I used to on the Citroën but like I say it didn't help...but I think the caliper sliders were stuck so it was probably a lost cause.
Drum brakes making a comeback?
- Thread starter Pugglt Auld Jock
- Start date
Currently reading:
Drum brakes making a comeback?
I used to on the Citroën but like I say it didn't help...but I think the caliper sliders were stuck so it was probably a lost cause.
Just abuse the brakes every now and again with some "spirited" driving will soon clear them up.
the 169 I had 14+ years had new discs all round about 5 years ago at around 80k miles which is probably reasonable(?) and I did do this regular “h/brake clean” for, again, probably about 5 years (having read some motoring article on this issue). It was part ex’d in May (the discs still looked good, nice ‘n’ shiny all round) for my current 312/9 2016 4x4 with 51k which needed new discs all round (probably not reasonable
)
OP
OP
Not been my experience. Whip the drums off at every service - so just once a year - remove the dust and make sure everything is working right, which it usually is, and "Bob's you auntie"! Rear discs corrode because they rarely do much work and modern "open" road wheel designs let the rain and salt and general road dirt get at them. Also, once they are a few years old, the hand brake mechanisms start to be afflicted with seizure. I've had a lot of trouble over the years with VAG rear calipers with this problem. Also absolutely hate disc calipers with motorized hand brake actuators. Mind you the older type with electric motor driven cables are even worse and often terribly expensive to sort. One of the nice things about the Scala is that, although it has rear discs, at least it has a conventional manual handbrake lever between the seats. So, personally, I'm very happy to have to sort out the occasional problem with a drum rear brake.
Last edited:
With drums everything is accessible and you can finagle things to get it nicely set up and working. With discs everything is inside the caliper and the only thing you have access to is usually the handbrake lever on the back of the caliper which is usually keyed with no adjustment. So if the caliper has an issue with the handbrake as I had with my Punto Evo the only option is a new caliper, or completely overhaul the old one. Often a new caliper is easier and works out cheaper if you take the cost of time into account. it makes rear discs often impossible to work on if the handbrake isn't working.
My golf also has a handbrake lever, can't be too many cars now that still have a basic handbrake.
I like a proper lever for a handbrake, as you have much more control over it, especially if for example doing a hill start. Modern electric handbrakes offer no control at all, you either roll back or end up riding the clutch if in any situation do don't exactly and precisely match the your clutch control to the incline, engine speed and timing of the electronic release.
Often these electronic systems release automatically once you have come off the clutch enough but in doing so always ride the clutch to some degree.
Definitely not a perfect system.
vexorg
Prominent member
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2021
- Messages
- 2,228
- Points
- 678
Depends on the system. The citroen one is a dream to use, just so natural the way it handles the brake, like you wouldn't even know it's there.
Unlike the antara we had, that sometimes didn't detect you wanted to drive off at all and a rather sudden stall as it fought against you.
Then the nissan hybrid is also really good. They have programmed the car to be like an old school auto box that creeps forward if no pedals are touched, even on a hill. It has extreme hill start assist, as in press the brakes when stopped it will hold the car forever until you touch the accellerator then it just glides away.
Another good thing about rear discs, no springs to swear at when reassembling!!
Nothing wrong with drums, until the 12+ year mark when they get a bit clogged up inside but that's a good service period between giving them attention.
Thought they always put rear discs on diesels (even on small cars) because of weight. Weight being one of the EVs big drawbacks... but perhaps the energy regeneration / engine braking pull all of the time takes the load off the need for rear discs that in the past, diesels didn't have as strongly.
Nice to see VAG using the simplest solution where it is appropriate for a change though, rather than over engineering it and making it a nightmare to work on like usual.
Thought they always put rear discs on diesels (even on small cars) because of weight. Weight being one of the EVs big drawbacks... but perhaps the energy regeneration / engine braking pull all of the time takes the load off the need for rear discs that in the past, diesels didn't have as strongly.
Nice to see VAG using the simplest solution where it is appropriate for a change though, rather than over engineering it and making it a nightmare to work on like usual.
Knowing VW you'll probably need to put it on a diagbox to tell it you've put rear shoes in or it'll put a warning light on...
vexorg
Prominent member
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2021
- Messages
- 2,228
- Points
- 678
an expensive diagbox
OP
OP
I've got VCDS (used to be VAG-COM) but my interface is old and anyway, I understand only some of the modules can now be accessed on the newer cars without a link to VAG. The simple solution for me has been to buy a service package to cover the warranty period and after that I may do simple stuff like routine servicing and brake work but leave anything I can't manage to the lads at AVW. However the way things are going just now I'm not confident my general health is going to be good enough to allow me to do stuff like this. Today's "fiddling" with the Scala really took it out of me. I'm hoping that once the hip is replaced I'll be in a better place - just have to wait and see.
I should say the comment was tongue in cheek...
You'd hope you can change the rear brake shoes without a computer...and with Jocks mileage and the general longevity of rear drums the chances of him finding out in the next decade or so are pretty slim.
You'd hope you can change the rear brake shoes without a computer...and with Jocks mileage and the general longevity of rear drums the chances of him finding out in the next decade or so are pretty slim.
OP
OP
Oh yes Steven, I took it as such. Mind you the way things are going I wouldn't be surprised if Humans will have to do a "tummy reset" after a visit to the loo or the human brain might store DTCs which the quack will use to diagnose ailments.
The Ibiza was going to need a set of rear discs at it's next service so 32,000 miles and 7 years old. The front's might have taken a set of pads. Becky (our 2010 Panda) was still on her original rear shoes when we (combination of self and Kenny's merry men) did the rear brake overhaul on her last year. The linings weren't worn out by any means but one of the linings had come away from the metal shoe and the others were showing signs of following suit in the near future.
As my late dad would say, 'the minds still agile, but the body's damn well fragile' Jock.
Know the feeling. jobs that a few years ago were just a '5 minute job' suddenly become the 'how much longer are you going to be, you've been out there over an hour now!'
OP
OP
Oh yes. Took me a good couple of hours to do the wheels and slap a bit of copaslip on the exposed threads this morning. Would have done it in well under an hour a few years ago. A wee while ago I wasn't ready to accept it but now the pain is making me tempur my ambition. I definitely need to slow down a bit.As my late dad would say, 'the minds still agile, but the body's damn well fragile' Jock.
Know the feeling. jobs that a few years ago were just a '5 minute job' suddenly become the 'how much longer are you going to be, you've been out there over an hour now!'
Maybe? Just old, I guess. Mazda MX5 in my case. Not claiming it's a precision-engineered performance bit of kit. But genuine Mazda parts certainly ain't cheap!
Handbrake cable pulls on a pivot with a return spring, pivot gets sticky with mud and rust, spring can't release the handbrake so it sticks on.
Just a little bit at first, so you don't notice it, whilst it happily grinds away only the inner pad which you can't see.
I'd also rather have rear drums.
Last edited:
Or easy to come by... Had a bit of an argument on the phone the other week with our Mazda dealer telling me the coolant is 'for life' on them, and telling me he can't source the genuine FL22 coolant and that he'd get back to me re: the capacity... He mustn't have known.
I like the cars that have both, Discs for performance and drums for the handbrake.
My old RangeRover had a transmission brake which was essentially a drum and if you think Drums are reliable and easy then try working on one of these old transmission brakes. they are the worst.
My Saab along with quite a few other cars like the Vectra which used the same platform, and a few performance cars like Porsche, use a drum in disc system where the inside of the disc, centre hub acts as a drum for the handbrake, and then the outer disc for the foot brake. Works well and avoids reliability issues on both side. Normally the drum hand brake lasts forever and needs only occasional checking as it is never used when the car is moving and so the pads don't wear down.
The discs are then free to work without any additional mechanics installed in them which affects their reliability. calipers are simple, don't need changing and are easy to work on, pads easy to swap out. The discs usually come off without any hassle as again there is no grove worn into the inside drum part as they are never worn down. While it sounds more complicated, it ends up being much more reliable.
My old RangeRover had a transmission brake which was essentially a drum and if you think Drums are reliable and easy then try working on one of these old transmission brakes. they are the worst.
My Saab along with quite a few other cars like the Vectra which used the same platform, and a few performance cars like Porsche, use a drum in disc system where the inside of the disc, centre hub acts as a drum for the handbrake, and then the outer disc for the foot brake. Works well and avoids reliability issues on both side. Normally the drum hand brake lasts forever and needs only occasional checking as it is never used when the car is moving and so the pads don't wear down.
The discs are then free to work without any additional mechanics installed in them which affects their reliability. calipers are simple, don't need changing and are easy to work on, pads easy to swap out. The discs usually come off without any hassle as again there is no grove worn into the inside drum part as they are never worn down. While it sounds more complicated, it ends up being much more reliable.
Oh heck we're not doing coolant "for life" as well as gear oil now are we?
If they could make a start on petrol for life that would be nice
If memory serves FL22 is 10 year first change then 5 years at each change after.
OP
OP
Much the same sticking problems on the VAG stuff, better on later cars though. One "cure" which worked well on my boy's Fabia was to fit the return springs from the Sharan (other varients like Galaxy also had them) which roughly doubled the return action and overcame the reluctance to release.
