Technical Ducato starting problem - not the usual

[Blueywr1]

Ok, thanks.
You'll have seen I've just replaced the ignition switch and positive battery clamp, before the weekend away - sadly they've made no difference.
I've already replaced the starter motor and battery twice within the last 12 months.
Frustrating it sure is.

 

[Communicator]

Ok, thanks.
You'll have seen I've just replaced the ignition switch and positive battery clamp, before the weekend away - sadly they've made no difference.
I've already replaced the starter motor and battery twice within the last 12 months.
Frustrating it sure is.

I can fully appreciate that.
My vehicle, a PVC, is also a manual 2006 2,8jtd.
Many years ago I had cranking problems on an earlier vehicle, and got only a click when the engine was hot, I eventually diagnosed too low a solenoid current due to deteriorating contact resistances, and fitted a starter solenoid relay. I did subsequently read reports of similar problems in MMM.
Anthony489, has advised having the solenoid current checked with a clip on ammeter.
The x244 does not suffer from the notorious engine earth strap problems which beset the later x250 model. Perhaps the weak point in the main starter motor circuit is at the flag terminal. Corrosion of the cable has been reported to the inside this terminal, which is located below the battery, and forward of the RHS engine mounting see attached photo.

 

[Blueywr1]

Thanks again.
I'm going to have a clamber underneath to see if I can get to the CPS. The fault code indicates this as faulty and whether that be an unrelated issue or not, it needs attention.
You suggest that this won't influence the starter, so I'll need to give this some more thought and review the other posts that suggest workshop assistance.

 

[Communicator]

Thanks again.
I'm going to have a clamber underneath to see if I can get to the CPS. The fault code indicates this as faulty and whether that be an unrelated issue or not, it needs attention.
You suggest that this won't influence the starter, so I'll need to give this some more thought and review the other posts that suggest workshop assistance.

See attached diagram for starter operation. No connection to ECU, except for interlock with park "P" selection on automatics, which needs different diagram. Good luck with the crawling investigation.

 

[Blueywr1]

Had a chat with a friend this afternoon who has similar vehicle.
May I ask, does the x244 have a starter relay, as he suggested that it sounds like the starter motor isn't getting enough power and could be getting starved by a faulty relay?
Plausible????
Thanks

 

[Communicator]

Had a chat with a friend this afternoon who has similar vehicle.
May I ask, does the x244 have a starter relay, as he suggested that it sounds like the starter motor isn't getting enough power and could be getting starved by a faulty relay?
Plausible????
Thanks

Sorry for delay in reply. Any relay would be in starter solenoid circuit, but answer is no relay. Connection is from ignition switch to starter solenoid, but does use the engine bay fusebox as a link point. That does raise the possibility of a problem inside that fusebox. Similar boxes have been known to cause problems after water ingress. (A relay is used with automatic transmission, to prevent starting when not in "P" or park selection.)

 

[Blueywr1]

Clambering complete and can declare that I am unable to see, let alone access, the CPS!
I did test for continuity from negative battery terminal to the earth flag. I removed the bolt - which I've done in the past - and shone a light in to the thread and no signs of corrosion evident.
The bolt is in good condition too.
Time to book it in to the workshop, even if just for the CPS for now.
I might treat myself to a better electrical tester with a clamp.

 

[Communicator]

Clambering complete and can declare that I am unable to see, let alone access, the CPS!
I did test for continuity from negative battery terminal to the earth flag. I removed the bolt - which I've done in the past - and shone a light in to the thread and no signs of corrosion evident.
The bolt is in good condition too.
Time to book it in to the workshop, even if just for the CPS for now.
I might treat myself to a better electrical tester with a clamp.

1. Corrosion has been reported as occuring inside the flag terminal. You will not be able to measure the increase in resistance with a multimeter. Bettewr to view the bolt as a clamping device. Faces of both flag terminal, and chassis must be clean. Athin smear of vaseline will help to keep any moisture out.

2. Examine any advertisements very carefully, as a clamp on for AC only current, multimeter is often portrayed as an AC/DC multimeter, as it has both AC, and DC voltage ranges.

 

[Blueywr1]

2. Examine any advertisements very carefully, as a clamp on for AC only current, multimeter is often portrayed as an AC/DC multimeter, as it has both AC, and DC voltage ranges.

is anyone "in the know" able to suggest / post a link or 2 please?
the price range appears huge and the advertising blurb is confusing. i don't mind the spend, especially if it gives me more info to eliminate possible causes, but it won't get a lot of use otherwise.
screwfix would be my usual "go to", and i do have a gift voucher for them , but happy to buy elsewhere.
thanks

 

[NeilDD]

Look for an Automotive Multimeter or if you have an Amazon account

Loading…

www.amazon.co.uk

 

[Blueywr1]

Look for an Automotive Multimeter or if you have an Amazon account

Loading…

www.amazon.co.uk

wow - thanks.
thought i'd have to spend more than that.

 

[Communicator]

is anyone "in the know" able to suggest / post a link or 2 please?
the price range appears huge and the advertising blurb is confusing. i don't mind the spend, especially if it gives me more info to eliminate possible causes, but it won't get a lot of use otherwise.
screwfix would be my usual "go to", and i do have a gift voucher for them , but happy to buy elsewhere.
thanks

I am not sure about making recommendations, but the sort of thing to look out for are statemants like the following extract from Ebay.

"Measures AC to DC voltage, AC current, resistance and also offers diode and continuity testing."

Such a meter would be unsuitable because it cannot measure DC current.

Also the higher the number of the counts, and digits, the higher the potential accuracy, which can be useful when checking battery voltages.

 

[the green vanper]

As far as I remember looking for a multimeter some five years ago (to replace a very old one I've used for more than 20 years) a useful feature was 'True RMS' (for AC only however) and already when using it I found a very useful option a setting to save and display a minimal / maximal voltage from a period when the tool is connected (which allows registering peaks of voltage).

 

[Communicator]

I am not sure about making recommendations, but the sort of thing to look out for are statemants like the following extract from Ebay.

"Measures AC to DC voltage, AC current, resistance and also offers diode and continuity testing."

Such a meter would be unsuitable because it cannot measure DC current.

Also the higher the number of the counts, and digits, the higher the potential accuracy, which can be useful when checking battery voltages.

However you could check out the following links to Ebay.
Link 1, Link 2

 

[Blueywr1]

Afternoon.
I bought a suitable clamp meter and am now at the vehicle with the apprentice
With me under the vehicle with meter in hand and on the right setting (to measure DC current), with clamp around the thin red wire connected to the starter motor, wifey turns key and I get a reading of 27.82V but engine doesn't crank.
We repeated this about 5 times over a period of 10 mins.
Without doing anything, the next key turn fired it up immediately.
When it wouldn't start, whilst trying to watch the reading on the meter, the click I could hear is much higher up in the engine bay and I would guess at saying from the fuse box.
Welcome your thoughts again guys. Thanks

 

[Communicator]

Afternoon.
I bought a suitable clamp meter and am now at the vehicle with the apprentice
With me under the vehicle with meter in hand and on the right setting (to measure DC current), with clamp around the thin red wire connected to the starter motor, wifey turns key and I get a reading of 27.82V but engine doesn't crank.
We repeated this about 5 times over a period of 10 mins.
Without doing anything, the next key turn fired it up immediately.
When it wouldn't start, whilst trying to watch the reading on the meter, the click I could hear is much higher up in the engine bay and I would guess at saying from the fuse box.
Welcome your thoughts again guys. Thanks

If we substitute a value of 27.82A for the above reading, then it is entirely plausible.

At that current level, I would have expected the solenoid to engage the starter pinion and close its contact to energise the motor.
Presumably your head would be quite close to the starter assembly, And clunk from the solenoid should have been very noticeable.
My thoughts are that either 27.8A is insufficient, or something is physically preventing the starter pinion from engaging.
You have mentioned a click from higher in the engine bay, possibly in the fusebox. This is possible as it could be the main injection relay operating, which it must do for the engine to start.
Your apprentice may not have waited for the dash lights other than battery and oil to go out, before turning to the start position. It is good practice to wait for the lights to extinguish.. The click should then be audible before power is applied to the starter solenoid.

I am wondering whether it is time for the mechanic's pliers test, or perhaps a variation.
With battery negative disconnected, securely attach a length of perhaps 2.5mm insulated wire to the small starter solenoid terminal. Expose a very short length of the conductor at the remote end of the wire.
Remove cover from engine bay fusbox to expose the M6 input connection. Restore battery negative. Ensure neutral selected, and handbrake on.
With ignition off, dab exposed wire end onto fusebox feed cable lug. Starter should operate reliably, and no need to start the engine. This is probably easier than lying underneath for several attempts, and does not drag apprentice away from domestic duties.

If starter operates reliably, then perhaps there is a problem in the engine bay fusebox. Other faults have occured in similar fuse boxes. For info see here.

 

[bugsymike]

Maybe go back to basics and put a wire directly to the starter solenoid small wire that comes from ignition switch, the other end of the wire just brush across the battery positive terminal, starter should engage or try to. Note if wire thin or held on too long it will burn your fingers.
Assuming that makes no difference in the starting then if you are 100% sure all main battery leads are well connected and indeed you have even put an auxiliary earth lead on as well then to me I would question the quality of replacement starters fitted.
I believe @Communicator mentioned replacing a starter solenoid and I have done similar on a Peugeot where whilst the solenoid appears to click in it doesn't actually hold the heavy main contacts together enough for the 500 amp approx required to turn the starter motor over.
This can be with a poorly "remanufactured "starter or in my case a Peugeot with 175k miles on the clock. In my case I was able to clean the two contact areas and turned the "buzz bar" over to it's unused clean side so it was able to continue further towards 200k at zero cost as the bar was held in place with a nut and washer unlike this photo..
This video may indicate the parts inside the solenoid that I think are not transmitting the load to turn the starter motor it's self.

 

[Blueywr1]

Sorry guys....I meant 27.82 amps.

I'm pretty sure I could here the fuel pump priming, after she punched in the key code for the sigma immobiliser.

 

[Communicator]

Maybe go back to basics and put a wire directly to the starter solenoid small wire that comes from ignition switch, the other end of the wire just brush across the battery positive terminal, starter should engage or try to. Note if wire thin or held on too long it will burn your fingers.
Assuming that makes no difference in the starting then if you are 100% sure all main battery leads are well connected and indeed you have even put an auxiliary earth lead on as well then to me I would question the quality of replacement starters fitted.
I believe @Communicator mentioned replacing a starter solenoid and I have done similar on a Peugeot where whilst the solenoid appears to click in it doesn't actually hold the heavy main contacts together enough for the 500 amp approx required to turn the starter motor over.
This can be with a poorly "remanufactured "starter or in my case a Peugeot with 175k miles on the clock. In my case I was able to clean the two contact areas and turned the "buzz bar" over to it's unused clean side so it was able to continue further towards 200k at zero cost as the bar was held in place with a nut and washer unlike this photo..
This video may indicate the parts inside the solenoid that I think are not transmitting the load to turn the starter motor it's self.

Sorry Mike, but is that not I was suggesting, but avoiding creating sparks close to battery that may have been gassing?
If yes then we are in basic agreement.

I have repaired on or two starter motors. In the older Lucas models you could order all the compnents separately.

 

[Communicator]

Sorry guys....I meant 27.82 amps.

I'm pretty sure I could here the fuel pump priming, after she punched in the key code for the sigma immobiliser.

Doh! I do not remember previous mention of an immobiliser, but this could well be the cause of the problem, as some alarm systems used to interrupt the solenoid circuit. If you have to key a code into the alarm, in order to allow the engine to crank, then the alarm has contacts in the solenoid circuit.