secondhand part in the car.......absolutely shocking. Hold your head in shame Fiat.

 

[T14086]

second hand one

secondhand part in the car.......absolutely shocking

how did we get from reconditioned to second hand

A reconditioned part is built by trained people (in most cases) and know the item inside out, often uprated parts are used. A secondhand part is brought at scrapyard or ebay with no guarantee on the item, theres a big difference there.

 

[Murano16v]

Well if something is not new it follows that it must be second hand. In this case the gearbox used did not turn out to be as good as new or better despite being assembled by fully trained experts.

 

[D4nny8oy]

The easy way to answer that is the price difference. It's too much.

The labour involved in taking back a gearbox, stripping it down and replacing everything is more than the cost of a production gearbox.

There is no way they change everything, it wouldn't be cost effective. The reason the casing has to be servicable is exactly this reason, to swap everything over to a new casing cost too much, so it's cheaper to get a new one.

What do you think is the cheaper option- unbolting the casing and chucking all the internals into a bin (to be melted down and reused in future manufacturing) and quickly pressing on new gears, synchro's, bearings, etc, or stripping it down and thoroughly inspecting every last component for microscopic damage?

I'd expect even the lowest-ranking Fiat Tech to be able to strip and replace all the gear components in an hour, so a fully trained Fiat factory worker with all the correct tools to hand should bang it out in no time at all.

Don't think of it as a secondhand 'box, see it as a greener, more environmentally-friendly alternative to completely casting a whole new unit. Think of the Polar bears.

 

[jrkitching]

Perhaps because what D4nny8oy has personally experienced is not a guarantee that the same is universally repeated across different dealers and over different periods of time?

I wish I could have expressed this as well myself - it certainly wasn't my intention to question D4nny8oy's integrity or the valued contribution he makes to this forum.

In this case the gearbox used did not turn out to be as good as new or better despite being assembled by fully trained experts.

The fact that the reconditioned gearbox was itself unfit for purpose is actually one of the more worrying aspects of this sad tale.

 

[Murano16v]

What do you think is the cheaper option- unbolting the casing and chucking all the internals into a bin (to be melted down and reused in future manufacturing) and quickly pressing on new gears, synchro's, bearings, etc, or stripping it down and thoroughly inspecting every last component for microscopic damage?

I'd expect even the lowest-ranking Fiat Tech to be able to strip and replace all the gear components in an hour, so a fully trained Fiat factory worker with all the correct tools to hand should bang it out in no time at all.
:

I'd not be that confident. I had washer jets that kept going out of alignment on a new Punto. So the Fiat Tech ( not sure what rank ) superglued them in position, and from that day on the were fine for cleaning the bonnet, but the windscreen never got a look in. God knows what fun he would have had with a gearbox.

 

[T14086]

So the Fiat Tech ( not sure what rank ) superglued them in position, and from that day on the were fine for cleaning the bonnet, but the windscreen never got a look in.

Simple mod to cure this.

 

[phil0254]

have been reading this thread with interest...so just thought i'd add a small bit ..

as danny boy says they reuse the casing ,hence a damaged casing usually results in you loosing any surcharge ,layshaft , mainshaft ,and gears may be reused ,as long as they pass stringent test ,all bearings ,synchros ,bulk rings etc are renewed ..and the box is as good as a brand new box ,only difference is they usually paint then a sickly colour .unfortunately ,i think 1 problem people have is the use of the word re-con ..a recon is usually just a repair to what has failed and a coat of paint ..what manufacturers use is a remanufactured itwm wether it be engine ,gearbox...and it is tested to the exact same standards as the original.plus point of a remanufactured item is the stress are gone from the casing etc ...though i can't dispute the fitting of a brand new box .to a brand new car ..just thought i'd add my small bit ...i don't work for fiat ,though for my sins i work for a truck manufacturer and spend a lot of time repairing their boxes ..and if a new one fails and can't be repaired .then a re manufactured item is fitted with the same warranty as the original item ...it's a common accepted practice in the trade as the item is as good as a new one ,,it's not a scam / con etc ...

i await any abuse lol

 

[Rich westhorpe]

how did we get from reconditioned to second hand
Correct me if i am wrong but a reconditioned gearbox has been used before,on another car or at least some of the componets have ...The clue is the word reconditioned .So it is either a brand new gearbox or a part second hand one, and if it were my brand new car i would find this unacceptable. Not trying to offend any one but this is a forum and this is my oppinion.

 

[sixpotman]

Perhaps the garage just replaced the damaged items in
the original gearbox and that's why the replacement wines.

John

 

[jrkitching]

have been reading this thread with interest...so just thought i'd add a small bit ..

as danny boy says they reuse the casing ,hence a damaged casing usually results in you loosing any surcharge ,layshaft , mainshaft ,and gears may be reused ,as long as they pass stringent test ,all bearings ,synchros ,bulk rings etc are renewed ..and the box is as good as a brand new box ,only difference is they usually paint then a sickly colour .unfortunately ,i think 1 problem people have is the use of the word re-con ..a recon is usually just a repair to what has failed and a coat of paint ..what manufacturers use is a remanufactured itwm wether it be engine ,gearbox...and it is tested to the exact same standards as the original.plus point of a remanufactured item is the stress are gone from the casing etc ...though i can't dispute the fitting of a brand new box .to a brand new car ..just thought i'd add my small bit ...i don't work for fiat ,though for my sins i work for a truck manufacturer and spend a lot of time repairing their boxes ..and if a new one fails and can't be repaired .then a re manufactured item is fitted with the same warranty as the original item ...it's a common accepted practice in the trade as the item is as good as a new one ,,it's not a scam / con etc ...

i await any abuse lol

No abuse needed - I'd broadly concur with your description of the remanufacturing process. In my opinion, though, a remanufactured item is only almost as good as a new one - some key components in the powertrain will have been reused, and although they may appear and test as undamaged, who is to say they haven't spent their previous life in a high mileage trackday car?

Warranty replacement of a gearbox with a remanufactured unit may be acceptable in a car that's, say, 18 months old. In a car that's only covered 34 miles from new, I'd say replacing a new major component with a remanufactured one costing £600 less is perilously close to my definition of a scam.

 

[T14086]

Correct me if i am wrong but a reconditioned gearbox has been used before,on another car or at least some of the componets have ...The clue is the word reconditioned .So it is either a brand new gearbox or a part second hand one, and if it were my brand new car i would find this unacceptable. Not trying to offend any one but this is a forum and this is my oppinion.

read back through the thread especially Danny's post on recon boxes.

 

[grimwau]

I think that the stigma of having a reconditioned box is a byproduct of the "Exchange & Mart" experience.

To a car manufacturer the cheapest way of reconditioning a gearbox is to do exactly as stated by D4nny8oy, to an aftermarket reconditioner the exact opposite applies, it is cheaper to use secondhand parts. It is down to the beancounters at the end of the day but luckily in this scenario it actually works out better for the customer (present company excepted).

The only exception to this rule as far as I can see is if the actual model of car is so new that there will not be any "old" casings yet available and until a supply has been created then a brand new box would be the only solution.

P.S. When I say that a manufacturers recon box is as good as a new one I obviously am not including the "Gold Seal" ones that I used to fit many moons ago, they were definitely an exception to the rule lol.

 

[Rich westhorpe]

Warranty replacement of a gearbox with a remanufactured unit may be acceptable in a car that's, say, 18 months old. In a car that's only covered 34 miles from new, I'd say replacing a new major component with a remanufactured one costing £600 less is perilously close to my definition of a scam.[/QUOTE]


Well said that man.

 

[306maxi]

I think that the stigma of having a reconditioned box is a byproduct of the "Exchange & Mart" experience.

To a car manufacturer the cheapest way of reconditioning a gearbox is to do exactly as stated by D4nny8oy, to an aftermarket reconditioner the exact opposite applies, it is cheaper to use secondhand parts. It is down to the beancounters at the end of the day but luckily in this scenario it actually works out better for the customer (present company excepted).

The only exception to this rule as far as I can see is if the actual model of car is so new that there will not be any "old" casings yet available and until a supply has been created then a brand new box would be the only solution.

P.S. When I say that a manufacturers recon box is as good as a new one I obviously am not including the "Gold Seal" ones that I used to fit many moons ago, they were definitely an exception to the rule lol.

I think T, D4nny and yourself are right on the money.

 

[Murano16v]

Simple mod to cure this.

No, they were the eye ball type, so no simple mod. You were discussing the ease with which a tech ( they used to be known as mechanics) could strip and rebuild a gearbox. I was pointing out a techcs inability to do a simple job on my windscreen washers. What exactly did the trained tech think when he tested washers which were now super glued and permanently directed at the bonnet " oh that'll do at least there's water coming out". Then you get the "all done for you sir" from the receptionist. Then you bring it back.
The OP should get a properly fitted new gearbox at the least with none of the scratches to the paintwork that mechanics always leave behind or a new car.

 

[T14086]

No, they were the eye ball type, so no simple mod.

dont know what your talking about

You were discussing the ease with which a tech ( they used to be known as mechanics) could strip and rebuild a gearbox.

was I ?

 

[Murano16v]

was I ?[/quote]
You're right, sorry was nothing to do with you.

 

[poggy]

What do you think is the cheaper option- unbolting the casing and chucking all the internals into a bin (to be melted down and reused in future manufacturing) and quickly pressing on new gears, synchro's, bearings, etc, or stripping it down and thoroughly inspecting every last component for microscopic damage?

I'd expect even the lowest-ranking Fiat Tech to be able to strip and replace all the gear components in an hour, so a fully trained Fiat factory worker with all the correct tools to hand should bang it out in no time at all.

Don't think of it as a secondhand 'box, see it as a greener, more environmentally-friendly alternative to completely casting a whole new unit. Think of the Polar bears.

It's not that quick as you also need to change the bearing liners in the casing. The difference of £600 is way more than the casing cost, hence the fact they do re-use parts to make saving.

Nothing wrong with that but it's not all new I can assure you.