Fiat 500e with an engine?! Yes please.

[SB1500]

I think it's a great idea. Fiat have done a really good job of the 500e but it seems such a shame that the majority of 500 buyers are stuck with the old tech & (having got a 2023 Hybrid in the family) very tired feeling 2007 500.

The Hybrid system they do have isn't reported to be very good either, really a box checking exercise and likely going to lead to a little more complex problems down the line than we've ever really had from any engine in a 500 or Panda (including the TwinAir, which to be honest, isn't ageing nearly as badly as we might have feared, and is really making a mockery of it's blue oval counterpart EcoBoost which was kind of the same idea). But people seem to be buying them still, and they've just renewed the current Panda until 2030 at least is it? The Italians won't give up a good thing easily.

At the time Fiat were right to do what they did with the 500e, but there's a variety of reasons why a lot of current 500 (Hybrid) drivers wouldn't switch to the 500e, including price, range and in our case no reasonable prospect of installing a fast charger at home. Fiat have just cut the price by £3000, whilst maintaining the additional £3000 e-Grant, meaning they are now one of the cheapest EVs available & in the ballpark of the upcoming Grande Panda EV, but the other problems remain and unfortunately for the 500e, it's a car bought by nearly all private buyers, not fleet or business where the bulk of EV sales are, so I think putting an engine in will realise the full potential of a great car, at a time when the current Hybrid model doesn't have time on its side.

100%, regardless of size segment or market position, they've taken what has been a £12k car for the longest time (and considered 'premium' since most of its city car competition, also for the longest time were £7-10k) and replaced it with a £30k car, and frankly the people I knew to drive 500's when they 'upgraded' went for A3's or Mini's when they made the financial step up to spend that much. A 500 is a hard sell at that price and as you say, mostly private since it's hard to justify such a non-practical body style car which is more style over practicality. I've seen quite a few 'poster cars' for bakeries, make up salons and charity events in the form of vinyl wrapped advertisement 500's that business owners or folks would drive about in to promote their business, but never a fleet or road-job-person's car. I've mostly seen Skoda's and Corolla's used for this with my own eyes as fleet cars but they're bland and able to be marked down to probably deliver the best price and minimal servicing hassle, and take the maximum abuse thrown at them

It could be pretty bleak if Stellantis doesn't choose to use any of the 500e platform for any other group models - but the 500e probably will be dragged on as long as Fiat are known to do with other cars which can only be good for owners.

Still, remember it can be much worse. Look at Fisker - them going bankrupt and not being able to support already sold, poorly functional cars on the road so soon is probably the worst ownership experience you can have fallen into as of modern history. At least many of the other rising EV makers are singing contracts with the established car makers / splitting showrooms and really hedging each others risks to hopefully avoid those owners being left with lawn ornaments when the fad fades away, or solely EV companies become unsustainable to run. At least owners of those cars will have a reputable, reliable brand to maintain a parts catalogue and some form of support for at least the usual lifespan on their cars. Fiat 500e owners will have this too I'd imagine.

Porsche Tyycan owners have it bad enough... apparently the dealers won't buy them back in because they can't shift them either. With Fiat, as mentioned, the price of the 500e has already dropped so much that if the original buyer trades it in after 1 or 3 years, it'll then be so much more accessible to buyers (probably like me) who only have half of 30k to spend and depending on their appetite to 'move into the future' and drive an EV, along with a small radius of places to go to each week, might just take the plunge and buy it.

I'm disappointed that we aren't seeing that modular, slide in slide out battery system from the Centoventi - but practically and safety speaking, that probably was going to need a company the size of Stellantis to get behind from day one and with their already established EV pathway and platforms already on the road.. which Fiat are more likely to adopt, I think that will only ever be a pipe dream. Sounded cool to me... charge up, get to Belfast or Dublin, stop by a Fiat dealer along the way, swap out a cell or two for maybe less than a tank of petrol would have been, get going. But that was already un-realistic to presume that any interaction, with any dealership, could be easy and hassle free...

 

[AndyRKett]

I was wondering if they're able to make money on them at the new price, as they're produced in Italy, on their own bespoke platform and use parts that don't appear to be shared across Stellantis,

Fiat lied about that one. It’s the old platform recycled form the grande Punto/corsa/adam/500x/tipo/500L…. You get the idea, Basically the old GM platform, not a new or bespoke platform at all really, just they made the motor and battery to fit that platform.

Which was a really stupid idea as the platform is now 20years old and really at the end of its life.

 

[StevenRB45]

Fiat lied about that one. It’s the old platform recycled form the grande Punto/corsa/adam/500x/tipo/500L…. You get the idea, Basically the old GM platform, not a new or bespoke platform at all really, just they made the motor and battery to fit that platform.

Which was a really stupid idea as the platform is now 20years old and really at the end of its life.

I don't think they entirely did I think they butchered it to the level converting it back to ice is not easy.

Looking at the battery pack that goes under it etc it's had new floors and they weren't designed with ice in mind.

This is probably why it's taking them 2 years to put a petrol engine into it. If it was just smash it into to an existing drive tunnel it wouldn't take that long.

 

[The Panda Nut]

That article isn’t accurate as the new 500e is built on a brand new production line that cost 700 million euros and a further 50 million euros for the paint shop. The 500e runs on a complete ground-up new platform that has nothing in common with any other Fiat or Stellantis group products. I think it would be a massive mistake to take the car backwards by putting a combustion engine in it, the new Panda can fulfill that remit. On the question of cost I just purchased a pre-reg 500e Action model on a 73 plate with 3 miles on the clock for £12995…..less than half list so if you look you don’t need a combustion version for affordable motoring……range is another thing but this is a second car.

As you clearly demonstrate thats what people could be persuaded to pay out for one. And be happy. £40grand. No kinchance whatsoever. £13K I would seriously consider.

 

[StevenRB45]

Piston 500 makes sense in one context, Italy.

Fiats biggest market, but the market with barely any EV take up. Recently the 500 was still up in their best seller lists, the forced death of it will cost them a good chunk of Italian market share.

They managed to modernise the old Panda onto a Stellantis electrical system to keep it alive but perhaps given they were making 2 unrelated cars they saw an opportunity to make 1 in the same factory and build what demand dictated as other Stellantis factories do.

Of course they are still in going to be selling the old 500...but outside of the EU.

 

[JTD_Liam]

The Hybrid system they do have isn't reported to be very good either, really a box checking exercise and likely going to lead to a little more complex problems down the line than we've ever really had from any engine in a 500 or Panda (including the TwinAir, which to be honest, isn't ageing nearly as badly as we might have feared, and is really making a mockery of it's blue oval counterpart EcoBoost which was kind of the same idea). But people seem to be buying them still, and they've just renewed the current Panda until 2030 at least is it? The Italians won't give up a good thing easily.


100%, regardless of size segment or market position, they've taken what has been a £12k car for the longest time (and considered 'premium' since most of its city car competition, also for the longest time were £7-10k) and replaced it with a £30k car, and frankly the people I knew to drive 500's when they 'upgraded' went for A3's or Mini's when they made the financial step up to spend that much. A 500 is a hard sell at that price and as you say, mostly private since it's hard to justify such a non-practical body style car which is more style over practicality. I've seen quite a few 'poster cars' for bakeries, make up salons and charity events in the form of vinyl wrapped advertisement 500's that business owners or folks would drive about in to promote their business, but never a fleet or road-job-person's car. I've mostly seen Skoda's and Corolla's used for this with my own eyes as fleet cars but they're bland and able to be marked down to probably deliver the best price and minimal servicing hassle, and take the maximum abuse thrown at them

It could be pretty bleak if Stellantis doesn't choose to use any of the 500e platform for any other group models - but the 500e probably will be dragged on as long as Fiat are known to do with other cars which can only be good for owners.

Still, remember it can be much worse. Look at Fisker - them going bankrupt and not being able to support already sold, poorly functional cars on the road so soon is probably the worst ownership experience you can have fallen into as of modern history. At least many of the other rising EV makers are singing contracts with the established car makers / splitting showrooms and really hedging each others risks to hopefully avoid those owners being left with lawn ornaments when the fad fades away, or solely EV companies become unsustainable to run. At least owners of those cars will have a reputable, reliable brand to maintain a parts catalogue and some form of support for at least the usual lifespan on their cars. Fiat 500e owners will have this too I'd imagine.

Porsche Tyycan owners have it bad enough... apparently the dealers won't buy them back in because they can't shift them either. With Fiat, as mentioned, the price of the 500e has already dropped so much that if the original buyer trades it in after 1 or 3 years, it'll then be so much more accessible to buyers (probably like me) who only have half of 30k to spend and depending on their appetite to 'move into the future' and drive an EV, along with a small radius of places to go to each week, might just take the plunge and buy it.

I'm disappointed that we aren't seeing that modular, slide in slide out battery system from the Centoventi - but practically and safety speaking, that probably was going to need a company the size of Stellantis to get behind from day one and with their already established EV pathway and platforms already on the road.. which Fiat are more likely to adopt, I think that will only ever be a pipe dream. Sounded cool to me... charge up, get to Belfast or Dublin, stop by a Fiat dealer along the way, swap out a cell or two for maybe less than a tank of petrol would have been, get going. But that was already un-realistic to presume that any interaction, with any dealership, could be easy and hassle free...

The Hybrid system is the absolute mildest of offerings and it's almost impossible to know if it adds anything in reality. The engine is responsive & smooth at lower speeds - smoother than the TwinAir that we owned from 2012 to 2015 (but much slower) and smoother and more responsive than the 1.2 had become with all the updates for emissions etc. The trouble with it is the lack of power makes it really unenjoyable on faster roads. I've driven older 1.2 Pandas & 500s on the motorway and they ranged from fun (2009 Panda) to adequate (2015 500) but the 1.0 Hybrid is painful, so it's definitely not a car to buy if you do more than a handful of motorway journeys a year. It's more economical than either the TwinAir or 1.2 though, so they achieved their brief in that regard, but I'd take the hit on economy for the TwinAir, no question.

My main issue with our 2023 500c isn't the engine though, as we have other vehicles for longer journeys. It's that the 500 really feels it's age elsewhere now. It might be worse on the Convertible but on rough roads the whole car shudders shakes when you hit a bump & on some roads it's not resolved itself before you hit the next bump, which makes for a miserable drive I find. The styling is still great inside & out but Stellantis penny pinching on the seats (now plain black rather than the colours FCA offered) & removing of neat touches like 500c badges on the dash & door pillars mean it doesn't feel as special as it did either.

We bought the 500c following a 2020 500x, as we had fond memories of the 2012 500 TwinAir hatchback, but I wish we'd found a way to install a home charger and got a second hand 500e for less money instead. The TwinAir was a much more enjoyable experience & the reliability concerns are largely unfounded, unlike as you say, the likes of Ford EcoBoost engines which are an absolute disaster.

 

[JTD_Liam]

Fiat lied about that one. It’s the old platform recycled form the grande Punto/corsa/adam/500x/tipo/500L…. You get the idea, Basically the old GM platform, not a new or bespoke platform at all really, just they made the motor and battery to fit that platform.

Which was a really stupid idea as the platform is now 20years old and really at the end of its life.

It's never been confirmed to my knowledge what the 500e platform originates from, but as @StevenRB45 mentioned, they must've severely altered it for the 500e because of how long it's now going to take for it to accommodate an ICE power train.

If it is that platform then I agree with you, it's really stupid given the age of the thing, but unlike most cars on that platform the 500e is praised for it's dynamics, so I'm really unsure if it is the old Fiat/GM SCCS platform or not.

 

[StevenRB45]

The Hybrid system is the absolute mildest of offerings and it's almost impossible to know if it adds anything in reality. The engine is responsive & smooth at lower speeds - smoother than the TwinAir that we owned from 2012 to 2015 (but much slower) and smoother and more responsive than the 1.2 had become with all the updates for emissions etc. The trouble with it is the lack of power makes it really unenjoyable on faster roads. I've driven older 1.2 Pandas & 500s on the motorway and they ranged from fun (2009 Panda) to adequate (2015 500) but the 1.0 Hybrid is painful, so it's definitely not a car to buy if you do more than a handful of motorway journeys a year. It's more economical than either the TwinAir or 1.2 though, so they achieved their brief in that regard, but I'd take the hit on economy for the TwinAir, no question.

My main issue with our 2023 500c isn't the engine though, as we have other vehicles for longer journeys. It's that the 500 really feels it's age elsewhere now. It might be worse on the Convertible but on rough roads the whole car shudders shakes when you hit a bump & on some roads it's not resolved itself before you hit the next bump, which makes for a miserable drive I find. The styling is still great inside & out but Stellantis penny pinching on the seats (now plain black rather than the colours FCA offered) & removing of neat touches like 500c badges on the dash & door pillars mean it doesn't feel as special as it did either.

We bought the 500c following a 2020 500x, as we had fond memories of the 2012 500 TwinAir hatchback, but I wish we'd found a way to install a home charger and got a second hand 500e for less money instead. The TwinAir was a much more enjoyable experience & the reliability concerns are largely unfounded, unlike as you say, the likes of Ford EcoBoost engines which are an absolute disaster.

Part of the delay in this they are retooling it to fit a puretech hybrid (no one shoot the messenger here...).

Actually this means it'll be the new timing chain version with a variable vane turbo and capable of passing euro 7. Hopefully this is also the most fixed version of the Puretech available.

It's also means it's a lot less mild hybrid being capable of low speed movement on electric motor alone. Although it's not been confirmed what they are fitting the options are either a 100bhp engine and a 20bhp electric motor or 130bhp engine and 30bhp motor and a dual clutch auto.

 

[AndyRKett]

It's never been confirmed to my knowledge what the 500e platform originates from, but as @StevenRB45 mentioned, they must've severely altered it for the 500e because of how long it's now going to take for it to accommodate an ICE power train.

If it is that platform then I agree with you, it's really stupid given the age of the thing, but unlike most cars on that platform the 500e is praised for it's dynamics, so I'm really unsure if it is the old Fiat/GM SCCS platform or not.

Probably one thing to consider is the platform was used mainly for the likes of the Punto and 500l with changes being made for the 500x

The majority of the engines used in that platform were old fiat engines, so it was likely never made to accommodate the current line up of engine in such a small car. Added to that the 500e was never designed to have a fuel powered engine, they may need to re-engineer the body to accommodate a pipe for the fuel filler, fuel tank, pipes all sorts of brackets and other bits and pieces under the bonnet, then they basically have to design a car but harder than that make a “old car” fit with bits it was never designed to have.

Then they will have to retool the factory to incorporate a line for engines, oils etc it’s quite surprising how much under the skin differs.

 

[The Panda Nut]

what a b silly idea. Just buy a petrol one. Nearly assensible as a driverless car,otherwiseknown as a taxi.

 

[StevenRB45]

what a b silly idea. Just buy a petrol one. Nearly assensible as a driverless car,otherwiseknown as a taxi.

They can't sell you one because Fiat under underinvested in the electrics so much they can no longer be sold due to cyber security laws.

(Really).

They also can't do a manual petrol 500e as Fiat designed the interior in such a way there's nowhere to fit a gear linkage and knob without redoing the whole inside.

#foresight.

 

[The Panda Nut]

Why cant we please have, a small car. Electric motor range 150 miles with a tiny petrol engine capable of 50mph. It would answer my demands. Preferably a Panda. And..... No not that Range Rover sized tool! Its not a Panda.

 

[StevenRB45]

Why cant we please have, a small car. Electric motor range 150 miles with a tiny petrol engine capable of 50mph. It would answer my demands. Preferably a Panda. And..... No not that Range Rover sized tool! Its not a Panda.

Because that combination requires a large battery and an engine and a fuel tank and a gearbox so you end up with no interior space or a big car.

People do offer these things but they tend to be in mid to large Suvs where they have cabin space to burn and need to try very hard to cheat the wltp cycle.

Ironically Range Rover offers one..

Closest you will probably get will be the Jeep Avenger 4xe where I'd bet the electric 4wd system will allow a reasonable electric only range (21 miles). But to get 150 miles electric you need a battery the size of what was in the original nissan leaf and took up the whole floor.

 

[AndyRKett]

No not that Range Rover sized tool! Its not a Panda.

This new panda is under 4metres long will come with the option of petrol only, hybrid or electric drive trains it’s quite a bit smaller than your average ranger over.

More like the size of the mk2 Punto and is apparently smaller than the average size for cars in the came segment

 

[The Panda Nut]

Because that combination requires a large battery and an engine and a fuel tank and a gearbox so you end up with no interior space or a big car.

People do offer these things but they tend to be in mid to large Suvs where they have cabin space to burn and need to try very hard to cheat the wltp cycle.

Ironically Range Rover offers one..

Closest you will probably get will be the Jeep Avenger 4xe where I'd bet the electric 4wd system will allow a reasonable electric only range (21 miles). But to get 150 miles electric you need a battery the size of what was in the original nissan leaf and took up the whole floor.

I shall get a Range Rover and call it a Panda. All it needs is a different badge LOL

 

[JTD_Liam]

Part of the delay in this they are retooling it to fit a puretech hybrid (no one shoot the messenger here...).

Actually this means it'll be the new timing chain version with a variable vane turbo and capable of passing euro 7. Hopefully this is also the most fixed version of the Puretech available.

It's also means it's a lot less mild hybrid being capable of low speed movement on electric motor alone. Although it's not been confirmed what they are fitting the options are either a 100bhp engine and a 20bhp electric motor or 130bhp engine and 30bhp motor and a dual clutch auto.

As much as I'd prefer they used a Fiat engine, the engines they've used in recent years wouldn't work - the 1.0 Hybrid from the 'old' 500 & Panda is slow enough in those cars, so would be a bad idea in the new 500. The 1.0 FireFly turbo with 100bhp (as per Tipo) & 120bhp (as per 500x) isn't available as a Hybrid, so they wouldn't use that. The 1.3 FireFly turbo is used in the PHEV Jeeps & Alfa Tonale, but wouldn't be suitable in a small car like the 500, and the 1.5 Hybrid from the 500x, Tipo, Jeep Renegade & Compass and Alfa Tonale is too big, so they'll probably have to use the PSA Puretech unfortunately.

That said I had a Jeep Avenger 1.2 Puretech for a weekend and the engine is characterful & perky. It's also apparently had much of the issues around the stupid 'wet belt' cambelt resolved with a cam chain as you say, so is hopefully as reliable as a Fiat engine.

 

[JTD_Liam]

Probably one thing to consider is the platform was used mainly for the likes of the Punto and 500l with changes being made for the 500x

The majority of the engines used in that platform were old fiat engines, so it was likely never made to accommodate the current line up of engine in such a small car. Added to that the 500e was never designed to have a fuel powered engine, they may need to re-engineer the body to accommodate a pipe for the fuel filler, fuel tank, pipes all sorts of brackets and other bits and pieces under the bonnet, then they basically have to design a car but harder than that make a “old car” fit with bits it was never designed to have.

Then they will have to retool the factory to incorporate a line for engines, oils etc it’s quite surprising how much under the skin differs.

Yes you can see why no other manufacturers have retrospectively tried to shoehorn an engine into an electric car. It sounds like a nightmare. It also makes it all the more apparent why they've used the new Stellantis Smart Platform for the forthcoming Grande Panda, as it was undoubtedly easier to design that from scratch to accommodate multiple powertrains than it'll be to do all the work to the platform beneath the 500e.

It does irk that so much of what's being used in Stellantis is PSA rather than FCA, but then I suppose other than the Maserati Nettuno V6 engines & (Alfa) Giorgio platform for larger vehicles, much of what FCA had was older or less suitable to new vehicles than what PSA had, including their CMP platform & Puretech engines.

 

[StevenRB45]

As much as I'd prefer they used a Fiat engine, the engines they've used in recent years wouldn't work - the 1.0 Hybrid from the 'old' 500 & Panda is slow enough in those cars, so would be a bad idea in the new 500. The 1.0 FireFly turbo with 100bhp (as per Tipo) & 120bhp (as per 500x) isn't available as a Hybrid, so they wouldn't use that. The 1.3 FireFly turbo is used in the PHEV Jeeps & Alfa Tonale, but wouldn't be suitable in a small car like the 500, and the 1.5 Hybrid from the 500x, Tipo, Jeep Renegade & Compass and Alfa Tonale is too big, so they'll probably have to use the PSA Puretech unfortunately.

That said I had a Jeep Avenger 1.2 Puretech for a weekend and the engine is characterful & perky. It's also apparently had much of the issues around the stupid 'wet belt' cambelt resolved with a cam chain as you say, so is hopefully as reliable as a Fiat engine.

I've had the unfixed one since 2017.

It's great engine for a small car, perky and Torquey without using too much fuel. The wetbelt can be fixed...by changing it every 5 years or so.

In terms of everything else I hear they use lots of oil...mine never has which may be down it being changed regularly with the correct oil. However the warranty for both issues is now 10 years.

I suspect a lot of comes down to usage and service but hey no one ever goes on the internet to say "I've left my timing belt too long and destroyed my engine" they say "stoopid wet belt killed my engine!!!!"

So to be fair I don't fear them at all... although i'd not expect 20 trouble free years out of one either.

 

[AndyRKett]

It does irk that so much of what's being used in Stellantis is PSA rather than FCA, but then I suppose other than the Maserati Nettuno V6 engines & (Alfa) Giorgio platform for larger vehicles, much of what FCA had was older or less suitable to new vehicles than what PSA had, including their CMP platform & Puretech engines.

FCAs chronic underinvestment in pretty much everything, basically left them in a situation where they had no money to develop new cars and no models that people wanted to keep on buying.

This is what lead to the need to merge, it was merge or go bust.

Fiat didn't bring much to the table following the merger other than a catalog of brand names with potential and worldwide recognition, but cars and technology wise the coffers were empty.

 

[JTD_Liam]

I've had the unfixed one since 2017.

It's great engine for a small car, perky and Torquey without using too much fuel. The wetbelt can be fixed...by changing it every 5 years or so.

In terms of everything else I hear they use lots of oil...mine never has which may be down it being changed regularly with the correct oil. However the warranty for both issues is now 10 years.

I suspect a lot of comes down to usage and service but hey no one ever goes on the internet to say "I've left my timing belt too long and destroyed my engine" they say "stoopid wet belt killed my engine!!!!"

So to be fair I don't fear them at all... although i'd not expect 20 trouble free years out of one either.

That's good to know. We've had numerous PSA vehicles in the family and nothing since the 1987 Peugeot 309 has caused any grief. However the newer ones were all HDI diesels rather than Puretech petrol models, so I've no experience of them other than to briefly drive the Jeep Avenger, which I concluded, like you, was perky & torquey, with good character. I knew they had the welt belt issue but that it'd been much better managed than the Ford EcoBoost problems & now that they've switched to cam chain, I'm no more concerned than with any other modern chain driven engine - i.e making sure oil is changed every year/10,000 miles at the most.