General egr valve

[Suicide_Jockey]

Yes; you have demonstrated a great example of when it's a good idea to use a caveat being:

"....unless the modification is recommended by the engine manufacturer"

A good caveat, indeed.

&

Interesting, I fitted the swirl gasket on the 'wrong' side based on what Fiat techs have told me.

I fitted mine next to the stop valve and from my positive experience of zero EGR issues this may well be the best place

But .... But .... Shirley that's NOT "a modification recommended by the engine manufacturer", so Shirley that can't be "a proper repair". + +


PS ... Sorry, Argo, I couldn't resist the temptation for a spot of lighthearted monkeying around. ..... I'll get me coat.

Regards
Bobbejaan

 

[Argonought]

Bobbejaan, yeah guess you caught me out yet again (nearly died laughing reading one of your other posts yesterday)

As least Shadey is now testing Modified EGR vs Blanked off EGR.

That's some progress I guess

 

[Shadeyman]

Fiat called me back the Restrictor Plate is £17.95 and I can collect it tomorrow. Will be interesting to see the results, if any.

 

[Suicide_Jockey]

But .... But .... Shirley that's NOT "a modification recommended by the engine manufacturer", so Shirley that can't be "a proper repair". + +

&

Bobbejaan, yeah guess you caught me ...

Aww, I'm disappointed, Argo .... You never even berated me for calling you surely. [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0A5t5_O8hdA] Shirley that can't be "a proper repair" [/ame]

 

[Argonought]

Aww, I'm disappointed, Argo .... You never even berated me for calling you surely. Shirley that can't be "a proper repair"

LOL

I'm not one to normally correct anyone's spelling/grammar (even if they do make the mistake constantly) so I urged on caution - but you using 'Shirley' twice with a capital should I guess have been a give way :bang:

 

[adamcot]

The "restrictor plate" is also known as the "swirl gasket".

The swirl gasket does not restrict any gas flow. It is designed to speed up the flow of the air through the 90 degree bend into the intake.

But I guess since you claim to know everything about these products, you should fix it for Fiat and all of the other manufacturers.

So, how would Fiat fix the problem and still comply with Euro 4 emissions control regulations? Remeber, they are much more stringent than a simple MOT gas test.

 

[Shadeyman]

The "restrictor plate" is also known as the "swirl gasket".

The swirl gasket does not restrict any gas flow. It is designed to speed up the flow of the air through the 90 degree bend into the intake.

But I guess since you claim to know everything about these products, you should fix it for Fiat and all of the other manufacturers.

So, how would Fiat fix the problem and still comply with Euro 4 emissions control regulations? Remeber, they are much more stringent than a simple MOT gas test.

Fiat called it a "Restrictor Plate" for a reason. They didn't call it a swirl gasket nor did they claim it speeds up the flow, the clue is in its name. :bang:


Collected the Restrictor Plate from Guest Fiat today and I'll be fitting it to my daughters Multiwagon later. The holes are very small, virtually blocking off the gas flow compared to the original gasket. I'm expecting the daughter to notice a difference as her EGR, Manifold and MAP sensor have never been cleaned or replaced.

EDIT
The guy I spoke to at Fiat suggested changing the possition of where the Restrictor Plate is installed to between the intercooler and the EGR. This is to help keep the crap off the EGR valve and reduce the chances of it sticking. He also advised me to remove and clean the intercooler as large amounts of crap build up in it reducing its cooling ability.

 

[Davren]

Fiat called it a "Restrictor Plate" for a reason. They didn't call it a swirl gasket nor did they claim it speeds up the flow, the clue is in its name.

I've not seen anywhere that Fiat have called it a restrictor plate or a swirl gasket. In fact according to ePER and your invoice from Guest, they call it a gasket.

Bosch use the name restrictor and I suspect the name swirl gasket came about from people's attempts to describe its function. By restricting the gas flow, it benefits from the "hosepipe effect", thus increasing the speed of gas flow and by making three small holes, I suspect it creates a swirl effect to the gas that's designed to keep the EGR valve cleaner.

Whether we, Fiat or Bosch call it a gasket, a swirl gasket, a restrictor plate or a bit of metal with 3 or 5 holes in it, is irrelevant.

 

[Suicide_Jockey]

The holes are very small, virtually blocking off the gas flow compared to the original gasket.

Out of curiousity, could you kindly measure (A) the diameter of one of the restrictor-holes (guessing @ circa 5mm, maybe 4mm), and (B) the original venturi diameter of the port ... My geek-engineer side is nosey.

The guy I spoke to at Fiat suggested changing the possition of where the Restrictor Plate is installed to between the intercooler and the EGR. This is to help keep the crap off the EGR valve and reduce the chances of it sticking. He also advised me to remove and clean the intercooler as large amounts of crap build up in it reducing its cooling ability.

Interesting & logical .... Thank you kindly.

 

[Shadeyman]

I've not seen anywhere that Fiat have called it a restrictor plate or a swirl gasket. In fact according to ePER and your invoice from Guest, they call it a gasket.

Bosch use the name restrictor and I suspect the name swirl gasket came about from people's attempts to describe its function. By restricting the gas flow, it benefits from the "hosepipe effect", thus increasing the speed of gas flow and by making three small holes, I suspect it creates a swirl effect to the gas that's designed to keep the EGR valve cleaner.

Whether we, Fiat or Bosch call it a gasket, a swirl gasket, a restrictor plate or a bit of metal with 3 or 5 holes in it, is irrelevant.

The guys I spoke to at Fiat called it a Restrictor Plate the same as Bosch do, they knew exactly what it was and what it did.

The air flow only increases(if at all) as it passes through the hole of the plate. The air flow through the intercooler, EGR etc is drastically reduced. He explained it to me like this.

Cut a 25mm hole in the bottom of a paint tin, fill it with water and time how long it takes to empty. Now fit a thin plate over the hole with 3 small holes drilled in it. The flow of water is reduced and the water in the tin takes much longer to empty out.

While the speed of the flow through the holes in the plate is the same as before the actual amout of water that flows per second is completely reduced.

If as you say the design is to Swirl the gases it would look similar to the ones they fit on motorcycles(attached), they dont reduce the flow as you can tell by its "bladed design".

EDIT

Out of curiousity, could you kindly measure (A) the diameter of one of the restrictor-holes (guessing @ circa 5mm, maybe 4mm), and (B) the original venturi diameter of the port ... My geek-engineer side is nosey.

The holes in the plate are 5.5mm, only have an old tape measure to use so could be 0.5mm either way.

Not got the EGR off yet but will measure its port as soon as I do.

I think it was 25mm so maybe this will help.

Each hole has an area of - 0.19634954084936 cm2

So all 3 holes have a total area of - 0.58904862254808 cm2

Compare that to the actual area of the EGR port - 4.9087385212341 cm2

As you can see, a signifficant reduction in size.

 

[Davren]

The guys I spoke to at Fiat called it a Restrictor Plate the same as Bosch do, they knew exactly what it was and what it did.

As I said, what anyone chooses to call it is irrelevant.

Cut a 25mm hole in the bottom of a paint tin, fill it with water and time how long it takes to empty. Now fit a thin plate over the hole with 3 small holes drilled in it. The flow of water is reduced and the water in the tin takes much longer to empty out.

In your paint tin comparison, the pressure acting on the surface of the water would only be atmospheric pressure (1 Bar = 14.7 psi at sea level). Pressure acting on the exhaust flow would be considerably higher.

Make a hole in the paint tin the same size as the internal exhaust pipe diameter and put your hand over it. It will be very easy to stop the flow. Put your (gloved) hand over the exhaust tail pipe with the engine running and it won't be so easy. Good way to check for exhaust leaks along the exhaust system though .

 

[Argonought]

"swirl gasket"

Fiat called it a "Restrictor Plate" for a reason. They didn't call it a swirl gasket nor did they claim it speeds up the flow, the clue is in its name. :bang:

Davren has already answered this quite effectively but I'll try to make this definitive anyway:

As the exhaust feed to the EGR is not exclusive (it can also pass through the turbo) then there's no question the gasket will reduce the flow. However, it's equally certain that local flow through the gasket will increase in velocity causing turbulence in the immediate vicinity.

At this point it's therefore equally valid to describe the gasket as "swirl or "restrictor"

Engineering intent

1. It's perfectly possible to reduce exhaust flow without causing turbulence (simply install gasket on exhaust side of EGR) but it's not possible to cause turbulence without reducing exhaust flow.
2. A single hole in the gasket would make a perfectly good restrictor so why would you make three (leaving aside jokey comments that Fiat don't have the right drills ) ?
3. Taking account of it's location, as I believe it was really intended, just flush with the stop valve (furthest from EGR) then it will generate significant turbulence causing exhaust gases to mix with the air coming from the intercooler. A positive side effect might be that soot deposits are less inclined to settle within the inlet manifold but this I accept is speculation.

Considering these observations, I believe we can safely say that Fiat intended to cause turbulence and therefore, if anyone insists on being pedantic about it, the correct term should be "swirl gasket"

EDIT
The guy I spoke to at Fiat suggested changing the possition of where the Restrictor Plate is installed to between the intercooler and the EGR. This is to help keep the crap off the EGR valve and reduce the chances of it sticking. He also advised me to remove and clean the intercooler as large amounts of crap build up in it reducing its cooling ability.

I presume he was joking with you.

If you do manage fit the gasket between the intercooler and the throttle body (nearest place you'll get to the EGR) then I can't see you going anywhere fast.

 

[Shadeyman]

As I said, what anyone chooses to call it is irrelevant.

In your paint tin comparison, the pressure acting on the surface of the water would only be atmospheric pressure (1 Bar = 14.7 psi at sea level). Pressure acting on the exhaust flow would be considerably higher.

Make a hole in the paint tin the same size as the internal exhaust pipe diameter and put your hand over it. It will be very easy to stop the flow. Put your (gloved) hand over the exhaust tail pipe with the engine running and it won't be so easy. Good way to check for exhaust leaks along the exhaust system though .

Irrelevant?
Perhaps Bosch should have called it an "Irrelevant Plate" then instead of naming it after its design spec and obvious purpose?

His paint tin example was just that, an example. The theory is still the same. Reduce the aperture and you reduce the flow.
Its a good job it does or we would all have very serious problems with the taps on our sinks.

I presume he was joking with you.

If you do manage fit the gasket between the intercooler and the throttle body (nearest place you'll get to the EGR) then I can't see you going anywhere fast.

Your obviously unaware that there is an intercooler between the exhaust and the EGR to cool the gases the EGR allows into the inlet manifold.

I guess your unaware of a lot of things.... relating to the Stilos EGR ..

 

[Argonought]

The theory is the same still the same. Reduce the aperture and you reduce the flow.
Its a good job it does or we would all have very serious problems with the taps on our sinks.

I'm really disappointed considering your internet searching skills.

Go and check out basic flow theory (gas or liquid) and then post again.

 

[Shadeyman]

I'm really disappointed considering your internet searching skills.

Go and check out basic flow theory (gas or liquid) and then post again.

As I've already said the rate of flow is the same throught the reduced actual aperture(Restrictor Plate in our case) the flow of the whole system however is reduced. A perfect example is your sink tap.

 

[Argonought]

Your obviously unaware that there is an intercooler between the exhaust and the EGR to cool the gases the EGR allows into the inlet manifold.

You're the first I've heard refer to it as an "intercooler"

You should be more specific if that's what you meant.

 

[Argonought]

As I've already said the rate of flow is the same throught the reduced actual aperture(Restrictor Plate in our case) the flow of the whole system however is reduced. A perfect example is your sink tap.

So you don't know much about sink taps either

Ever done any washing up

 

[T14086]

Its know as a swirl gasket, restrictor plate comes from poor translation and italian termonology, this is the UK. The italians call a plastic trim an 'ornament' for example.

The reason it doesn't 'look like' a motorbike swirl gasket is because they were fitted to air intake and not recirculated (very) hot air. I have seen coke cans completely burnt away (wonder where all the bits have gone) when used a EGR blanks.

 

[Shadeyman]

You're the first I've heard refer to it as an "intercooler"

You should be more specific if that's what you meant.

And what would you call it, an "Irrelevant-cooler" perhaps?

Its know as a swirl gasket, restrictor plate comes from poor translation and italian termonology, this is the UK. The italians call a plastic trim an 'ornament' for example.

The reason it doesn't 'look like' a motorbike swirl gasket is because they were fitted to air intake and not recirculated (very) hot air. I have seen coke cans completely burnt away (wonder where all the bits have gone) when used a EGR blanks.

Bosch made it and named it, they're German not Italian.

The amount of restriction speaks for iteself.

Each hole has an area of - 0.19634954084936 cm2

So all 3 holes have a total area of - 0.58904862254808 cm2

Compare that to the actual area of the EGR port - 4.9087385212341 cm2

 

[Argonought]

The amount of restriction speaks for iteself.

I wasn't aware anyone said otherwise.

Do you reply to posts without reading them