Technical Ducato P0401 P0402 P0236 P0238 and limp mode its 2017 Euro 6, EGR changed, What do I check next
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Technical Ducato P0401 P0402 P0236 P0238 and limp mode its 2017 Euro 6, EGR changed, What do I check next
theoneandonly
Established member
For anyone new to Multiecuscan i wrote this simple step by step to measure specific parameters and save the data for additional analysis.
www.fiatforum.com
Ducato - Tutorial to Measure specific Engine PIDs (Parameter ID) and Save data for analysis.
This thread is for the general discussion of the Guide Tutorial to Measure specific Engine PIDs (Parameter ID) and Save data for analysis.. Please add to the discussion here. theoneandonly submitted a new guide: Tutorial to Measure specific Engine PIDs (Parameter ID) and Save data for...
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kangexpress
Member
I've got the opportunity to check a known working vehicle today.
Attached the MES screenshots.
611.000 km on the clock but with new (used replacement) engine.
Software Version 0032.
And what should I say.
Problem seems to be indeed the LP EGR Cooler.
I've noticed that LPEGR Temperature in idling is 50-60 C.
And under partial load and open LPEGR Valve it goes up to 105 C.
Besides the air and boost pressure problem, my LPEGR temperature doesn't reach more than 65C in any case.
So conclusion is - - > LPEGR cooler indeed is blocked.
I guess ECU in my van is noticing that as well and is trying to open the LPEGR full to get more air inside.
That's why the desired opening of LPEGR in my van is higher than the one in the working vans.
So unfortunately that has nothing to do with the software version.
Attached the MES screenshots.
611.000 km on the clock but with new (used replacement) engine.
Software Version 0032.
And what should I say.
Problem seems to be indeed the LP EGR Cooler.
I've noticed that LPEGR Temperature in idling is 50-60 C.
And under partial load and open LPEGR Valve it goes up to 105 C.
Besides the air and boost pressure problem, my LPEGR temperature doesn't reach more than 65C in any case.
So conclusion is - - > LPEGR cooler indeed is blocked.
I guess ECU in my van is noticing that as well and is trying to open the LPEGR full to get more air inside.
That's why the desired opening of LPEGR in my van is higher than the one in the working vans.
So unfortunately that has nothing to do with the software version.
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Fredastaire
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The LP EGR is a composite unit. There is a butterfly throttle. I think that It operates in sequence with it's EGR valve to close off the air from the normal air filter to make the turbo suck exhaust, probably blends it. If this throttle closes AND the cooler is blocked there is no way that the turbo has a chance to make the inlet manifold pressure because it's strangled.
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Question is, am I right in my theory?
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Question is, am I right in my theory?
kangexpress
Member
Theory sounds possible.
There is one point that needs to be considered.
What I've red about LPEGR in other cars, like VW, is that the airflow from LPEGR also gives a force onto the tubrine and generates that way more boost pressure e.g. quicker response of turbocharger in partial load situation.
If this would be also the case in FIAT than just giving fresh air maybe doesn't solve the problem.
It will maybe throw up other codes.
There are a lot of sensors and the whole EGR process is watched by the ECU.
If the ECU thinks there is some problem, it will throw codes and go into limp mode.
My opinion is cleaning out LPEGR and LPEGR cooler could solve the problem.
But it's a matter of time problem comes back.
Because LPEGR cooler gets blocked again.
Maybe gets blocked faster because of other issues (DPF, Injectors, etc...)
Or a ECU programmer shuts of the EGR and related codes in the software.
That would be a long term solution.
Fredastaire
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I'm still wondering if it possible to undo / remove the flexi pipe to the cooler and do keyhole surgery up the cooler pipe to the tea strainer gauze and vacuum suck out carbon/ liquid clean the gauze without major disassembly.
I need to go under my van for a detail look as my comments above are pure thought at this moment.
I need to go under my van for a detail look as my comments above are pure thought at this moment.
theoneandonly
Established member
Attached are some graphs from a Ducato with a mil light but no P401, any comments. PS not mine (engine A)
Fredastaire
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The injectors look way out. If memory is correct the maximum individual injector balance should be +-2
The lpegr looks to be working, from my van this EGR opens when you put foot on pedal and closes with foot off. The graph clearly shows it closing with foot off and the EGR temp then falls because the infeed exhaust has been stopped. Then temp climbs again when EGR opens again.
The lpegr looks to be working, from my van this EGR opens when you put foot on pedal and closes with foot off. The graph clearly shows it closing with foot off and the EGR temp then falls because the infeed exhaust has been stopped. Then temp climbs again when EGR opens again.
Baz in Kent
Member
Hi, you have an MiL but no P0401, what fault code(s) do you have?
Thanks.
Thanks.
Fredastaire
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We did a run yesterday with MES connected and the Wife watching figures.
.
Ive now worked out how the LP EGR and it's integral throttle work.
.
The engine is designed to intake exhaust gas post DPF all of the time your foot is on the accelerator pedal.
Foot off the LP EGR is closed and its butterfly throttle is at 0%.
Foot on pedal, the LP EGR opens in varying mm (4.76 max), plus the butterfly operates showing a higher percentage (9-11% often).
The butterfly will partially close to limit the clean air thus it's a mix of clean / dirty air that enters the turbo.
As the LP EGR begins to operate you can see the LP temperature rise from 60° to a varying 70-80° with highest I saw of 92°.
Climbing uphill the EGR is open max mm and the temperature say 70-80° which must mean my cooler is passing exhaust through it's tea strainer gauze. The harder you put your foot down, the higher the temperature,(92° seen once).
.
Downhill; foot off; the LP EGR closes and the EGR temp drops back to 60°
.
What I don't know is whether my cooler is clear or part blocked.
I could do with one of you repeating my running tests and finding out if you see similar temperature effects compared to foot on pedal
I would like to have an idea if my cooler is part blocked or clear.
.
Additional note - my van did a self regen 17 miles before getting home. At home the DPF was reading 17% blocked. I guess that's pretty clean, (?).
.
Ive now worked out how the LP EGR and it's integral throttle work.
.
The engine is designed to intake exhaust gas post DPF all of the time your foot is on the accelerator pedal.
Foot off the LP EGR is closed and its butterfly throttle is at 0%.
Foot on pedal, the LP EGR opens in varying mm (4.76 max), plus the butterfly operates showing a higher percentage (9-11% often).
The butterfly will partially close to limit the clean air thus it's a mix of clean / dirty air that enters the turbo.
As the LP EGR begins to operate you can see the LP temperature rise from 60° to a varying 70-80° with highest I saw of 92°.
Climbing uphill the EGR is open max mm and the temperature say 70-80° which must mean my cooler is passing exhaust through it's tea strainer gauze. The harder you put your foot down, the higher the temperature,(92° seen once).
.
Downhill; foot off; the LP EGR closes and the EGR temp drops back to 60°
.
What I don't know is whether my cooler is clear or part blocked.
I could do with one of you repeating my running tests and finding out if you see similar temperature effects compared to foot on pedal
I would like to have an idea if my cooler is part blocked or clear.
.
Additional note - my van did a self regen 17 miles before getting home. At home the DPF was reading 17% blocked. I guess that's pretty clean, (?).
Last edited:
theoneandonly
Established member
see (basicaly now resolved apart from lingering injector doubts
Ducato DPF errors | FIAT Ducato
I tried to do this but was unsucessful in starting engine pherhaps bottle was too low. I ended up just putting it in the fuel tank.
www.fiatforum.com
Masztiff
Member
Hello
I have same issues with Euro 6 F1agl411D engine with 25.000 Km
The problem solved yet ?
Fredastaire
Member
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In short NO!!!
.
Unless you break your bank account open.
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You can replace injectors and DPF and both EGRs and EGR cooler and MAP and turbo solenoid, cost inc labour £10,000 not forgetting you need software update 0032
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That will remove you problems however lifetime not known.
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You need to do a full read of this entire post to appreciate that many of us are working to work out how the system actually functions and what might help.
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I rather believe that there are different failures which contribute to the fault codes.
.
As stated I've changed the Map, (factory fitted a wrong part); I've changed the turbo vacuum solenoid, these are believed to wear out at circa 25,000 miles. I've also changed to the 'ultra' high spec diesel boosted with Millers diesel additive.
.
I now only see P0401 intermittently.
.
I still suspect that my LP EGR cooler may be partial blocked.
.
Many of us now have a laptop with Multiecuscan to enable interrogation of our Ducatos.
.
Sorry not to have better news.
.
Unless you break your bank account open.
.
You can replace injectors and DPF and both EGRs and EGR cooler and MAP and turbo solenoid, cost inc labour £10,000 not forgetting you need software update 0032
.
That will remove you problems however lifetime not known.
.
You need to do a full read of this entire post to appreciate that many of us are working to work out how the system actually functions and what might help.
.
I rather believe that there are different failures which contribute to the fault codes.
.
As stated I've changed the Map, (factory fitted a wrong part); I've changed the turbo vacuum solenoid, these are believed to wear out at circa 25,000 miles. I've also changed to the 'ultra' high spec diesel boosted with Millers diesel additive.
.
I now only see P0401 intermittently.
.
I still suspect that my LP EGR cooler may be partial blocked.
.
Many of us now have a laptop with Multiecuscan to enable interrogation of our Ducatos.
.
Sorry not to have better news.
theoneandonly
Established member
Mastiff
Have you got the precise error codcode and symptoms.
For assistance on how to use it.
Ducato - Tutorial to Measure specific Engine PIDs (Parameter ID) and Save data for analysis.
This thread is for the general discussion of the Guide Tutorial to Measure specific Engine PIDs (Parameter ID) and Save data for analysis.. Please add to the discussion here. theoneandonly submitted a new guide: Tutorial to Measure specific Engine PIDs (Parameter ID) and Save data for...
www.fiatforum.com
Masztiff
Member
Not good but good news im not alone.My car was make the check engine mode one years ago.First just 200 km then 100 and the last 20 km.In service change many parts turbo,wires,sensors..bid didnt solve the problem.This year change complete new engine (2000 km have) in Fiat Service.Now we drive 25.000 Km and the check engine come.up with these codes.At the Moment just the p401 Code stored 3000 km ago and no Flash Just stored.Now In Fiat service mechanicer say first change the egr Valve,sensor then Turbo.I didnt change these because now buy new engine and just 30.000 km have.in my engine.I would like first log with Multiecuscan and share here my logs.
Masztiff
Member
Thanx .I can log with free version or buy these Software ?Mastiff
Have you got the precise error codcode and symptoms.
For assistance on how to use it.
Ducato - Tutorial to Measure specific Engine PIDs (Parameter ID) and Save data for analysis.
This thread is for the general discussion of the Guide Tutorial to Measure specific Engine PIDs (Parameter ID) and Save data for analysis.. Please add to the discussion here. theoneandonly submitted a new guide: Tutorial to Measure specific Engine PIDs (Parameter ID) and Save data for...
Baz in Kent
Member
Hi, sorry to hear you’re another joining this unhappy group.
Sorry if this is a stupid question but isn’t your new engine under Fiat warranty? I’m maintaining pressure on Fiat to help solve what’s clearly a problem of their causing and would be keen to hear what they say about your issues.
My van has been in the workshop nearly 3 months and I haven’t had the use of it for almost 5 months, with only 12k miles (20k km) when the problem occurred I’ve (so far) refused to allow Fiat to turn their backs on it but will soon need to get it back on the road.
Thanks - and good luck.
theoneandonly
Established member
The free version is very limited, its main use is to prove you have communication with your obd2 device. I bought mine from the UK distributor gendan.usb obdlinkSx I also have a bt vgate dongle. Cheap dongles do not always work with the Fiat extra codes.
