Drum brakes making a comeback?

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Or easy to come by... Had a bit of an argument on the phone the other week with our Mazda dealer telling me the coolant is 'for life' on them, and telling me he can't source the genuine FL22 coolant and that he'd get back to me re: the capacity... He mustn't have known.

I've met the same with genuine Honda coolant. It's blue, like the old stuff you change every year or two but it's long life and only comes in ready mixed containers at great expense. If that hooligan hadn't trashed daughter in law's Jazz I was going to try some standard pink OAT in it this year when I was going to drain and flush it through as i don't think it had been done since new (2008 year of reg). She now has a 2014 Mazda 2 so maybe I'll do a little gentle inquiring before long as at 10 years it's probably due a change? If thoroughly flushed through though I can't think why a standard OAT wouldn't do?

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I like the cars that have both, Discs for performance and drums for the handbrake.
My old RangeRover had a transmission brake which was essentially a drum and if you think Drums are reliable and easy then try working on one of these old transmission brakes. they are the worst.

We did a lot of farmers Land Rovers and from time to time you'd get one with a snapped half shaft because the driver had applied the handbrake while the vehicle was still moving. For those not familiar with the setup, these older Land Rovers had a transmission brake which was effectively a drum brake on the prop shaft to the rear axle which, when applied, stopped the prop shaft turning. The half shafts must have been the weakest part of the drivetrain.

 

[rmjbn1]

And then there's this curiosity from BRM.
Transmission disc brake with no brakes on the rear wheels.
The worst of both worlds?

 

[JayAre]

And then there's this curiosity from BRM.
Transmission disc brake with no brakes on the rear wheels.
The worst of both worlds?

that looks an old racer!
guessing this was tried to remove the risk of potentially high speed +fatal rear wheel lockup (no anti-lock in those days?)

 

[AndyRKett]

We did a lot of farmers Land Rovers and from time to time you'd get one with a snapped half shaft because the driver had applied the handbrake while the vehicle was still moving. For those not familiar with the setup, these older Land Rovers had a transmission brake which was effectively a drum brake on the prop shaft to the rear axle which, when applied, stopped the prop shaft turning. The half shafts must have been the weakest part of the drivetrain.

MOT handbrake tests done very carefully with the car on all 4 wheels and a special instrument in the cab to measure the deceleration. Drive the car slowly and pull the hand brake on, generally speaking non of them would pass a conventional handbrake test if you could test it that way. The transmission brake on most landrovers was terrible and there are a lot of aftermarket upgrades you can buy for them, including disc brake conversions

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

If memory serves FL22 is 10 year first change then 5 years at each change after.

Thanks Steven, That's very handy to know.

 

[rmjbn1]

that looks an old racer!
guessing this was tried to remove the risk of potentially high speed +fatal rear wheel lockup (no anti-lock in those days?)

Aye, possibly. If so they failed! I think the main benefit they were after was reduced unsprung (and overall) weight.

BRM persevered with the idea for a surprisingly long time in late 50's F1, despite the heat from the brake cooking the transmission, and the vibration from the transmission shaking the brake to bits.

Not untypical results (by some miracle nobody was hurt):

 

[rmjbn1]

I'll use a Colin Chapman connection to get back on topic...
...of all the fine models of Lotus/Caterham etc 7, my personal favourite is probably the least powerful one, the 160/170 with Suzuki three cylinder kei car running gear including rear axle with drum brakes.
Maybe that's why they also fit them with steel wheels as there's nowt to show off. I think they look great - lighter than alloys too.

 

[AndyRKett]

I’m not sure you can really compare the weird and wonderful stuff they fitted to old F1 cars, to anything modern.

Tyrell fitted 6 wheels to one car, and on another occasion in racing they invented the fan car which huge fans sucking it down to the ground.

If I sprung weight was a factor then this was solved massively in the likes of many Jaguars over the years which had inboar disc brakes between the diff and the drive shafts which was used on all sorts of other cars.

I suspect the truth was more about saving weight as one brake rather than two, to brake two wheels, but if it was not a limited slip diff then you could in theory lock one wheel up and not the other making the car switch ends rather rapidly.
I’m not aware of anything like that being use on a road going car.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I'll use a Colin Chapman connection to get back on topic...
...of all the fine models of Lotus/Caterham etc 7, my personal favourite is probably the least powerful one, the 160/170 with Suzuki three cylinder kei car running gear including rear axle with drum brakes.
Maybe that's why they also fit them with steel wheels as there's nowt to show off. I think they look great - lighter than alloys too.

I see what you mean, all car and no "bling". My sort of thing definitely - Did they make an estate version?

 

[vexorg]

The discs are then free to work without any additional mechanics installed in them which affects their reliability. calipers are simple, don't need changing and are easy to work on, pads easy to swap out.

Other than the seized roll pins that vauxhall like to use on that setup...

 

[SB1500]

Oh heck we're not doing coolant "for life" as well as gear oil now are we?
If they could make a start on petrol for life that would be nice

They say in the manual 'once at ten years, then every five years', but the dealer wasn't having it. I told him it was in the manual, he said "is it a UK manual?" - it was. He tried telling me that they've never had to fill up a Mazda 2's coolant in the 30+ years of being a Mazda dealer (not even as part of some sort of repair allegedly) hence why he didn't know.

Anyway, I messaged Mazda UK on Facebook - they told me, 4.9L servicing fill. Some MX5 specialist site online sells the genuine FL22 stuff, a pound or two more than the dealer but given the experience on the phone, the website will be getting our business. Need to order enough for the 2 and the 6 estate.

Sent off the form the other day in work when I was bored, to the same dealer stating they still haven't gotten back to me. 20 mins later, phone call, he said it's 5.1L dry fill (I bet in his mind, he found it funny to tell me the dry fill when quite clearly, it'll be a service fill).

I just don't buy 'for life' fluids. Still, could be worse, aren't there some brands out there not even making fill / drain holes? I know BMW made cars without oil dipsticks depending completely on some sensor... Idiotic to me, but then the car brands I buy tend to have to factor in practicality / ease of maintenance into their designs and not things like ... locking people out of diagnostic data or paying the dealer to activate changed bulbs lol

 

[SB1500]

I've met the same with genuine Honda coolant. It's blue, like the old stuff you change every year or two but it's long life and only comes in ready mixed containers at great expense. If that hooligan hadn't trashed daughter in law's Jazz I was going to try some standard pink OAT in it this year when I was going to drain and flush it through as i don't think it had been done since new (2008 year of reg). She now has a 2014 Mazda 2 so maybe I'll do a little gentle inquiring before long as at 10 years it's probably due a change? If thoroughly flushed through though I can't think why a standard OAT wouldn't do?

I don't mind using the genuine stuff to be honest, for all that I'll need to hopefully replace it, it's not too bad. It's quite difficult I found on Autodoc and Halfords too to figure out what stuff works with what cars.. I find the REG lookup fairly useless on that. Some sites use the colour as if it's some sort of guide, but I found that it's more the likes of OAT or code / brand name of the unique mix rather than the colour sometimes.

We had a 2004 Corsa and my mum never had it serviced in five years as far as I know... the head gasket went on it, most likely from the coolant never being changed and going too acidic and rusting from the inside out. So now, on all of my cars I've had it changed 4/5 years old and will do it on her 2019 Mazda 2 now in November with the next oil change.

OAT probably would do, used that on the 2005 Panda loads of times, think it already had pink OAT coolant in it by the time I bought it. Fiat recommends some product called Paraflu I think, not too bad on Shop4Parts. For a once every 4/5 year job, I'd say might be a little easier to use that. But on an older car like my 05 Panda, we had it apart for all sorts of repairs so much that we'd be draining it and refilling it and it got quite a few fresh loads of coolant in the three years I had it, readily available at Halfords too

 

[JayAre]

not things like ... locking people out of diagnostic data or paying the dealer to activate changed bulbs

seems like once-premium quality car brands have sunk to the lows of the worst excesses in the property world (selling new housing developments as leasehold then flogging off for multi-millions the freeholds to profiteering private equity with index-linked annual rent rises that soon exceed £10k pa for each home - for no benefit!)

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I just don't buy 'for life' fluids. Still, could be worse, aren't there some brands out there not even making fill / drain holes? I know BMW made cars without oil dipsticks depending completely on some sensor... Idiotic to me, but then the car brands I buy tend to have to factor in practicality / ease of maintenance into their designs and not things like ... locking people out of diagnostic data or paying the dealer to activate changed bulbs lol

Not just BMW. My boy's Audi A4 doesn't have one and nowhere to put one if you could get one. shows a fancy display of level on the dashboard info screen.

I don't believe in "for life" anything. I believe some don't even give you a sump drain plug. The Smart Car I understand needs a pump which sucks it out through the dipstick hole. I don't like that because I refuse to believe it's as likely for solids and/or "gungy" deposits to be removed as they would be when a sump plug is removed.

 

[SB1500]

Not just BMW. My boy's Audi A4 doesn't have one and nowhere to put one if you could get one. shows a fancy display of level on the dashboard info screen.

I don't believe in "for life" anything. I believe some don't even give you a sump drain plug. The Smart Car I understand needs a pump which sucks it out through the dipstick hole. I don't like that because I refuse to believe it's as likely for solids and/or "gungy" deposits to be removed as they would be when a sump plug is removed.

The colour of the transmission fluid from the Lexus was pure black versus the reddish purple in January after 7 years! And the dreadful noise the thing makes when you need to try and move fast, leads me to believe that there's no way metal isn't getting shredded in there, on at least a microscopic level over time.

That's crazy about Smart - but Mercedes engineering if I've ever heard of it! On the other side of the spectrum from Mercedes... I watched someone stripping down the 2ZR-FXE (Prius engine/CT engine, Hybrid one) on YouTube... he couldn't get the oil dipstick pipe off, he hung the engine freely from a hoist just holding on to the dipstick housing / tube.... thinking he'd pull it off and the thing hung from it bizarrely!

I remember test driving a Smart car in 2017 at the Mercedes dealership in Belfast. Still blown away by the quality, and brown-nosing service the sales people give the largely elder viewers in there at the time. And the fact they seemingly had every Mecedes model on display indoors, in contrast to my Fiat dealer at the time who couldn't seem to get Panda's in! (you'd think the cars were endangered too!). They had a full on, real coffee bar (steaming machines and people in aprons). And from what I hear, they do things like buy your wife flowers etc when you come to buy or service your car. Crazy 'luxury' experience. Then there was the Smart part at the back, much less serious, more colourful and even the sales guy who came out seemed much more 'normal dealer'. Fun to test drive the Smart, strange turning around and having the window right behind your head. When I got in my 2005 Panda, and looked back, it felt like a bus with the room! It was the safety that put me off the Smart car, otherwise I liked the whole concept. But later on learnt the extent to which they're basically Renault Twingo's and that stubbed out all desire in ever getting one.

They do release an entertaining marketing stunt video every few years don't they though? The one where they crash a Smart into an S-Class, usually painted bright orange. To show how strong is it. Though I think the shock-going-through-your-body is the killer there, but nice to know the car itself, will stay in shape.. right?! haha

 

[The Panda Nut]

I've got VCDS (used to be VAG-COM) but my interface is old and anyway, I understand only some of the modules can now be accessed on the newer cars without a link to VAG. The simple solution for me has been to buy a service package to cover the warranty period and after that I may do simple stuff like routine servicing and brake work but leave anything I can't manage to the lads at AVW. However the way things are going just now I'm not confident my general health is going to be good enough to allow me to do stuff like this. Today's "fiddling" with the Scala really took it out of me. I'm hoping that once the hip is replaced I'll be in a better place - just have to wait and see.

I hope so Jock. Theres a pretty good chance I think.

 

[The Panda Nut]

The colour of the transmission fluid from the Lexus was pure black versus the reddish purple in January after 7 years! And the dreadful noise the thing makes when you need to try and move fast, leads me to believe that there's no way metal isn't getting shredded in there, on at least a microscopic level over time.

That's crazy about Smart - but Mercedes engineering if I've ever heard of it! On the other side of the spectrum from Mercedes... I watched someone stripping down the 2ZR-FXE (Prius engine/CT engine, Hybrid one) on YouTube... he couldn't get the oil dipstick pipe off, he hung the engine freely from a hoist just holding on to the dipstick housing / tube.... thinking he'd pull it off and the thing hung from it bizarrely!

I remember test driving a Smart car in 2017 at the Mercedes dealership in Belfast. Still blown away by the quality, and brown-nosing service the sales people give the largely elder viewers in there at the time. And the fact they seemingly had every Mecedes model on display indoors, in contrast to my Fiat dealer at the time who couldn't seem to get Panda's in! (you'd think the cars were endangered too!). They had a full on, real coffee bar (steaming machines and people in aprons). And from what I hear, they do things like buy your wife flowers etc when you come to buy or service your car. Crazy 'luxury' experience. Then there was the Smart part at the back, much less serious, more colourful and even the sales guy who came out seemed much more 'normal dealer'. Fun to test drive the Smart, strange turning around and having the window right behind your head. When I got in my 2005 Panda, and looked back, it felt like a bus with the room! It was the safety that put me off the Smart car, otherwise I liked the whole concept. But later on learnt the extent to which they're basically Renault Twingo's and that stubbed out all desire in ever getting one.

They do release an entertaining marketing stunt video every few years don't they though? The one where they crash a Smart into an S-Class, usually painted bright orange. To show how strong is it. Though I think the shock-going-through-your-body is the killer there, but nice to know the car itself, will stay in shape.. right?! haha

Saving grace for the Smart car is the engine is really a Mitsubishi. Mine seemed to keep itsoil clean. Its a daft idea and is asking for long term sludge build up

 

[StevenRB45]

Had an interesting comparison between 2 effectively identical cars during the week.

While ours was in having it's annual 3 or 4 day sabbatical away from us we had an in most respects identical courtesy car.

However being the none turbo car without a spare wheel it had drum rears and weighed a good 3/4s of a person less.

Due to parts bin sharing the front brakes are the same with the rear being the only difference. Cars were also on the same wheel design and tyre size. They even had similar mileage on the brakes with the courtesy car having 3.5k from new and my discs and pads having been on about 3k.

While this thread has covered the negatives quite extensively...have to say in terms of brakes it was a no contest, the drum set up gave a soft pedal feel with little in the way of bite.

You'd get used to it but if you get into the discs hard the stop is brutal thankfully not had much course to use it over the years but it's also nice to know it's available, disc and drum car just didn't have same feeling of just stopping power in reserve.

That and the drum brake handbrake felt like I was going to break it for whatever reason it was just strangely limp after the action of the disc handbrake. Possibly just the lack of a strong indication that you've engaged the shoe material against the drum compared the short travel disc set up. Kinda felt it reached to the ceiling....but much newer car so probably fine.

So I think I've arrived at the discs are a pain in the arse...but kinda like the turbo engine itself probably worth the aggro/additional maintenance.

 

[vexorg]

So I think I've arrived at the discs are a pain in the arse...but kinda like the turbo engine itself probably worth the aggro/additional maintenance.

The rear discs still give less aggro on all the cars I've had, so win-win!!!