Technical How old is this timing belt?

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Technical How old is this timing belt?

Yup, compare the two, they look quite different. The one with the cover fixed to the front of it identifies it as a VVT pulley.

I've mentioned earlier about how I tend to be a pessimist - always thinking the worst. So the first time I did one with the VVT pulley my brain went into pessimist overdrive the night before and I went to sleep worrying about it and woke up worrying about it. Why? Well I knew that VVT pulleys allow the cam itself to advance and retard relative to the pulley so I wondered how to obtain a correct timing with the pulley able to turn through a number of degrees relative to the cam. In the event though I needn't have worried as the pulley is spring loaded towards the retarded position so behaves just like a solid pulley when not being influenced by the oil pressure. So you don't even have to do anything different with it when doing the belt. It is possible for the pulley to fail - it contains moving parts inside - so, after removing the old belt I always give them a good tug and wiggle. You shouldn't be able to either rotate it relative to the cam or feel play in it. If you can then a new pulley is needed.
I'd imagine when I'm doing this job something else will fail, that's fairly normal it seems, so i'll be sure to check the pulley. I'll be doing the water pump and tensioner to prevent them becoming what else is going to fail.

I'm not driving the EVO very much at the moment perhaps a hundred miles a month so the timing belt on that can wait till I've got this one out of the way. Its preferable doing the non VVT belt first because it'll be forgiving when something goes wrong. I don't view my expectation that things will go wrong as pessimism, its more like an acknowledgement of the inevitable lol.
:)
 
That feels like a loaded question lol. So the answer is i've read what they do on the internet and have a theoretical understanding - but an in action understanding i don't have.
Being as how we know the VVT engines to be interference type for sure and reading some of Anthony's enthusiastic but maybe naive posts, I think he'd be wise to have someone with experience beside him if he's going to try a belt change himself? No offence meant Anthony, just worried for you.
 
Being as how we know the VVT engines to be interference type for sure and reading some of Anthony's enthusiastic but maybe naive posts, I think he'd be wise to have someone with experience beside him if he's going to try a belt change himself? No offence meant Anthony, just worried for you.
I have a degree in Physics and published patents. I put on a somewhat stupid act because it amuses me, and to encourage responses so I can learn faster ;)

My day job is a Maths and Physics tutor for GCSE and A Level. As a tutor I know its much better to have someone tell me what to do than go and work it out myself, but I won't be employing someone to teach me cars - i've decided to teach myself. So anyway there's really nothing to worry about here and my naive posts are just some fun. :)
 
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I have a degree in Physics and published patents. I put on a somewhat stupid act because it amuses me, and to encourage responses so I can learn faster ;)

My day job is a Maths and Physics tutor for GCSE and A Level. As a tutor I know its much better to have someone tell me what to do than go and work it out myself, but I won't be employing someone to teach me cars - i've decided to teach myself. So anyway there's really nothing to worry about here and my naive posts are just some fun. :)
Oh you devil you! But seriously, if you're going to have a go at this then take the plugs out so there's no resistance to turning the crankshaft, just makes it easier. Then, when you're completely finished and ready to start it up for the first time, before putting the plugs back in, take a suitable spanner or socket and use it to turn the crankshaft SLOWLY through two complete revolutions - it can be more if you want but no less. This will take the engine through one complete operational cycle on all four cylinders so if you've got it wrong and a valve is going to come into contact with a piston then it'll stop the crankshaft turning as the two come into contact. It's important you turn it quite slowly because if you turn it fast the weight (kinetic energy) in the flywheel will be enough to bend the valve before it stops. (with the plugs removed you won't have to "fight" against the compression so it's much easier to turn the crankshaft but, more importantly, easier to feel if a piston and valve have a coming together.)

If you don't do this and you have got the timing wrong then you won't know and the starter motor spins the engine so fast you've no chance of stopping in time.
 
Oh you devil you! But seriously, if you're going to have a go at this then take the plugs out so there's no resistance to turning the crankshaft, just makes it easier. Then, when you're completely finished and ready to start it up for the first time, before putting the plugs back in, take a suitable spanner or socket and use it to turn the crankshaft SLOWLY through two complete revolutions - it can be more if you want but no less. This will take the engine through one complete operational cycle on all four cylinders so if you've got it wrong and a valve is going to come into contact with a piston then it'll stop the crankshaft turning as the two come into contact. It's important you turn it quite slowly because if you turn it fast the weight (kinetic energy) in the flywheel will be enough to bend the valve before it stops. (with the plugs removed you won't have to "fight" against the compression so it's much easier to turn the crankshaft but, more importantly, easier to feel if a piston and valve have a coming together.)

If you don't do this and you have got the timing wrong then you won't know and the starter motor spins the engine so fast you've no chance of stopping in time.
Your post does summarise why I post here. I've watched youtube vids and not a one has given the reason I need to do two complete revolutions, without the reason you've just given me I'd have been much more likely to think its not important. So thanks for offering the fail safe and a proper reason to do it!
 
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Your post does summarise why I post here. I've watched youtube vids and not a one has given the reason I need to do two complete revolutions, without the reason you've just given me I'd have been much more likely to think its not important. So thanks for offering the fail safe and a proper reason to do it!
Aye, two complete revs of the crankshaft because a 4 stroke engine's crankshaft goes round two times for every one revolution of the camshaft - crank pulley is half the diameter of the cam pulley - so two revs of crankshaft rotates the camshaft once thus operating all the valves. Simples!
 
Aye, two complete revs of the crankshaft because a 4 stroke engine's crankshaft goes round two times for every one revolution of the camshaft - crank pulley is half the diameter of the cam pulley - so two revs of crankshaft rotates the camshaft once thus operating all the valves. Simples!
I'm sure there is some physics in that Antony 😂 big wheel on the cam shaft little wheel on the crank.

Seriously though. I am no mechanic and the full extent of my mechanical training was matching my dad swearing and throwing tool when trying to do jobs, I did do a GCSE in automotive studies. which showed me how to set tappets and points using feeler gauges (both of which were pretty much obsolete even back in the 90s when I did it)

And what I have learned and taught myself.

One thing I have become a massive advocate of is making sure you have the right tools. there is nothing worse then trying to fumble through a job you don't have the right tools for.

@Pugglt Auld Jock do the later engines still use the little pins like I had to use in my car when setting the timing, that position all the pistons at the center point in their travel? I wonder if they moved away from this on later engines. essentially with the VVT if you are locking the back end of the cam shafts and the crank then the timing is guaranteed however if you have the VVT pulley you do need to know that the pulley is in the right position before installing the belt, so if it resets when there is no oil pressure this should be is that is needed with no additional tools. ?
 
I'm sure there is some physics in that Antony 😂 big wheel on the cam shaft little wheel on the crank.

I'm really really not joking - this is what I was teaching today...nothing about revolutions in here lol. I suppose if I ask for someone to explain VVT they will, but I can get the gist of it.

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Seriously though. I am no mechanic and the full extent of my mechanical training was matching my dad swearing and throwing tool when trying to do jobs, I did do a GCSE in automotive studies. which showed me how to set tappets and points using feeler gauges (both of which were pretty much obsolete even back in the 90s when I did it)

And what I have learned and taught myself.

Your videos on Youtube and posts on here would say to me you're a highly proficient mechanic, and I have no doubt you're more competent than many mechanics i've paid in the past.

One thing I have become a massive advocate of is making sure you have the right tools. there is nothing worse then trying to fumble through a job you don't have the right tools for.

I can remember in the not too distant past you made me realise I was using the wrong tools and the right ones worked immediately, so with you on this one.
 
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One thing I have become a massive advocate of is making sure you have the right tools. there is nothing worse then trying to fumble through a job you don't have the right tools for.
Oh yes, and buy the best quality you can afford.
@Pugglt Auld Jock do the later engines still use the little pins like I had to use in my car when setting the timing, that position all the pistons at the center point in their travel? I wonder if they moved away from this on later engines. essentially with the VVT if you are locking the back end of the cam shafts and the crank then the timing is guaranteed however if you have the VVT pulley you do need to know that the pulley is in the right position before installing the belt, so if it resets when there is no oil pressure this should be is that is needed with no additional tools. ?
Are you talking about the pins that go in the plug holes? If so I think it's the 16 valve engines that do it that way, and you'll need the two screw in locking tools for the cams. here's a kit: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/40502042...bK51dNSSwEp43Ug2VwMV5wq+8=|tkp:Bk9SR_LsgZX_Yw
The 8 valve engines use this kit: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/40495776...ZiJXUawm8KWPmJa7sxJE+cS/I=|tkp:Bk9SR_DsgZX_Yw
Regarding the VVT pulley. I worried a lot about what I was taking on when I did my boy's 1,4 VVT Punto for exactly the reason you state above.However, in the event I found the pulley obviously returns to the retarded stop and, for purposes of changing the belt, you treat it exactly like a solid pulley. No "special measures" required, just lock the cam with the tool on the back end of the cam and lock the crank with the dumbell tool. By the way, the dumbell tool seems to lock the crankshaft so that all the pistons are at "half mast" (all pistons half way up/down - depending on how you look at it?) whereas the early engines - talking our old 1992 Pand here - which had timing marks on the crank and cam pulleys, lined no1 and 4 at \TDC and 2 and 3 at BDC when the crankshaft marks were lined up (or so I seem to remember) So I think you could use the "dumbell" tool on a 16 valve to line the crankshaft up? You'd still need something to lock the cams though but maybe you could do that with drills? I don't know, I've never done one of the 16 valve engines. Then there's the hydraulic cam follower versions which I've no experience of either.
 
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I don’t think the 16v has the locating groves in the back end of the cam, for that locking tool, you lock the cam shafts front and back event though they are meshed and you couldn’t move them out of time without removing at least one of them.

Yep I meant the dowel pins that screw into the plug holes. It seems while you don’t use them on the 8v you still set the timing in much the same way.
 
I'm really really not joking - this is what I was teaching today...nothing about revolutions in here lol. I suppose if I ask for someone to explain VVT they will, but I can get the gist of it.

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This gave me a sudden flash back to my college days. I think it was when I was doing my City and Guilds Motor Vehicle Technicians? Anyway, the question went something along the lines of: A car is traveling along a road which has a surface coefficient of friction between the tyres and road surface of (whatever) and is about to negotiate a bend of (XYZ radius) given the road is flat and level, how fast can the car go before it looses adhesion. I may not have correctly stated the question and I do remember very clearly that I couldn't answer the question, which I thought was very "silly" when for months I'd been concentrating on service tasks in the workshop. Still got "Distinction" on my papers though so I must have got the rest right!
 
This gave me a sudden flash back to my college days. I think it was when I was doing my City and Guilds Motor Vehicle Technicians? Anyway, the question went something along the lines of: A car is traveling along a road which has a surface coefficient of friction between the tyres and road surface of (whatever) and is about to negotiate a bend of (XYZ radius) given the road is flat and level, how fast can the car go before it looses adhesion. I may not have correctly stated the question and I do remember very clearly that I couldn't answer the question, which I thought was very "silly" when for months I'd been concentrating on service tasks in the workshop. Still got "Distinction" on my papers though so I must have got the rest right!
LOL, well done on the distinction. The question sounds too complicated for school level!

I'm gently trying to encourage my son to do a car mechanic course at college, but he's not interested. He's sat nearby playing the guitar, I hope he doesn't do music!

I'm watching the VVT discussion above with interest and have put the locking tools you linked into my eBay basket to save for later.



Edit, well I can see this set of tools isn't any good for 1.2L 8V, will have another look.
 
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I'm watching the VVT discussion above with interest and have put the locking tools you linked into my eBay basket to save for later.



Edit, well I can see this set of tools isn't any good for 1.2L 8V, will have another look.
Go back to page 2 of this thread and you'll see, about half way down the page, the kit I bought. It did our 1.2 8valve Panda and my boy's 1.4 8valve Punto so I'd be amazed if it couldn't do your 1.2 8valve Punto.
 
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The 2 revolution thing is a check, probably not on any official guide. Must be by hand as even using the starter will wreck the valves.

Camshaft question wasn't loaded, more so as we know what level of knowledge we are dealing with. Not meant in a condescending way.
 
The 2 revolution thing is a check, probably not on any official guide. Must be by hand as even using the starter will wreck the valves.

This is very handy info that I'm sure to use.

Camshaft question wasn't loaded, more so as we know what level of knowledge we are dealing with. Not meant in a condescending way.

No worries, I replied like I did in the hope that someone would explain it to me. It may have been preferable for me to ask directly rather than joking around. Repairs are a serious business for the professionals on here.
 
Ok, because I cant see it above.

Basics, valves open and shut to let the fuel and air in, and exhaust gases out. Has to be timed so the piston pulls in the air, and later pushes the exhaust gases out.

More performance means you want the valves open more (time and travel), and also higher compression (small the combustion chamber is).

Older engines are lower performance, and the valves generally dont open far enough to touch the pistons. Higher performance engines do have that risk, and it's a no brainer as the valves are very fragile compared to a piston and will get broken on contact.

More advanced engines by varying the valve timing or duration. There's a whole area of tuning to do with optimising the gas flow, the timing can be tuned to the revs and accelerator (air flow).

Simpler engines have a fix cam timing, locked to the crank timing.

VVT is Variable Valve Timing, ie it changes the cam timing depending on engine speed and load. Different makes have different methods of changing the timing. The funny large mass in the pulley allows the camshaft to change it's phase or angle to the pulley.

The fiat system is clearly dodgy as they took away the timing marks, meaning they think it needs manually set each time. Personally I cant see why they cant have conventional timing marks to line up.
 
Ok, because I cant see it above.

Basics, valves open and shut to let the fuel and air in, and exhaust gases out. Has to be timed so the piston pulls in the air, and later pushes the exhaust gases out.

More performance means you want the valves open more (time and travel), and also higher compression (small the combustion chamber is).

Older engines are lower performance, and the valves generally dont open far enough to touch the pistons. Higher performance engines do have that risk, and it's a no brainer as the valves are very fragile compared to a piston and will get broken on contact.

More advanced engines by varying the valve timing or duration. There's a whole area of tuning to do with optimising the gas flow, the timing can be tuned to the revs and accelerator (air flow).

Simpler engines have a fix cam timing, locked to the crank timing.

VVT is Variable Valve Timing, ie it changes the cam timing depending on engine speed and load. Different makes have different methods of changing the timing. The funny large mass in the pulley allows the camshaft to change it's phase or angle to the pulley.

The fiat system is clearly dodgy as they took away the timing marks, meaning they think it needs manually set each time. Personally I cant see why they cant have conventional timing marks to line up.
I get that, thanks. One last question - is the extra mass in the pulley just mass, electronics or something else?

I have found a timing belt tool set for the non vvt 1.2 L 8v for £11. Won't do the 1.4 but I can get that later.

All good :)
 
Ok, because I cant see it above.

Basics, valves open and shut to let the fuel and air in, and exhaust gases out. Has to be timed so the piston pulls in the air, and later pushes the exhaust gases out.

More performance means you want the valves open more (time and travel), and also higher compression (small the combustion chamber is).

Older engines are lower performance, and the valves generally dont open far enough to touch the pistons. Higher performance engines do have that risk, and it's a no brainer as the valves are very fragile compared to a piston and will get broken on contact.

More advanced engines by varying the valve timing or duration. There's a whole area of tuning to do with optimising the gas flow, the timing can be tuned to the revs and accelerator (air flow).

Simpler engines have a fix cam timing, locked to the crank timing.

VVT is Variable Valve Timing, ie it changes the cam timing depending on engine speed and load. Different makes have different methods of changing the timing. The funny large mass in the pulley allows the camshaft to change it's phase or angle to the pulley.

The fiat system is clearly dodgy as they took away the timing marks, meaning they think it needs manually set each time. Personally I cant see why they cant have conventional timing marks to line up.
Oh my, you're a brave man to try taking this subject on in such a small space! Well done.

I'm not brave enough to even try but it's interesting, perhaps? to consider that the more fuel/air mixture you can get into the combustion chamber the bigger the "bang" is going to be when it's ignited. Lots of things conspire to limit this, the design of the inlet manifold and porting. How restrictive the valve is to airflow (the longer you can keep it open and the further it opens is better, which is what camshaft design and VVT attempts to improve) but perhaps one of the biggest problems is that, even with a perfect design, where the piston going down in the cylinder would create a "perfect" vacuum - which in the real world it can never do - the maximum "pressure" acting to push the air through the inlet and into the cylinder is atmospheric pressure ( generally accepted as 14.7 lbs/sq in at sea level). It's useful to think of this "problem" in this way because no matter how "hard" the piston tries to "suck" the air into the cylinder you can't get more than a 14.7 lbs/sq in pressure differential between the outside of the engine and inside the cylinder which must, no matter what you try to do by way of camshaft and inlet design, be the final limiting factor. This is one, although not the only, reason why turbo charging has become so popular. Stick a turbo, or a less popular supercharger, on the end of the inlet and immediately you can increase the pressure of the air being fed to the engine and, everything else being equal, you'll end up with a lot more air in the combustion chamber so you can "squirt" more fuel in (because with more air you can burn more fuel) and therefor you get a much bigger bang and more power! Of course in practice, it's not that simple but the general principle of cramming more air in is easy to understand.

The manufacturers have taken advantage of this to be able to fit smaller engines to their cars thus getting better economy when driven gently but, with the turbo, still giving the vehicle a decent ability to pick up it's heels and go when needed. The down side is that if you use the performance most of the time you'll get pretty poor fuel consumption. Change up early and use small throttle openings and you can get surprisingly good figures - have you noticed how most of these vehicles have a "recommended gear" indicator on the instrument cluster which seems to be always encouraging you to change up to a higher gear? Seems to me to be the manufacturers trying to negate the "fuel guzzling" propensity of these engines?

I do think it's a little unfair of you to classify the FIAT system as being "dodgy" when most modern engines don't now have timing marks and unkeyed pulleys. My wee EA211 engined Ibiza, and now my new Skoda, have unkeyed pulleys on both cam and crankshafts. My guess would be that they are obsessed with having valve timing absolutely spot on - much as would be with a racing engine - to get best possible power and fuel consumption. Older engine's fuel and ignition systems were less exact so unable to benefit from such exacting valve and ignition timing to say nothing of modern direct injection fuel delivery. However, whether the wee F.I.R.E. engine with it's relatively simple port injection and, even with VVT, quite basic valve actuation, is highly debatable. I've done belts on them using the recommended tools and loosening of the cam bolt (only did it once this way) and by the "tippex" method (with the qualifier that I always check valve timing, using the tools, on an engine I don't have previous knowledge of) and I can't detect any difference in how they drive afterwards.
 
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