Fiat 500e with an engine?! Yes please.

[JTD_Liam]

FCAs chronic underinvestment in pretty much everything, basically left them in a situation where they had no money to develop new cars and no models that people wanted to keep on buying.

This is what lead to the need to merge, it was merge or go bust.

Fiat didn't bring much to the table following the merger other than a catalog of brand names with potential and worldwide recognition, but cars and technology wise the coffers were empty.

Agreed. FCA had the brands and North American market, and to be fair to them are more successful at the top end of the market than PSA, but where hardware & core models are concerned PSA were much more sorted.

I love Fiat & Alfa but the pace of new model releases was painfully slow and the age of platforms under the majority of models was very old, so although PSA have diluted the FCA brands a bit, at least there's a constant stream of new models on modern platforms. I also think merging with PSA who they already had a commercial vehicle relationship with is better than some of the alternatives.

 

[SB1500]

https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/fiat-could-add-gasoline-version-500e

I wouldn't doubt Fiat's ability to find a way to engineer in a petrol engine to it... Whether or not Stellantis would approve it I'm not sure, but then, Fiat's side of the company isn't so insignificant that they can't use their weight to justify decisions either.

Agreed. FCA had the brands and North American market, and to be fair to them are more successful at the top end of the market than PSA, but where hardware & core models are concerned PSA were much more sorted.

In Europe, yes PSA had more widespread appeal across its various crossover re-hashes and made some of the best diesel engines in cars. Petrol engines, I would say Fiat would out-engineer them any day of the week... but in reality that would mean high-volume selling cars to put the engines in which Fiat has definitely failed at outside of the old 500 and Panda.

I admire Fiat's effort in trying to make a comeback to the USA... at least we got some funny advertisements out of it. But we can't really blame Fiat for America's preference for trucks and large cars. Remember, even VAG cars struggle in the US and are looked at as 'expensive' and 'hard to fix', but it's more a criticism of the differences in their domestic cars versus imported ones. I don't think for a second anything PSA did in the last 20 years would have sold in the US and I think that's why they didn't bother after the 90s.

Fiat saw a unique opportunity with the failure of Chrysler / Jeep etc and used that as a way to grow globally. I don't think Fiat's to blame for Chryslers history of lacklustre, poor quality cars that even the Americans themselves didn't really buy or think much of. Fiat's fault for buying it, but in the grand scheme of things now with Stellantis it might actually be able to build a couple of 'world' cars capable of being a hit.

Unlike 2009, Americans (just like us) are feeling the unwarranted pressure of governments and activists trying to force them into electrification, particularly in their cities, so some sort of silly crossover model might just catch on... even if it's only because of the lack of decent hatchbacks, saloons and coupes rolling off the production lines. Even 'premium' car makers are taking away long time favourites and strong sellers... --> https://www.autoblog.com/2024/07/11...s-audi-a5-s5-and-rs5-two-doors-axed-for-2025/

Hell is freezing over. An engine'd 500e could be another result of the frost... If you've changed the cabin filter on a modern Panda and looked at the way they handled the pedal positions... or even the right hand drive modifications of most of the modern Fiat's, you'll see they're very good at throwing last minute workarounds to make things function a lot..

 

[JTD_Liam]

It does feel like the ex FCA part of the business is dancing to Peugeot's tune, which frustrates me, but the reason for this is likely because much of the useable hardware like platforms are PSA, such was the level of underinvestment or foresight by FCA in their platforms in recent years - they're either old or weren't designed for EV & ICE combined. So they've gone with PSA platforms and therefore gone with PSA engines too.

I'd much rather see a Fiat petrol engine in the 500 Ibrida as I agree, their petrol engines are far better than PSAs (diesel is a close run thing but PSA have been better at diesel for longer, Fiat only really got better with the JTD era). However because they're already using PSAs Puretech 1.2 in so many other models & are having to completely reconfigure the 500e platform, it makes sense to make it accommodate the Puretech rather than an FCA engine. That's before we get into the realms of what FCA engine they could realistically use - they're either too big (1.5 FireFly Hybrid) not Hybrid (1.0 FireFly Turbo from Tipo/500x) or not powerful enough (1.0 Mild Hybrid from the old 500 & Panda). The 1.3 FireFly might've fitted but it's only previously been ICE only or used as a PHEV (Jeep Renegade & Compass and Alfa Tonale), which wouldn't make sense for the 500 either.

 

[SB1500]

It does feel like the ex FCA part of the business is dancing to Peugeot's tune, which frustrates me, but the reason for this is likely because much of the useable hardware like platforms are PSA, such was the level of underinvestment or foresight by FCA in their platforms in recent years - they're either old or weren't designed for EV & ICE combined. So they've gone with PSA platforms and therefore gone with PSA engines too.

I'd much rather see a Fiat petrol engine in the 500 Ibrida as I agree, their petrol engines are far better than PSAs (diesel is a close run thing but PSA have been better at diesel for longer, Fiat only really got better with the JTD era). However because they're already using PSAs Puretech 1.2 in so many other models & are having to completely reconfigure the 500e platform, it makes sense to make it accommodate the Puretech rather than an FCA engine. That's before we get into the realms of what FCA engine they could realistically use - they're either too big (1.5 FireFly Hybrid) not Hybrid (1.0 FireFly Turbo from Tipo/500x) or not powerful enough (1.0 Mild Hybrid from the old 500 & Panda). The 1.3 FireFly might've fitted but it's only previously been ICE only or used as a PHEV (Jeep Renegade & Compass and Alfa Tonale), which wouldn't make sense for the 500 either.

This is spot on. Now I know it's not quite the same... but if they could build the modern 124 Spider on a Mazda platform but make major adjustments and put a Fiat engine in it, why can't they do it now? I suspect the whole requirement for BEV and ICE on the same chassis. But still disappointing. If it wasn't for that, we still could have had an Italian styled, Italian powered and Italian handling Fiat inside of a basic 208 chassis.. :-(

 

[AndyRKett]

It does feel like the ex FCA part of the business is dancing to Peugeot's tune, which frustrates me, but the reason for this is likely because much of the useable hardware like platforms are PSA, such was the level of underinvestment or foresight by FCA in their platforms in recent years - they're either old or weren't designed for EV & ICE combined. So they've gone with PSA platforms and therefore gone with PSA engines too.

I'd much rather see a Fiat petrol engine in the 500 Ibrida as I agree, their petrol engines are far better than PSAs (diesel is a close run thing but PSA have been better at diesel for longer, Fiat only really got better with the JTD era). However because they're already using PSAs Puretech 1.2 in so many other models & are having to completely reconfigure the 500e platform, it makes sense to make it accommodate the Puretech rather than an FCA engine. That's before we get into the realms of what FCA engine they could realistically use - they're either too big (1.5 FireFly Hybrid) not Hybrid (1.0 FireFly Turbo from Tipo/500x) or not powerful enough (1.0 Mild Hybrid from the old 500 & Panda). The 1.3 FireFly might've fitted but it's only previously been ICE only or used as a PHEV (Jeep Renegade & Compass and Alfa Tonale), which wouldn't make sense for the 500 either.

I think a big part of the merger has been cost cutting by shutting down things that are not needed. In this case fiat sort of lost their way with engines when they stopped production of the fire and super fire, the puretech is a much more modern engine and looking at it internally could have been cheaper and easier to produce than the more recent fiat offerings?

Fiat while a very big company with a lot of sales was also a money pit with nothing new to offer so I can see over the next few years a period of them finding their style once more without having to spend money on new engines, the puretech will probably last the next 10 years needed to see out the combustion engine at which point it will all be motors and batteries

When it does change to motors the fact that no one cares a jot about what motor is fitted to an ev probably should tell you all their is to know, a motor is very simple usually only 1 moving part, no oil, no exhaust, no turbos or complicated fuel and vapour management systems. Electric cars will use off the shelf parts and we may go back to a time when style and looks becomes the main selling point. Fiat have a history of making some quite clever cars so let’s hope this frees them up to be more creative once more.

I can also see potential for new car companies appearing as you don’t need to have your own engine to make a new car and can just buy motors and batteries in from 3rd party suppliers

 

[StevenRB45]

I think main reason for the death of the FCA gear is support and supply chain.

Next month my car is going in for a service, at an Alfa/DS dealer rather than Citroën because it's closer.

Of course I'm paying the price you would pay for a Citroën service and let's face it the Diagnostic gear you use on a DS is the same as it will be on a Citroën. It will also be the same on the new Alfas...and Vauxhalls and Peugeots etc etc.

Engine wise if you're using one engine...you only need to carry spares for one engine which can be centralised if all the cars are on a common architecture with common electrics well training your techs got a lot easier all of sudden.

Also your clout with suppliers because the size of orders you're putting in are on a scale pretty much no one else can match.

That and they had just spent lots of money getting puretech euro 7 compliant and there was no reason to spend that money again on internal competitors.

 

[RFollia]

The electric vehicle factories are almost empty. 100% electric vehicle sales are not precisely strong and many manufacturers are incurring in high losses. And the decision to kill the "old" 500 has not been received with enthusiasm by italian drivers and consumers.
Looks like some platform adaptation is looming in the horizon, see Alfa Mito as plug in hybrid.
Best regards

 

[varesecrazy]

Is the Mito still produced..?

It's a VERY old platform
@2006 GM/Fiat

 

[icheatatscrabble]

Is the Mito still produced..?

It's a VERY old platform
@2006 GM/Fiat

He's probably talking about the new Alfa Junior - which was supposed to be a full electric car like the Fiat 600, as you probably know, both are available petrol/hybrid too.

 

[StevenRB45]

This popped up.

Amidst the doom..it suggests that the 500 ibrida/Torino will use an engine made in Italy but given the mention of stopping production of the firefly and fire and other things said about the car this will likely be a puretech.

Stellantis: the Italian plant that produces Fiat FIRE/FireFly engines will be idle for several months - ItalPassion

The soap opera continues for the Stellantis plant in Termoli, Italy, which until recently produced FIRE and Firefly (GSE) combustion engines. After

www.italpassion.fr

So moving some engine production for Stellantis at large into Italy? Currently they are all made in France if memory serves.