General egr valve

[adamcot]

This is the trouble with Wikipedia, anyone can enter information and everyone takes it as read.

Look at the citation (4) at the bottom of the page. The quote is taken from a book called "Bennett, Sean (2004). Medium/Heavy Duty Truck Engines, Fuel & Computerized Management Systems 2nd Edition"

Some bed time reading for you:

Med/Hvy Duty Truck Engines 2e Medium/Heavy Duty Truck: Amazon.co.uk: Bennett: Books

I don't think I've ever seen a 1.9 litre engine in a truck.

 

[Shadeyman]

Lets make it even more simple.

If Fiat got the design right in the first place and took older cars into consideration, I and many others wouldn't have EGR's, manifolds and MAP sensors full of crap and all the problems they cause.

 

[Argonought]

Oh dear!

I had a feeling this thread might degrade to "Fiat don't know how to design engines"

 

[Shadeyman]

Oh dear!

I had a feeling this thread might degrade to "Fiat don't know how to design engines"

At present, two technologies are available to comply with the pollutant emission standards EURO 4 and EURO 5 for vehicles:

1. Cooled exhaust gas recirculation (EGR)
2. Exhaust gas aftertreatment, SRC. (SCR = selective catalytic reduction).

Whereas EGR only complies with EURO 4 at present, SCR reliably complies with both EURO 4 and EURO 5. SCR will also be the basic technology for even more stringent directives (e.g. EPA 10 in the USA or EURO 6, which is already being discussed).

Fiat had a choice. The one they chose doesn't work to well on cars with a few thousand miles on the clock.

 

[adamcot]

At present, two technologies are available to comply with the pollutant emission standards EURO 4 and EURO 5 for vehicles:

1. Cooled exhaust gas recirculation (EGR)
2. Exhaust gas aftertreatment, SRC. (SCR = selective catalytic reduction).

Whereas EGR only complies with EURO 4 at present, SCR reliably complies with both EURO 4 and EURO 5. SCR will also be the basic technology for even more stringent directives (e.g. EPA 10 in the USA or EURO 6, which is already being discussed).

Fiat had a choice. The one they chose doesn't work to well on cars with a few thousand miles on the clock.

Which main stream manufacturers do you know of that use SCR in light duty applications?

It doesn't last long either, so that would be a replaceable part that you would be moaning about the cost of replacing.

Seems like you have an issue with the Euro emissions regulations, not Fiat's design. If you have a look into other manufacturers diesel engines, Fiat isn't the only one that has used the EGR system. Maybe you should go and tell the world they are wrong?

 

[Shadeyman]

Like many others I had an issue with my EGR filling my manifold and MAP sensor with crap and causing me problems.

But I have a simple solution, I blanked it off.

Not quite sure why some people get their knickers in a twist when people want to save themselves a lot of hassle and block it off. :shrug:

 

[adamcot]

So did I on my previous car but it is a fact of running a modern diesel engine. The perks are the economy, torque and tuneability. Downsides are these control systems. I also have a new-fangled DPF on my Alfa. I love the regen process, along with 12mpg while the regen is happening. But it is a fact of running the engine.

I was talking with a friend who has also spent a lot of time with EGR systems (he helped write a guide on reconditioning the EGR solenoid). We discussed how the system gets so gunked up, what causes the mess? Rather than just blaming the valve, we were looking further down the line. While working on the induction system of the cars, it came to light a large amount of oil can seep through the breather pipe, through the turbo and into the intercooler pipes and into the engine.

What's the chance of putting an oil catch tank into the system to see if that helps?

 

[Shadeyman]

Any chance your friend would allow you to post his guide on reconditioning the EGR solenoid here on FF. I'm sure many people would find it very usefull, myself included.

 

[adamcot]

It is available here

http://www.torqueitalia.net/forum/threads/533-EGR-solenoid-reconditioning

You may have to sign up for the images to display, not sure.

 

[Argonought]

Fiat had a choice. The one they chose doesn't work to well on cars with a few thousand miles on the clock.

The problem is you keeping up with that line but with absolutely nothing to substantiate it.

If you want to argue that it's your personal experience and viewpoint then OK but you can't just generalise and suggest you speak for everyone.

For heavens sake, my JTD is still on the original EGR after over 8 years and I can't believe it's the only one like it on the whole planet.

I did fit the swirl gasket quite some time ago (when it first came out) which may just account for it's long life but apart from that it's never failed even once. I did some experimenting by blocking it (to get to the bottom of a boost problem) and there's no question the engine runs better with it functional.

 

[Shadeyman]

The problem is you keeping up with that line but with absolutely nothing to substantiate it.

A quick search of this forum will provide anyone that cares to look with skip fulls of EGR problems, most of which are caused by a build up of crap on cars with a few miles on the clock.

I'm glad your EGR has behaved itself for 8 years, probabely because you regulary clean it during services(a comment you made in another EGR problem thread). But for most of us the EGR is a problem that can be easily solved by cleaning everything then blanking it off to prevent the same problems occuring again.

Fact..

However, there is a dilemma when applying EGR. The combustion at lower temperatures is a
less efficient combustion process. Whilst NOx gases are reduced the amount of Particulate
Matter remaining in the exhaust gas stream increases. Additionally, fuel consumption​

intensifies.

Mines blocked off and its staying that way and if like my car anyone else out there has 100,000 mile on the clocks and is considering blocking theirs off, my advise is do it and join the Blocked EGR Club ...

 

[Argonought]

A quick search of this forum will provide anyone that cares to look with skip fulls of EGR problems, most of which are caused by a build up of crap on cars with a few miles on the clock.

Most people are able to comprehend these are faults which can be resolved.

The concept is really not that difficult.

I'm glad your EGR has behaved itself for 8 years, probabely because you regulary clean it during services(a comment you made in another EGR problem thread).

Actually I don't apart from the one time as mentioned

Fact..

However, there is a dilemma when applying EGR. The combustion at lower temperatures is a
less efficient combustion process. Whilst NOx gases are reduced the amount of Particulate
Matter remaining in the exhaust gas stream increases. Additionally, fuel consumption​

intensifies.

Anyone can make selective out of context snips from the internet - is there really any point - unless you're able to make reasoned discussion about it :shrug:

I tell you what. Seeing as you seem to know more about good engine design than Fiat then perhaps you'd like to visit their engineers and put then right about it (I'm sure they'd offer you a top position)

While you're about it perhaps you'd like to explain to them your other widely held view about getting their engines to run on water

I wonderful idea you also picked up from trawling the internet I gather

 

[Shadeyman]

You really do get your knickers in a twist when people decide to block off their EGR. :shrug:

Fiat already know there is a problem with the EGR and they've issued a "half-arsed" attempt at curing it. See the attached PDF document, just a snippet I stumbled accross on the internet.

They pretty much block the EGR off. The Restrictor Plate lives up to its name and restricts the flow of exhaust gases into the manifold to an absolute minimum. Leaving just enough flowing throught the EGR to give the impression its actually doing something usefull.

Part number - 71751469

 

[Suicide_Jockey]

Fiat already know there is a problem with the EGR and they've issued a "half-arsed" attempt at curing it. See the attached PDF document, just a snippet I stumbled accross on the internet.

They pretty much block the EGR off. The Restrictor Plate lives up to its name and restricts the flow of exhaust gases into the manifold to an absolute minimum. Leaving just enough flowing throught the EGR to give the impression its actually doing something usefull.

I'd definitely have to agree that that's a pretty strong case in favour of your view, Stu, as :-

A) ... It most certainly DOES block off & restrict what appears to be the far larger proportion of the original port area (I would guesstimate circa 65-80% of the original area is blocked, going by the photos)
&
B) ... It most certainly IS a "Clear Modification" to the original engine design & operating specifications which would indeed have a substantial impact relative to "original / standard".
&
C) ... It would most certainly fall outside what Argonought & Adamcot consider to be "acceptable" or "a proper repair" to the original design in terms of their statements here :-

The elementary axiom here is: that is the case because you have not returned the engine to it's original specification which we define as an engine which is properly repaired

If anyone wants to modify their engine then that's up to them but lets do away with all this nonsense that just because a fancy gasket has been fitted then that makes it "a proper repair"

&

Fiat have enough technical knowledge to have been aware of the possible issue when they designed the engine, so don't you think it's left to them to decide how parts are fitted? Unless you know better, then maybe you should be getting a job there to show them how to do it?

http://autorepair.about.com/od/glossary/gr/def_egr-valve.htm
Not saying it is the most amazing source in the world, but if you blank the EGR off, are you not technically raising the intake temperature and thereby making the engine run hotter? What's the long term effects?

From an engineering & legal point of view, it appears to me personally that Fiat may well have struck the closest LEGAL balance they could between (A) coming as close as they could to blocking/minimising the flow of recycled-crap through the engine, whilst simultaneously (B) allowing JUST enough flow to validate/maintain (on paper) their Emission / Euro IV Legal Requirements & Certifications.

PS ... Thank you kindly for the useful info.

 

[Shadeyman]

I believe Argonought has the best solution for those that want to continue using their EGR to the original design.
He regulary strips and cleans the EGR, manifold etc. as part of his service routine. If Fiat were to adopt his idea and have it as an option when having a FULL Fiat service I'm sure, as Argonought has proven with his own car, EGR related problems would be significantly reduced. Would obviously cost extra but the original design would be maintained and it would be a "proper" fix.

 

[Argonought]

C) ... It would most certainly fall outside what Argonought & Adamcot consider to be "acceptable" or "a proper repair" to the original design in terms of their statements here :-

Yes; you have demonstrated a great example of when it's a good idea to use a caveat being:

"....unless the modification is recommended by the engine manufacturer"

Also remember the modification would increase air-flow turbulence which I believe was Fiats intent - and thereby naturally reduce soot build-up

I believe Argonought has the best solution for those that want to continue using their EGR to the original design.
He regulary strips and cleans the EGR, manifold etc. as part of his service routine.

As already said, that's actually not the case. :shakehead:

I did a basic strip down once in order to block the EGR for test purposes, as documented on the Forum (from which you got those gasket photos BTW), and obviously cleaned it in the process (as we do) but I have to say it wasn't that coked up anyway.

Interesting, I fitted the swirl gasket on the 'wrong' side based on what Fiat techs have told me.

I fitted mine next to the stop valve and from my positive experience of zero EGR issues this may well be the best place

 

[Shadeyman]

Not sure why your so intent on arguing when you knew all about the Fiats attempt at curing the EGR problem.

Here are those gaskets NumanR mentioned.

From the shape it must fit one of the flanges on the ends of the corrugated tube which connects between EGR and stop valve. Would imagine it makes little difference which end you fit it to.

The black gaskets which are fitted both sides of this new gasket look to me to be identical to the standard gasket. It that's the case then strictly speaking you only need one as the other is already in place.

Costs:
New Gasket = £11.29
Original Gasket = £1.68 (x2)

Just fitted the gasket to mine

I only used one sealing gasket (not both) as it was darn difficult getting all 3 to line up properly I placed the single sealing gasket facing the corrugated pipe and it seems to have sealed OK.

Unfortunately, I can't comment on any change since the engine's radically improved anyway since having the boost issue sorted :devil:

But thanks for the English language lessons. I had to google some of the words you used.

 

[Argonought]

Not sure why your so intent on arguing when you knew all about the Fiats attempt at curing the EGR problem.

Well, I knew that you were aware of this mod as we had discussed it before.

But you're right, I wouldn't recommend anyone fixing an EGR problem without ALSO carrying out this mod - and in fact I'd recommend fitting the swirl gasket whether you have any problem with the EGR or not.

Thanks for bringing up my old post BTW

 

[Shadeyman]

"swirl gasket"

I remember that thread now you've mentioned it.

I've just tried to order a Restrictor Plate, they're going to phone me back. I plan to fit it to my daughters Multiwagon. Give me something to compare to. We both drive Stilo JTD Multiwagons, hers will have Fiats Restrictor Plate fitted and mine will be fully blanked off. I dont think there will be much difference as the holes in the Restrictor Plate are so small but I'll post anything I do find.

 

[Oakley28]

Its is just me or is this getting very petty? Its not about the topic anymore, its just an outright argument as to who can have the last word. Neither one of you is going to agree with the other and I hate to break it to you, but this is the way of the world. If everyone had the same views, opinions and ideas the world would be soooo boring.

To share my view- I agree with both of you in some way. Blanking the EGR is a great way to see if the valve is faulty. I blanked mine off a few days ago with a plate from eBay and the responses have been great. Throttle response comes from no revs so I assume the EGR is faulty.

I do however agree that its not classed as a repair cause lets be honest no amount of justification from anyone can make you believe its a 'fix' because it just isn't. I'm glad I did block it off though and I will be fitting the replacement when it arrives.