Technical Ducato starting problem - not the usual

[bugsymike]

I will say that back on 1990 we had a similar issue with our Uno. It was only when I went and bought a genuine Fiat starter motor it stopped. I was never aware of why it did this. I never entirely trust new bits until they prove themselves and if I get a faulty part or battery now, I go somewhere else for a 2nd replacement so I dont get caught by bad batches.

I like your suggestion of turning the ring gear. A bit outside my range of ability digging the flywheel out now and back then I didnt have the time.

Not my suggestion, though I had heard of it done I am not that mean with my money.
I liked the story about a well established family firm of solicitors that had been trading for several 100 years on same site and the current owner, when presented with an estimate for replacing a well worn front door step suggested to the builder that he simply turn it upside down, only to be informed that his grandfather had done that many years before.

 

[Ocwobio]

i have only ever put the clips on to the battery terminals, but, also worth noting, the noco is not a big one for a moho, ie. a large diesel engine, so perhaps if the vehicle battery was a little low on juice, the noco may not have enough umph to fire it up?

You would be surprised, as was I being sceptical about the efficacy of such small boost packs. My battery had died in storage in March, also an A class, so the terminals were a pig to reach. Someone younger and more agile than I managed, just, to get the positive one on by a whisker. The negative was much easier. It did the trick easily. Note, however, that these things do need a very well charged battery to start easily, which they usually do, but a less than 95% charge can cause problems, sometimes with other systems on the van, as happened to my ABS/ASR, due to low volts. I must agree with the ring gear opinions, and also the removal of the starter to visually inspect same. Starting on the 2.8JTD in normal circumstances is usually instantaneous and vigorous. If you are not doing the work, ask your garage to do this before removing the gearbox. Fortunately, it does not sound like a huge problem. Apart from having to shove a heavy vehicle to make it good to start!

 

[Blueywr1]

Not been back to update the thread, as vehicle still in storage, with vehicle battery disconnected.
I know there were mixed opinions on replacing / adding additional earth leads, but it was a cheap and easy task that I was able to do myself, so I have added one from the negative terminal on the battery, down to the engine casing by the flywheel casing.
We are due to go away for a couple of nights over the festive period, so we will see how it behaves.
If we experience a repeat of the problem, I will get it booked in to the garage and go armed with the suggestions in the thread, for which I'm grateful for.

 

[Blueywr1]

Hi again all.
Well, the short getaway over Xmas was inconclusive, as we had use of another vehicle, so the moho sat on its pitch and literally didn't get started until we departed.... and it behaved.

A couple of weeks ago, I visited it at its storage site. I found the vehicle battery flat. Bear in mind, it was not very old, however, the little bubble on the top of it said, "replace".
I bought a new Yuasa battery again and fitted it.

That's now 2 new batteries, 2 new starter motors and an additional earth cable.

We have come away today and have stopped en-route twice and both times the moho has failed to start. Without doing anything other than sitting and waiting for a few mins and trying to start it every 30 secs, it has started on both occasions after a few mins.

I think therefore we can rule out the earth strap, as you'll recall I fitted an additional cable.

I'd also say the same for the fly wheel, as we did not rock/push the moho.

I know there are plenty of suggestions you guys have offered, but I thought I'd give you an update.

Moho clearly needs to go to the workshop. It can't continue like this for our sanity! One breakdown was in a petrol station, where we were glared at several times for causing an obstruction!

 

[bugsymike]

Hi again all.
Well, the short getaway over Xmas was inconclusive, as we had use of another vehicle, so the moho sat on its pitch and literally didn't get started until we departed.... and it behaved.

A couple of weeks ago, I visited it at its storage site. I found the vehicle battery flat. Bear in mind, it was not very old, however, the little bubble on the top of it said, "replace".
I bought a new Yuasa battery again and fitted it.

That's now 2 new batteries, 2 new starter motors and an additional earth cable.

We have come away today and have stopped en-route twice and both times the moho has failed to start. Without doing anything other than sitting and waiting for a few mins and trying to start it every 30 secs, it has started on both occasions after a few mins.

I think therefore we can rule out the earth strap, as you'll recall I fitted an additional cable.

I'd also say the same for the fly wheel, as we did not rock/push the moho.

I know there are plenty of suggestions you guys have offered, but I thought I'd give you an update.

Moho clearly needs to go to the workshop. It can't continue like this for our sanity! One breakdown was in a petrol station, where we were glared at several times for causing an obstruction!

Does sound like a good auto electrician needs to be there when fault occurs, although like the dentist, the pain goes away on visit.

 

[Blueywr1]

Sat mulling this over and have just ordered a new ignition switch. Cash really has to be thrown at this! We are hopping around the Scottish Western Isles during the summer - we don't want to be stuck on a ferry, or a slipway!
Hopefully I can fit it myself. For safety reasons, I'll assume I should disconnect the battery?

 

[the green vanper]

Hopefully I can fit it myself.

Not sure about that, there are some kind of security screws in there (I don't know the proper English name). Might be difficult to take the old ones out.

According to ePER they are the same as in the x250 model, I posted a photo of the ignition switch on the steering column and the screws here:

https://www.fiatforum.com/attachments/2023-06-08-23-16-33-jpg.424920/

https://www.fiatforum.com/account/attachment-manager/424967/view

And yes, I'd disconnect the battery.

 

[bugsymike]

Not sure about that, there are some kind of security screws in there (I don't know the proper English name). Might be difficult to take the old ones out.

According to ePER they are the same as in the x250 model, I posted a photo of the ignition switch on the steering column and the screws here:

https://www.fiatforum.com/attachments/2023-06-08-23-16-33-jpg.424920/

https://www.fiatforum.com/account/attachment-manager/424967/view

And yes, I'd disconnect the battery.

OP may be able to just change the switch side, without steering lock.
Although I have undone many with the snap off bolts so not the end of the World.
Usually with a thin sharp chisel you can put an indent in the head and then use that to tap around the bolt until it gets easier and then I use a dentists stainless steel pliers with the ratchet gripping ends.
Often once you have got the easiest one moving the other one looses it grip and can be undone.

 

[the green vanper]

snap off bolts

Will try to remember that Thanks

 

[Communicator]

Having had what seemed to be a failure to energise the starter solenoid on three occasions during four days last October, I decided to eliminate the ignition switch by substitution.
I made the mistake of purchasing the cheaper one type fits all version switch module, which cost about £8. Perhaps I inadvertantly moved the rotor slightly, when trying to install in the lock mechanism. I am well versed in electromechanical mechanisms, but I did not manage to successfully install the part, despite carefully noting the position of physical coupling on lock mechanism and switch, as well as checking for zero connections across the switch (off position). Deciding that I had spent far too much time on the task, I cut my losses and purchased an more expensive alternative insert which exactly matched the original insert. This located easily and functions correctly. Part number is 1389442080.

Adopting this approach avoids any wrestling with shear bolts, and the need to move lock inserts.
As I was only dealing with the ignition switch, and being safety conscious, I elected to remove only the 30A, supply fuse F3, in the engine bay fusebox, bu I have not convinced myself that this was necessary as the connectors are well shrouded.

Removing and replacing the lower column cover can be fiddlesome. I have found that a short piece of plastic hose slipped over the screwdriver shaft, aids centering on the No. 2 Pozidrive screw heads.
The upper cover is secured by two hidden screws. To retain the screws I folded two squares of electrical tape into triangles and poked small pilot holes into the centre. The cover was carefully removed from the screws, and the tape triangles were fitted onto the screws as retaining washers.

At some stages I found myself standing in the cab, leaning over the steering wheel, and rubbing my head against the windscreen.

Attached below are some files which may help. On my ignition switch diagram, a black square indicates a connection across the switch.

 

[Blueywr1]

Thanks guys - all noted.
FYI, I have ordered a genuine part, so should make life a bit easier.

 

[Blueywr1]

quick update......
it was a relatively easy job replacing the ignition switch, so that's now completed.
i ordered a new (fiat) positive battery clamp / fuse board. i will fit this tomorrow, but it will be a pain to fit, as i'll have to go in from the top - thus removing the dashboard top cover and insulation panel.
we have booked to go away this weekend to try it!

 

[Communicator]

quick update......
it was a relatively easy job replacing the ignition switch, so that's now completed.
i ordered a new (fiat) positive battery clamp / fuse board. i will fit this tomorrow, but it will be a pain to fit, as i'll have to go in from the top - thus removing the dashboard top cover and insulation panel.
we have booked to go away this weekend to try it!

I assume that its due to the confined access created by the "A" class conversion, but is it not possible to change the battery fuseboard from under the bonnet? The board would have to be separated from the battery, to allow battery changing, which I would expect to have been done at least twice.

 

[Blueywr1]

Generally, the access through the vertically-lifting bonnet is awful and it's a height which hurts your lower back even after just a few mins.
The battery is right at the back of the engine bay, or behind the steering wheel.
It takes a few mins to dismantle the dashboard panels, but it's considerably less painful on my body.

 

[Blueywr1]

Entering all.
Well, the weekend away in the Cotswolds has been troublesome, but may be helpful.
You'll know that I recently fitted the new ignition switch and also positive battery clamp.
They haven't cured the starting problem. We were a little hopeful at times, as when it didn't start on the first turn off the key, it did the second, however, after more stops, there were times it didn't start for perhaps 20 attempts.
Journey home then illuminated the engine warning light and I noticed a considerable amount of black smoke under acceleration, and a lack of power even on the smallest of inclines.
Got home and plugged in the OBD scanner to get code(s). See pic.
Clutching at straws..... Could this be causing the non starting and maybe the sensor has been on its way out?

 

[bugsymike]

Entering all.
Well, the weekend away in the Cotswolds has been troublesome, but may be helpful.
You'll know that I recently fitted the new ignition switch and also positive battery clamp.
They haven't cured the starting problem. We were a little hopeful at times, as when it didn't start on the first turn off the key, it did the second, however, after more stops, there were times it didn't start for perhaps 20 attempts.
Journey home then illuminated the engine warning light and I noticed a considerable amount of black smoke under acceleration, and a lack of power even on the smallest of inclines.
Got home and plugged in the OBD scanner to get code(s). See pic.
Clutching at straws..... Could this be causing the non starting and maybe the sensor has been on its way out?

Certainly worth looking at the Crankshaft Position Sensor (CPS) then.
Generally I have found CPS to fail when hot and cause instant engine cut out, but after ten minutes cooling down has restarted and journey continued.
As another guide when engine not starting if CPS, it usually means you get no reading from the rev counter on cranking, trying to start engine.
However if wiring to CPS plug faulty that may give those symptoms, so worth checking that area also.
Unless giving intermittent connection to sensor, not sure why the black smoke?

 

[Blueywr1]

I will to locate it this week and get a replacement ordered. Hopefully it's a job I can do. Will have a search to find a tutorial or at least a pic of where it is.

 

[Communicator]

I will to locate it this week and get a replacement ordered. Hopefully it's a job I can do. Will have a search to find a tutorial or at least a pic of where it is.

I may have missed it, but you do not seem to mention whether your recent failures to start were either failure to crank, or failure to fire.
Failure to crank indicates something in the starter motor circuit, nothing more.
As @bugsymike has indicated the Crankshaft Poaition Sensor (CPS) is central to the operation of the engine. I can speculate that is the CPS is electromagnetic in operation, a faulty unit may well give an inadequate output at cranking speed, but suffice once engine has started.
On the otherhand the Camshaft Sensor is only used to determine the stroke when starting, and is not used subsequently.
For CPS location see attached photo. With a 2.8jtd, you do need to work from under the vehicle.

 

[Blueywr1]

@Communicator thanks for the pic . is that looking upwards if i were lying on the ground?
a refresh to describe the fail to start..........i can hear one click from the engine bay.

@bugsymike thanks. i noticed yesterday shortly after the "check engine" illuminated, i lost cruise control too. we stopped for fuel and although it didn't start for a few turns of the key, where previously when it has started (let's say eventually or with the first turn), it has fired up without hesitation, this time it had a delay in firing up - perhaps only a second, but it was noticeable. it also sounded different - difficult to explain and perhaps strange to even try!
i did get cruise control back after the fuel stop.
engine warning light remained lit, and as said, the black smoke under acceleration was very prevalent.

 

[Communicator]

@Communicator thanks for the pic . is that looking upwards if i were lying on the ground?
a refresh to describe the fail to start..........i can hear one click from the engine bay.

@bugsymike thanks. i noticed yesterday shortly after the "check engine" illuminated, i lost cruise control too. we stopped for fuel and although it didn't start for a few turns of the key, where previously when it has started (let's say eventually or with the first turn), it has fired up without hesitation, this time it had a delay in firing up - perhaps only a second, but it was noticeable. it also sounded different - difficult to explain and perhaps strange to even try!
i did get cruise control back after the fuel stop.
engine warning light remained lit, and as said, the black smoke under acceleration was very prevalent.

No. Picture was taken from a pit, horizontally over chassis subframe, which may be an obstruction. I suggest taking a look before committing to the task.

However if all you get from the engine bay when trying to start is a click, and no cranking of the engine, then that is not a symptom of a faulty CPS, but indicates a problem with the starter circuit. That is why I changed my ignition switch.